Whose Son is YHVH, the Christ?

[Moriah]

Therefore, the “ONE” in 1 John 5:7, John 10:30, and John 17:11 cannot refer to ONE in BEING. Why? Because Deut. 6:4 gave us already a hint that it is not and John 17:11 proves that it is not.

As I have said before, ONE IN UNITY is used in the case of Gen. 2:24, when the husband and wife were called ONE by God. How can the two in number, be One? This is possible only in the sense of UNITY.

We can understand John 10:30 in this sense, “I and my Father are one.” One in Unity not in number. It is also in this sense that the thousands can be one like the builders of the tower of Babel in Gen 11:6. Even the millions of Christians can be one in this sense according to John 17:21.

Unless of course our Apologizers here will agree that there are three separate persons in the Trinity or there are three beings in the Trinity then a “collective one” is possible.

In other words, “collective one” or “compound unity” can only be applied to anything that is at least numerically TWO entities. But God is NOT numerically THREE entities, according to their distorted traditional religious view. God is numerically ONE entity based on their doctrinal faith.

Therefore, obviously, they are misapplying the usage of the Hebrew word “ECHAD” (collective one) in Deut. 6:4 to their flawed traditional concept of Trinity.

:godisgood:

Excuse me but I still do not see what you are saying. It sounds like how trinity is explained. I understand everything you are saying and agree, until you make it sound as if the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are separate beings.
Be patient please, something you say in explaining more could be just the right way that makes it more understandable.

 

[Moriah]

Again, I respectfully ask this question. Your previous statement appears to assert that you believe "The Word" or "Christ" was actually created by God the Father prior to the creation of this world. If that is true, then does not that mean you do not believe "The Word" coexisted eternally with the Father and The Holy Spirit but was the first created being by God?

You sure cannot explain how Jesus was alive before he came to earth, that he lived with God before coming to earth, and that he WAS God. You cannot explain that with the trinity explanation. The trinity explanation just cannot get out of saying there are three Gods. Tell me, how is Jesus God and the Son?
God spoke His Word came forth. Jesus is the Word of God. Everything was made for Jesus and by Jesus and through Jesus.
1 Corinthians 8:6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

 

[Seve]

Excuse me but I still do not see what you are saying. It sounds like how trinity is explained. I understand everything you are saying and agree, until you make it sound as if the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are separate beings.
Be patient please, something you say in explaining more could be just the right way that makes it more understandable.

Hello Moriah,

Yes. It is my position that they are separate Divine Entites as I have indicated in my previous posts..... My view of the Truine of God differs from the flawed traditional trinity doctrines which is not supported by the Scriptures.

see below.

Hello Moriah,

I believe in one (echad) God.... compounded one that is.

While the Son and the Holy Spirit both proceed from the Almighty God, they all became distinct and separate Divine Entities from each other… upon being brought forth into this physical world from the invisible realm of the Father. However, they are all united (compound unity) as one God (Elohim-Plural).

Here's one of the Biblical basis of my belief.... Insertions are mine for presentation.

1 John 5:7
For there are three (numeric) that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three (numeric) are one (collectively)

Based on my Biblical understanding..... God is one (echad) in unity.... NOT... in number.

in fact, the Father and the Son are both separate entities, therefore, both are collective ONE God (Echad) in unity.

John17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with THINE OWN SELF with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Based on the Scripture above.... accordingly....

....The Father has his ownself Being....

.... the Son has his ownself Being as well...... even before the world was.... even before he was sent into this world and became flesh.

My Conclusion: YHVH is not the Father but the Christ himself, the Son of God - the only God formed for us to see and witness... the great I AM of old.

:godisgood:

 

[Moriah]

Hello Moriah,

Yes. It is my position that they are separate Divine Entites as I have indicated in my previous posts..... My view of the Truine of God differs from the flawed traditional trinity doctrines which is not supported by the Scriptures.

see below.
:godisgood:

Thank you for your patience.

Now, do you think you could still call God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit the same? I am concerned when you call them separate. How can they be separate? Jesus is God. The Holy Spirit is God. Jesus is the Holy Spirit.

The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are the same.

God is love, Jesus is love, and the Holy Spirit is love.

 

[Seve]

Thank you for your patience.

Now, do you think you could still call God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit the same? I am concerned when you call them separate. How can they be separate? Jesus is God. The Holy Spirit is God. Jesus is the Holy Spirit.

The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are the same.

God is love, Jesus is love, and the Holy Spirit is love.

Of course, they are All considered as God, individually.... since they all proceeded forth from the Almighty God himself, the Spirit of Love..... that never change.

The point is. ....they became separate from each other upon being BROUGTH FORTH into our physical world form the invisible realm of the Almighty God.

:godisgood:

 

[Moriah]

Of course, they are All considered as God, individually.... since they all proceeded forth from the Almighty God himself, the Spirit of Love.....

