Who's right?

[JerryL]

One more verse before I leave.

Joh 6:37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.

 

[Allan]

One more verse before I leave.

What about it? No one has denied it but in fact affirm it.

No is saved that God does not know and has not given to Christ.

 

[Amy.G]

One more verse before I leave.

Joh 6:37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.


Who are the ones the Father has given Christ but those who have believed God? Noah, Abraham. "They will all be taught of God". If you have rejected the Father, you will not be given to the Son. If you believe God the Father, you will seek the Savior. And He will never cast you out.

I think this is clearly seen considering Jesus was speaking to Jews who only knew of OT scriptures and the promise of the Messiah. Only those who believed God and the scriptures would recognized their Messiah. (They know the shepherds voice and follow Him.)

 

[skypair]

Sky: I'm just wondering what you have to say about Paul's statement in 2 Thess. 2:13?

"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:"

I have dealt with this verse many times. There is an "equation" to it: We were chosen before creation through (because of) sanctification of our spirit (and that because) we believed (in our soul) the truth.

Think about it --- belief led to sanctification led to ultimate salvarion -- glorification (1Thes 5:23).

Let me ask you -- do you see the qualifications of salvation that Paul mentions? "Chose you THROUGH?" If you had never believed, you would never have been sanctified. If you had never been sanctified, you'd have never been saved! God would NOT have "chosen" you!

skypair

 

[skypair]

It's more like Calvinistic theology looks at God as the effectuator of both justification and sanctification; Arminian theology looks at God as the effectuator of sanctification and man as the trigger of justification.

That is an amazingly insightful observation, Ares! And I agree. God effectuates (has a plan for, predestines) our sanctification. But God cannot save us Alone -- by Himself. He requires our BELIEF. Go back and look at the verse.

If we attribute to God due credit for our sanctification (Philippians 1:6; 2:13), giving all glory to God for giving us daily faith, molding us into the image of His Son, and working all things for our good; why can't we attribute to God due credit for the same faith wherein we came to Him in the first place?

We can. It's just that we can't attribute is EXCLUSIVELY to God. Who is it that has to do the believing, Ares? Does God actually "force" us to believe? Or is it our will that He changes? or do we change our own will? You have to answer this. Is your salvation your choice or God's? Do you assume you are saved or do you actually have to commit something to God for salvation?

Why is it that some must stubbornly clench onto the idea of "original" saving faith coming independently from man operating synergistically with God; yet they are more than happy to give God all the credit for making everything good happen after that?

I have offered this elsewhere on BB. Perhaps you didn't see it. Man is in charge of his own SOUL -- who is on the throne of his life. Do you not find that to be true? Man has his own ideas about how he will save himself. He has his own "way" -- his own salvation "paradigm" that doesn't include God. You accuse the free willers and the Catholics, with whom was the original dispute, of this. In actuality, no one changes a man's mind but that man! Nobody changes the orientation of his soul but that man! It's like a proprietary formula for Coca-Cola or a proprietarty OS for Apple Computers.. Did God choose them or was that man's choice?

Why can't God get all the credit for everything that has to do with you and God? Is not the same righteous faith in the [God of the] Gospel the same faith in the God of the Christian life? Isn't it all the effectual work of the Holy Spirit?

I understand your frustration, Ares. It would be so simple if "All the world is a stage and we only actors," our "bit parts" already assigned to us. But you know better, don't you?

skypair

 

[Rippon]

I have offered this elsewhere on BB. Perhaps you didn't see it. Man is in charge of his own SOUL -- who is on the throne of his life. Do you not find that to be true? Man has his own ideas about how he will save himself. He has his own "way" -- his own salvation "paradigm" that doesn't include God. You accuse the free willers and the Catholics, with whom was the original dispute, of this. In actuality, no one changes a man's mind but that man! Nobody changes the orientation of his soul but that man! It's like a proprietary formula for Coca-Cola or a proprietarty OS for Apple Computers.. Did God choose them or was that man's choice

skypair

**Insult removed**

"No one changes a man's mind but that man!" WOW. That's pretty upfront of you to type.Even your non-Cal allies must cringe at these kinds of statements from you Sp.The Lord doesn't enter the picture at all in your philosophy.It's such a shame.

