Who's right?

[JerryL]

No. I doesn't say they "believed" from the beginning. It says they were chosen from the beginning.


2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth,

That was my point. It was a question to you. When were they chosen? You said they were chosen because they believed, not from the beginning as it is stated.

They were chosen because they believed the truth.

 

[Amy.G]

That was my point. It was a question to you.

Sorry, I don't get your point.

They were chosen because they believed the truth.

"Chosen from the beginning through sanctification of the Spirit".

"Chosen from the beginning through belief in the truth."

They were not chosen apart from their faith.

 

[JerryL]

Sorry, I don't get your point.

They were chosen because they believed the truth.

"Chosen from the beginning through sanctification of the Spirit".

"Chosen from the beginning through belief in the truth."

They were not chosen apart from their faith.

Would "from the beginning" be before the foundations of the world? This is key, when did the choosing happen?

 

[Allan]

No. I doesn't say they "believed" from the beginning. It says they were chosen from the beginning.


2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth,

Good Amy.

They were chosen to salvation and the mode through which God would save them is the work of the Spirit and faith. This is not however giving a presupposed order but just stating a fact about the two points that make a person saved. The cleaning and setting apart of the Holy Spirit - literally making them holy, and the faith excersized by person who God is drawing. It is a statement of fact concerning the two things involved and not a statement of order about those two things.

No man can come to God unless God first initiate it via drawing, but no man will be saved apart from faith.

- We are saved by grace through faith -
- Therefore it is of faith that it might be by grace.. -
- through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth -

 

[Allan]

Would "from the beginning" be before the foundations of the world? This is key, when did the choosing happen?

Does 'before the foundation of the world' mean that God could not or does not know all thing at once, Or as scripture puts it - He knows the end from the beginning.

Remember, with God there is no 'before'. He knows all things presently.

 

[JerryL]

God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth,

Seems He chose them for salvation from the beginning and the second(underlinded)part is how He did it.

 

[Amy.G]

Would "from the beginning" be before the foundations of the world? This is key, when did the choosing happen?

We were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world. All those who have faith in Christ are chosen for salvation.

 

[JerryL]

It says they were chosen from the beginning.

You have your answer, God chose them from the beginning. You are a Calvinist and don't really know it fully yet. God gave us the ability to believe the truth of Christ.

Php 1:29 For to you it has been granted for Christ's sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake,

He grants you the ability to believe.

 

[Allan]

[/U]Seems He chose them for salvation from the beginning and the second(underlinded)part is how He did it.

There is no question He chose them, and that before the world was created.

However the passage you keep stepping all around is that the plan to save those chosen is also involved as to why they are chosen
God decrees nothing apart from His knowledge but they work in tandom one with another.

God knew what He desired - to save man that would fall
God knew He would have to do it by His grace - but in order for it to be by grace it 'had' to be by faith. That is what scripture states so I can't argue.

God could have saved everyone by works, and in so doing would know all that would be such. However God chose to save by grace through faith, and knew all those who would be such at the moment of His decree to save by grace (His working) through faith (man's belief)

It was His operation but since man choose to fall, man also has to choose to believe. Otherwise salvation would be only by grace.

 

[JerryL]

There is no question He chose them, and that before the world was created.

However the passage you keep stepping all around is that the plan to save those chosen is also involved as to why they are chosen
God decrees nothing apart from His knowledge but they work in tandom one with another.

God knew what He desired - to save man that would fall
God knew He would have to do it by His grace - but in order for it to be by grace it 'had' to be by faith. That is what scripture states so I can't argue.

God could have saved everyone by works, and in so doing would know all that would be such. However God chose to save by grace through faith, and knew all those who would be such at the moment of His decree to save by grace (His working) through faith (man's belief)

It was His operation but since man choose to fall, man also has to choose to believe. Otherwise salvation would be only by grace.

So, according to the Philipians verse, isn't God granting the ability to believe?

 

[Amy.G]

You have your answer, God chose them from the beginning. You are a Calvinist and don't really know it fully yet. God gave us the ability to believe the truth of Christ.

He grants you the ability to believe.

That is not what that verse means. Paul is saying that they have not only been given the privelege of believing in Christ, they are also given the privelge of suffering for His sake. If you believe, you will suffer also.

 

[JerryL]

That is not what that verse means. Paul is saying that they have not only been given the privelege of believing in Christ, they are also given the privelge of suffering for His sake. If you believe, you will suffer also.

I'm sorry Amy, but that isn't what it says. It says they were granted the ability to believe. It says nothing about "given the privledge" to believe.

Php 1:29 For to you it has been granted for Christ's sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake,

This verse cannot be made to say any other thing than what it says.

 

[Amy.G]

I'm sorry Amy, but that isn't what it says. It says they were granted the ability to believe.

This verse cannot be made to say any other thing than what it says.

The verse doesn't say anything about their ability. Just that God granted their belief. He allowed it, accepted it. It is a privilege to believe.

 

[JerryL]

The verse doesn't say anything about their ability. Just that God granted their belief. He allowed it, accepted it. It is a privilege to believe.

It says He granted them to believe. God granted, for Christ's sake, for them to believe in Him.

 

[Amy.G]

It says He granted them to believe. God granted, for Christ's sake, for them to believe in Him.

So God believes for you?

 

[Allan]

So, according to the Philipians verse, isn't God granting the ability to believe?

Of course He is. He is allowing men do something that without His intervention no one would even know they need God much less any truth about Him.

God has granted that all men may believe. That verse is speaking not that God only allowed them to believe but that their belief comes from God's allowance of it.

Christ "lighteth every man that cometh into the world"
Though God was the one drawing people in the Nation of Israel to Christ (John 6) It is now Christ who draws all men unto Himself
And that the Spirit of God is not to only to the elect to convict of Sin, His righteousness, and the Judgment to come, but to the world to do this.
And it is God who "who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."
Because He is our propitiation but not ours only but the sins of the whole world.


Yes, God has granted that we might believe the truths He reveals.
Though as I stated, it is not refering to an only situation but speaking to those who have believed because of God's grace in allowing us to not only know about Him but to believe and to come to Him because of His amazing grace.

 

[JerryL]

So God believes for you?

He chose me and allowed me the ability to believe in Christ. Something a sinful man will never do.

Rom 3:11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;

I must head out for work, have a good week all.

 

[Amy.G]

He chose me and allowed me the ability to believe in Christ. Something a sinful man will never do.

Rom 3:11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;

That is why God comes to us. :thumbs:


You have a good week too, Jerry

 

[Allan]

I'm sorry Amy, but that isn't what it says. It says they were granted the ability to believe. It says nothing about "given the privledge" to believe.

Wrong. It says nothing of the sort - in refernce to 'ability'. Yes, priviledge and that priviledge as Amy pointed out corrisponds to being allowed to partake in His sufferings as well.

It has nothing to do with ability. That is a presupposition brought to the text.

This verse cannot be made to say any other thing than what it says.

But your doing just that

 

[Allan]

Rom 3:11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;

That is why God comes to us. :thumbs:


You have a good week too, Jerry

Exactly Amy!