Why are we so sure??

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by Nevertheless:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Then, there is the simple fact, that the bible says not to add or take away from the bible.

Not quite. The book of Revelation says not to add to or take away from the words of that prophecy. There is nothing to indicate that this was to apply to all of the books of the Bible, which at the time Revelation was written, were not even compiled! </font>[/QUOTE]The Hebrew text was "compiled" and available even at the time of Christ.

the NT greek text was written AND READ by the first century NT church. If by "compiled" you mean a "codex version" that is a bound Bible you are right that the NT letters were in "letter" format - not a bound book.

Interestingly - we have manuscripts much closer to the actdual autograph dates for the NT texts -- unlike most other ancient documents.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[TexasSky]

Even if you ascribe to the view that Revelation's words referred ~only~ to the events recorded in Revelation - the Book of Mormon would fail the test. The Book of Mormon teaches a different ending and judgement than Revelation does.

 

[BobRyan]

But isn't that consistent with the Amillennial view that was dominant in the 1700's?

(Remember that premillennialism did not gain acceptance in the US until the mid 1800's).

 

[av1611jim]

Originally posted by Nevertheless:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Then, there is the simple fact, that the bible says not to add or take away from the bible.

Not quite. The book of Revelation says not to add to or take away from the words of that prophecy. There is nothing to indicate that this was to apply to all of the books of the Bible, which at the time Revelation was written, were not even compiled! </font>[/QUOTE]Incorrect;
There are prohibitions to adding or subtracting from Scripture in Deut. and Prov. also.
Therefore we have three prohibitions in Scripture not to mess with Scripture.

Here they are;
De 4:2
Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.
Pr 30:5
Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.
Pr 30:6
Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.

FYI

In HIS service;
Jim

 

[billwald]

Right! The "Bible" is the Torah - 1st 5 books. Everything else is commentary.

 

[music4Him]

Originally posted by jacob62:
You might as well write a Baptist bible,a Penticostal bible,a Church of God bible etc.That way,instead of saying things no longer apply,you can either take it out or twist it to your Baptist doctrine.

Jacob's

going to slap me (as other will probley want to also)

, but I can resist.
There is a Baptist, Pentacostal (Charsamatic),...ect bible. Most of them has KJV printed on the side.

But of couse in every church some bring some books that have NIV and some got NKJV...ect on 'em.

Ok back to the topic.

Music4Him

 

[jacob62]

lol music4Him (jacob reaches to slap music4Him,trips over mic cord as music4Him slaps jacob with guitar)

 

[BobRyan]

Not quite. The book of Revelation says not to add to or take away from the words of that prophecy. There is nothing to indicate that this was to apply to all of the books of the Bible, which at the time Revelation was written, were not even compiled!

The NT authors were not "Adding" to or altering any previous book of the Bible in the OT. They were writing an inspired text that is compiled along with the OT -- not changing the OT so fit their bias.

The Hebrew text is reliable.

So also the Greek text of the NT.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[music4Him]

Sorry about that jacob I usually try to keep my mic cords rolled up and in order.

One thing I'm sure of and that is the essentials of salvation need to be preached just like the bible lays it out.
I don't know about all the other books (Mormon, JW's, Islam....ect) but In the KJV I read warnings about if any come to you preaching another doctine or another Jesus you should leave them alone.
BTW, wasn't the Berrens(sp?) mentoined in the NT that checked everything with what the OT said to see if what they were being told lined up with the new things that they were being told? So should that be a rule for us when searching out why we are sure that we got the real deal?

 

[steaver]

Both Smith and Mohammed where Christian to start with.

Not really. Maybe "professing" Christian, but proved to be children of the devil.

"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us". (1 John 2:19)

Once a Christian. Always a Christian! ( In the true, biblical, born-again definition of the word)

God Bless!

 

[Apreacher4Him]

Why?

Not having ever been anything but a Sinner, and then one saved by grace . . .

BUT, I know who I have believed and am persuaded [by faith] that He is able to
keep that which I have commited unto Him against that day!

In Hebrews it says BY FAITH we "know" not "think" "guess" or even "hope"

It says we "KNOW" by faith. For, without "faith" it is impossible...

Futhermore, His Word says, You shall "KNOW" the "TRUTH" and "the truth shall make you free"!!! And in another place Christ said: "Thy Word is Truth" and His Word again says "it is settled forever in Heaven" ... while men dicker between whether they should trust "science" or "faith" God has already declared His Word
"preserved" forever in Heaven...