The point is. ....they became separate from each other upon being BROUGTH FORTH into our physical world form the invisible realm of Almighty God.

:godisgood:

Jesus came as a man in the flesh, but he returned to the Father.
I just will not ever call them ‘separate’.

 

[Yeshua1]

I am not sure what you mean by compounded one. I do not use the word trinity but how does your beliefs differ from the trinity, if at all?

I know what I believe as for God creating Jesus, His visible being, His Word, then all creation created by Jesus and for Jesus.
However, I also believe that the Holy Spirit is Jesus. I believe Jesus is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, and Jesus is the Holy Spirit. I can show scripture showing that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are the same.
Do you agree?

No! All 3 are equally and each God, but there are seperate and distinct persons!

NOT same, that would be either Modualism or jesus only, NOT the biblical view of God!

 

[Moriah]

No! All 3 are equally and each God, but there are seperate and distinct persons!

NOT same, that would be either Modualism or jesus only, NOT the biblical view of God!

Whose Spirit does a saved person have in them?

 

[Yeshua1]

Of course, they are All considered as God, individually.... since they all proceeded forth from the Almighty God himself, the Spirit of Love..... that never change.

The point is. ....they became separate from each other upon being BROUGTH FORTH into our physical world form the invisible realm of the Almighty God.

:godisgood:

ALL 3 of them are equally God! From what realm of what God?

 

[Yeshua1]

Whose Spirit does a saved person have in them?

A Christian receives the Holy spirit, the third person of the Holy trinity!

he is God, so they receive God the Spirit!
So he is the Spirit of God, but also distinct from both father/Son , who are also God!

 

[The Biblicist]

Dear Readers,

First of all, the Elohim (The plural of Eloah, God), who is one in Unity in Deut.6:4, used the Hebrew word ECHAD which refers to a “collective one of MORE THAN ONE ENTITY. So the ONE BEING in that concept is impossible in the light of “ECHAD”.

As I have posted before.... The use of “ECHAD” of Genesis 2:24 best explains the “ECHAD” of Deuteronomy 6:4. Therefore, when Moses said that the husband and wife (TWO BEINGS) would become “ECHAD” (one), that is a “collective one” of two beings.”

Deuteronomy 6:4 attests to this fact: “Hear, O Israel: The LORD (YHVH) our God (Elohim, plural referring to the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, who were all individually called God), is ONE LORD (collectively).

You still don't address the use of ECHAD in Malichi 3:2. That text proves that ECHAD is used for one in NUMBER as well.

Second, in the New Testament book of John (17:11) we read: “I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name--the name you gave me—so that they may be one as we are one.”

Now if the ONENESS of the Father and the Son is a ONENESS in BEING, are they telling me that Jesus was praying to the Father for his disciples that they may become ONE in BEING? Hardly!

Therefore, the “ONE” in 1 John 5:7, John 10:30, and John 17:11 cannot refer to ONE in BEING. Why? Because Deut. 6:4 gave us already a hint that it is not and John 17:11 proves that it is not.

John 10 and John 17 deal with two completely different subjects. John 10:30-34 deal with WHO Christ is in his relationship with God but John 17:11-21 deals with HOW they are brought into a sanctified unity by God and His Word (Jn. 17:17-21).

In the former text it is the NATURE of God that is the subject while in the latter it is HOW they are brought into conformity to the Scripture and the will of God. Christ and the Father are "one" in nature - all attributes that make God to be God. Christ and His disciples are "one" in unity by being set apart by the Same Word of God - the truth.

You are confusing apples with oranges and that is a failure to recognize two differnent subjects in two different contexts.

Unless of course our Apologizers here will agree that there are three separate persons in the Trinity or there are three beings in the Trinity then a “collective one” is possible.

There is but One God in number, and "God" is being defined as divine substance consisting of all attributes that make "God" to be "God" and yet that one God is made manifest in three different unique manifest pesonages co-equal and co-eternal.

 

[Yeshua1]

Jesus came as a man in the flesh, but he returned to the Father.
I just will not ever call them ‘separate’.

God the son/Logos/Eternal Word of the Father, became a human being, jesus....

being with BOTH natures of God/Sinless man....

 

[Moriah]

Biblicist,

Could you please clean up your last post, for I did not say what you quote me as saying.

 

[The Biblicist]

You still don't address the use of ECHAD in Malichi 3:2. That text proves that ECHAD is used for one in NUMBER as well.



John 10 and John 17 deal with two completely different subjects. John 10:30-34 deal with WHO Christ is in his relationship with God but John 17:11-21 deals with HOW they are brought into a sanctified unity by God and His Word (Jn. 17:17-21).