 

[skypair]

More foolishness courtesy of Sp. Utter nonsensical ruminations.

"No one changes a man's mind but that man!" WOW. That's pretty upfront of you to type.Even your non-Cal allies must cringe at these kinds of statements from you Sp.The Lord doesn't enter the picture at all in your philosophy.It's such a shame.

More personal attack with no even attempt at a reasoned reply from you. :tear:

Changing one's mind: Here's how it works. In the evil direction, it's lust, sin, death. It wasn't God that lusted -- it was you.

In salvation it goes like this: hear, believe, live. If you don't hear it, you can't believe (change your mind). If you don't believe, you certainly aren't regenerated/alive.

skypair

 

[JerryL]

Joh 6:37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.


Who are the ones the Father has given Christ but those who have believed God? Noah, Abraham. "They will all be taught of God". If you have rejected the Father, you will not be given to the Son. If you believe God the Father, you will seek the Savior. And He will never cast you out.

I think this is clearly seen considering Jesus was speaking to Jews who only knew of OT scriptures and the promise of the Messiah. Only those who believed God and the scriptures would recognized their Messiah. (They know the shepherds voice and follow Him.)

Quite a twisting act there Amy.

 

[skypair]

Since James declines to respond on this, I'll ask here...

I am totally unfamiliar with this notion that one can have one's mind changed (or heart changed or "heart opened") ...

a) without having an original POV,

b) without having some new information, and

c) without believing that information more than one one believes one's original POV.

This seems very close to what the Bible says as well except in those places that one misconstrues the context or text. Hear it: "How shall they believe who have not heard? And how shall they here except someone go?"

Now as I told James, I have heard one Calvinist on another board ("tron" on ZB) tell me that an infant being baptized while the preacher says the right words is "born again" or "regenerated" right there and this is very close to the Augustinian and Catholic view of infant baptism from original sin. I guess there is some metaphyiscal sense in which this occurs and if anyone has more information on this, I would love to hear it.

skypair

 

[webdog]

Quite a twisting act there Amy.

Really no different than the calvinist interpretation of "All those who don't come to Christ were not given by the Father".

 

[JerryL]

Really no different than the calvinist interpretation of "All those who don't come to Christ were not given by the Father".

Calvinist would just let it speak for itself, let it say just what it says.

BTW, a proper noun is to be capitalized, whether you like the person or not.

 

[skypair]

JerryL,

"Christians have a way of crucifying living saints, worshipping dead saints, and shooting wounded saints."
Adrian Rogers

I appreciate your quoting AR. Perhaps you could study his theology and learn that he, too, believes that when the gospel is preached, WHOSOEVER WILL, can hear, believe, and accept (And he was not a "big fan" of Calvinism. In fact, he excoriated it!).

skypair

 

[webdog]

Calvinist would just let it speak for itself, let it say just what it says.

BTW, a proper noun is to be capitalized, whether you like the person or not.

If the "Calvinist" (better? ) were to let it speak for itself, it would never be a proof text to use.

 

[JerryL]

JerryL,

I appreciate your quoting AR. Perhaps you could study his theology and learn that he, too, believes that when the gospel is preached, WHOSOEVER WILL, can hear, believe, and accept (And he was not a "big fan" of Calvinism. In fact, he excoriated it!).

skypair

I like hearing many non-Calvinists as well as Calvinists. When I get to Heaven, I'll hug all necks, Calvinist and non-Calvinists alike. Will you do the same or are you of the breed that thinks no Calvinists will be there?

 

[skypair]

I like hearing many non-Calvinists as well as Calvinists. When I get to Heaven, I'll hug all necks, Calvinist and non-Calvinists alike. Will you do the same or are you of the breed that thinks no Calvinists will be there?