He has promised His Word to His people... For the "just shall live" ONLY "by faith"
And "FAITH COMETH" ONLY "BY HEARING AND HEARING BY THE WORD OF GOD"

God is not some cosmic recluse incapable of making His will known... He has given His Word to His people, manifested by sovereign miracles, and as Christ said "thus saith the Lord" "it is written" and "let Him that hath ears to hear let him hear"

It is NOT our job to PROVE GOD's EXISTENCE - That's God's Holy Spirit's Work
It is NOT our job to PROVE GOD's WORD - it is simply for us to "look and live"

Did He not say to the crowd that if they would just be

"WILLING TO DO HIS WILL" You will [Here it is again...] "KNOW" "of the doctrine, whether it BE OF GOD [i.e if it is God's Word!] or whether I speak of myself!!

So when your back is to the wall and someone doubts the Bible or trys to add to it
simply declare His Word "preach the Word" and let God's Holy Spirit convince the "willing" "unhardened heart" that such is "TRUTH"
Let all the Devil's demons shudder in fear... For if a mere "earthen vessel" can speak forth His father's Word and it come forth in power of unbreakable truth as "it shall not be broken"... Then what then shall be their fate when the promised day when the Son of God, the King of Kings and Lord of Lords speaks forth the Sword of His Spirit and Crushes the Serpents head!!


Sure men always try to "add to" and "take" away from God's Word - but in Revelation God has spoken already to their fate...

If God is able to deliver His Word, then HIS PEOPLE are sure to always have it....
Such is only the case for the 66 books of the Bible... God is not up in heaven with his settled Word saying "oh my" "oh my" how do I get them my 67th book or tell them that they have one "extra" by their own mistake.... We have a pure Word of God witnessed by Miracles, given by inspiration, revealed by God, and preserved forever for His people who without cannot walk by faith or claim the "whole counsel of God"... Away with the Heresy's of the Apocrapha that contradict the Word of God or likewise the Book of Moron and let us take by faith what God has manifestly given to His people and proven by faith, from faith to faith, that "His Word is Truth"!!

That is also why we need not go looking for better, older, "more accurate" texts of His Word! People Awake to righteousness either God gave and kept His Word for His people or He did not... Anything new cannot be His Word! His Word is Eternal and Settled, and given forever to His people!

Hope this helps..


By the way "Tamberine lady" for some reason I was led to read the posts that you started.. Many of them are very thoughtful and helpful threads, yet I fine an interesting distinction. They have a unique meekness not being dominated by your own thought processes... Not that anything one should preach should come from anything but God's Word originally... And yet I find the threads helpful and your responses faithful to your convictions yet "lady like" shall we say No offense.

In Sincerity and Truth,

Michael

P.S. Case in point here is a unique quote I appreciated from you:

"People who die and go to heaven do not pray for us after that. Neither does Mary, neither will the Pope.

We pray to the Father in Jesus name and Jesus intercedes for us to the Father. Anything else is false teaching and is heresy!!!

Peace,

Tam

Preach it! lol and yet that is the truth in Love, and unlike many posts started by others you obviously do not feel compelled to dominate every thread you start, yet you are willing to humbly stand for HIS Truth.

God bless...

 

[Apreacher4Him]

Please read the post above too

Tam says: The bible as we know it, the 66 books of inspired scripture, was first translated into the Latin Vulgate approximately, around 400 AD.

Then it was finally translated into english by Wycliffe about 1380, and then other versions followed etc.

My question is, . . . how did the "inspiration" come to these men who translated the bible?? If the spirit had stopped reveiling things to men,. . . how did they know which books to choose?

I'm sure I must have missed something!! Enlighten me, please!!


Humbly I write this, for my sis: Yes The Bible "as we know it" is the "Bible as given and kept by the people of God" - God has given to His people what we were to have else God failed... Yet He can do so and did Sovereignly and providentially preserving His Word in the Hands of His people apart from the "inspiration". No "re-inspiration" was necessary . . . Merely what Men did would be what "men" would do today if they wanted to translate the Bible into another language (for we are not in a position today to improve on the English Available translations -- for many reasons . . . but lest I digress) . . . What they would do is NOT "go looking" for "what books (or "words") God Has given but simply "look around them" What have God's people been given? And, what have they "spontaneously" (not of men, but of God) and "universally" (amongst all the saints of God in the Body of Christ) accepted and used as inspired of God...