In the former text it is the NATURE of God that is the subject while in the latter it is HOW they are brought into conformity to the Scripture and the will of God. Christ and the Father are "one" in nature - all attributes that make God to be God. Christ and His disciples are "one" in unity by being set apart by the Same Word of God - the truth.

You are confusing apples with oranges and that is a failure to recognize two differnent subjects in two different contexts.






There is but One God in number, and "God" is being defined as divine substance consisting of all attributes that make "God" to be "God" and yet that one God is made manifest in three different unique manifest pesonages co-equal and co-eternal.

Paul says the "Godhead" is made manifest in creation(Rom. 1:20)

There is but one singular universe but it is a tri-one composed of space, matter and time, each one also being a tri-one in nature.

Space is ONE but is composed of length, breadth and width. Remove but one and all are removed

Times is ONE but is composed of past, present and future. Remove one and all are removed.

Matter is ONE but is composed of engery, motion, phenomena. Remove one and all are removed.

 

[Moriah]

A Christian receives the Holy spirit, the third person of the Holy trinity!

he is God, so they receive God the Spirit!
So he is the Spirit of God, but also distinct from both father/Son , who are also God!

When a person is saved, they receive the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God the Father AND Jesus Christ the Son.

 

[Yeshua1]

Thank you for your patience.

Now, do you think you could still call God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit the same? I am concerned when you call them separate. How can they be separate? Jesus is God. The Holy Spirit is God. Jesus is the Holy Spirit.

The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are the same.

God is love, Jesus is love, and the Holy Spirit is love.

is the holy spirit in a Christian able to communicate with us, talk, have emotions? is A person?

 

[The Biblicist]

Biblicist,

Could you please clean up your last post, for I did not say what you quote me as saying.

Sorry, it was not intentional. It has been changed.

 

[The Biblicist]

When a person is saved, they receive the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God the Father AND Jesus Christ the Son.

You are assuming that the possessive case ("of") means they are one and the same identity. However, the possessive case is used a number of ways in the scripture. You are simply making an arbritrary choice that is contrary to the rest of the teaching of scriptures.

For example Jesus is called "The Son OF God" but that cannot possibly mean the Father and the Son are the same because the Father SENT the Son and He did not send himself and neither does he Pray to himself.

To be a "son of Abraham" does not mean the son and Abraham are the same. Gentile believers are "sons of Abraham" and there is no generative relationship. It stands for a kind of established RELATIONSHIP with Abraham (Rom. 4:11-12). John and James are called "The Sons of Thunder" but that does not mean that "Thunder" and James and John are the same. That is simply a metaphor for a kind of relationship between thunder and them.

To be "God's Son" or to be "God's Spirit" speaks of a kind of relationship between God the Father and the Son and The Spirit. The relationship is that all three are partakers of the same divine essence or attributes that define "God" to be "God."

God's Son and God's Spirit are claims of RELATIONSHIP with God the Father.

 

[Moriah]

is the holy spirit in a Christian able to communicate with us, talk, have emotions? is A person?

The Holy Spirit is Jesus. Jesus is love.
I am not sure what you mean by communicate with us.
Jesus can speak to anyone outside your body and mind, as a voice you would hear from someone else.
We pray to God through Jesus and communicate that way.
We are in constant communion with God and Jesus if you have the Holy Spirit living in you.
I believe the Holy Spirit can move you think of something.
The Holy Spirit is a feeling for love is a feeling.
We also have the written Word of God, we are to consider them carefully, to obey, and be transformed by. We have them in our hearts and written in our minds.

 

[Moriah]

You are assuming that the possessive case ("of") means they are one and the same identity. However, the possessive case is used a number of ways in the scripture. You are simply making an arbritrary choice that is contrary to the rest of the teaching of scriptures.

I am not contradicting the scriptures. I am not sure what you are talking about the word ‘of’.

For example Jesus is called "The Son OF God" but that cannot possibly mean the Father and the Son are the same because the Father SENT the Son and He did not send himself and neither does he Pray to himself.

That is where you do not understand.

To be a "son of Abraham" does not mean the son and Abraham are the same. Gentile believers are "sons of Abraham" and there is no generative relationship. It stands for a kind of established RELATIONSHIP with Abraham (Rom. 4:11-12). John and James are called "The Sons of Thunder" but that does not mean that "Thunder" and James and John are the same. That is simply a metaphor for a kind of relationship between thunder and them.

Now you are using human terms.

To be "God's Son" or to be "God's Spirit" speaks of a kind of relationship between God the Father and the Son and The Spirit. The relationship is that all three are partakers of the same divine essence or attributes that define "God" to be "God."

God's Son and God's Spirit are claims of RELATIONSHIP with God the Father.

Do you want to answer the question, whose Spirit does a person receive when they are saved?

In addition, read this scripture carefully.

1 Corinthians 8:6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

Did you read the scripture?
Now, tell me the difference between God the Father and Jesus Christ the Son from that scripture.