I will, indeed! The "test" will be over! The "answers" supplied! All mistakes regretted at the Bema and then forgotten -- consumed in flames! We will love each other in the "unity" that Christ meant for us to find here and now, Eph 4:13 -- in the "knowledge and faith of JESUS CHRIST," not of men.

Right now God is looking down at His "teen children" and wondering about the "friends" some of us have chosen. Ever notice how easily teens are led away by their peers? One of the most telling evidences is that these teens seem to have their own vocabulary that makes it hard for teens and parents to communicate with each other, doesn't it. I can still remember when my son told me this girl he knew was "bad" and then, when I looked askance of him, said, "No, that means good."

"Good in what sense?" I asked.

"Good looking." he returned.

The application is that as long as we are down here, if we want our "Parents'" approval, we ought to learn to talk and think in their terms. Some words that we might want to reconsider are: Election, All, Whosoever, foreknow, regeneration, etc. Let's stop reading into them more than is there or rationalizing them so that we can do just as we please.

And sin nature, T-U-L-I-P, doctrines of grace, total sovereignty, etc. Let's stop using terms that we need a "secret decoder ring" to all understand. :laugh: The Bible wasn't written for "majesterium" or "Nicolaitans" or some "fan club" alone but for EVERYONE to read and understand.

skypair

 

[JerryL]

I will, indeed! The "test" will be over! The "answers" supplied! All mistakes regretted at the Bema and then forgotten -- consumed in flames! We will love each other in the "unity" that Christ meant for us to find here and now, Eph 4:13 -- in the "knowledge and faith of JESUS CHRIST," not of men.

Right now God is looking down at His "teen children" and wondering about the "friends" some of us have chosen. Ever notice how easily teens are led away by their peers? One of the most telling evidences is that these teens seem to have their own vocabulary that makes it hard for teens and parents to communicate with each other, doesn't it. I can still remember when my son told me this girl he knew was "bad" and then, when I looked askance of him, said, "No, that means good."

"Good in what sense?" I asked.

"Good looking." he returned.

The application is that as long as we are down here, if we want our "Parents'" approval, we ought to learn to talk and think in their terms. Some words that we might want to reconsider are: Election, All, Whosoever, foreknow, regeneration, etc. Let's stop reading into them more than is there or rationalizing them so that we can do just as we please.

And sin nature, T-U-L-I-P, doctrines of grace, total sovereignty, etc. Let's stop using terms that we need a "secret decoder ring" to all understand. :laugh: The Bible wasn't written for "majesterium" or "Nicolaitans" or some "fan club" alone but for EVERYONE to read and understand.

skypair

Amen! :thumbs:

 

[skypair]

Amen! :thumbs:

Say Whaaat?? :laugh:

Good on ya, mate! There's hope after all! :jesus:

skypair

 

[AresMan]

The Bible wasn't written for "majesterium" or "Nicolaitans" or some "fan club" alone but for EVERYONE to read and understand.

John 6:44, 37, 39, and 40 are not hard to understand.

 

[JerryL]

Say Whaaat?? :laugh:

Good on ya, mate! There's hope after all! :jesus:

skypair

I was really amening the part about all the answers will be provided in Heaven and the fact that we both acknowledge that both peoples will be there. :1_grouphug:

 

[skypair]

John 6:44, 37, 39, and 40 are not hard to understand.

Spot on, Ares!! God draws ALL to Himself through Christ. When they come to God through the "sinner's prayer," He gives them into the Son's kingdom. The Son isn't going to lose them and, because they "saw," believed on Him, the Father gave them everlasting life and into the Son's kingdom.

There is coming a day also in which the Son will give His kingdom back to the Father, 1Cor 15:24.

Get this: When we are eternally "justified" with God by believing on Christ, He gives us into Christ's kingdom for life-long "sanctification." At the end of the church age (and MK for those saints), Christ delivers His kingdom back to the Father in glorified bodies.

Do you understand the passage a little better now? raying:

skypair