Trust me, it was no harder for them in "400 AD" to "find" "which books" than it would be for you or I today ... lol It was just as self-evident - they have their criteria then, we have our criteria now... But what God has already done in giving it and what His people did when they received it was not "judged by men" but made "self-evident by God"

Hence, The perfection of God's Word and the recognition of God's Word, and Preservation of God's Word was nothing but God's Work - piece of cake...

And the "Just shall live by Faith" and "Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God"

 

[BobRyan]

I am going to play devils advocate on this one, and you'll see why when you read the queston!

Why are we so sure that the bible, the one book we all quote so freely on this board, is ALL the scripture there is? How do we know it contains ALL of the word of God that He wants us to have?

SDA have E.G. White, Mormons have the book of Moroni, Jehovahs Witness have their own version, the New World Translation, and the Catholics have all their different books.

Then there's the Koran, etc. well you get the idea!
So how do we know OURS is the correct one???

Peace,
Tam

Your OP makes some bad assumptions.

Mormons provide both the KJV AND the book of Mormon as "BIBLES" then they ALSO present "Pearl of Great Price" and "Doctrines and Covenants" as other inspired books but not as "Bibles" the way they do with the Book of Mormon.

The JWs pring the "NWT" New World Translation NOT AS another inspired text -- just as ANOTHER TRANSLATION -- poorly done but having ONE group do a translation is no more "evil" than the RC Duay Bible translation done by the RCC-ALONE or having the LIVING Bible done by ONE person.

SDAs have only the ONE Bible - but they publish the writings of Ellen White in book form. There are a great many OT and NT "prophets" with inspired messages from God that HAVE NOTHING passed on to us today. That does not mean they "did not exist" and it does not mean God was in the business of telling His people to IGNORE His own non-canonical prophets.

The assumption in the question above is that ALL inspired messages from all prophets in both OT and NT were always added to the Bible. We know that in fact they were not!

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

!Cor 14 says that we should "Desire earnestly spiritual gifst BUT ESPECIALLY that you may prophesy"

made made tradition today say "OH NO - Don't do that!"

So again - it is a choice between the Bible and man-made-tradition.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

I am going to play devils advocate on this one, and you'll see why when you read the queston!

Why are we so sure that the bible, the one book we all quote so freely on this board, is ALL the scripture there is? How do we know it contains ALL of the word of God that He wants us to have?

SDA have E.G. White, Mormons have the book of Moroni, Jehovahs Witness have their own version, the New World Translation, and the Catholics have all their different books.

Then there's the Koran, etc. well you get the idea!

So how do we know OURS is the correct one???


Peace,

Tam

Because of the same reason we believe that our God is the one and only true God, that there is no other way to the father except through Christ and that our Scripture is the only true one: Faith in God and his Word.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Brother Bob]

I suspect the Calvinist would say we are predestined to know it. The rest of us go by FAITH.

 

[Apreacher4Him]

Why do people hyjack threads with off base tangentS?

Why do people hyjack threads with off base tangentS?

Especially you ryan - this had nothing to do with "spiritual gifts" or the presence of
"prophets" for today.... So lets deal with the issue of the thread... respond to the solid facts of the last post [not off base tangents] or accept that your thoughts will be utterly disregarded by all reasonable people and in this case by me...

If you want to talk about "predestination" "spiritual gifts" the presence of "prophets" for today . . . then start another thread .... otherwise let us deal with this issue.... the issue of the thread...

Which is what is noted here below:

Tam says: The bible as we know it, the 66 books of inspired scripture, was first translated into the Latin Vulgate approximately, around 400 AD.

Then it was finally translated into english by Wycliffe about 1380, and then other versions followed etc.

My question is, . . . how did the "inspiration" come to these men who translated the bible?? If the spirit had stopped reveiling things to men,. . . how did they know which books to choose?

I'm sure I must have missed something!! Enlighten me, please!!


Humbly I write this, for my sis: Yes The Bible "as we know it" is the "Bible as given and kept by the people of God" - God has given to His people what we were to have else God failed... Yet He can do so and did Sovereignly and providentially preserving His Word in the Hands of His people apart from the "inspiration". No "re-inspiration" was necessary . . . Merely what Men did would be what "men" would do today if they wanted to translate the Bible into another language (for we are not in a position today to improve on the English Available translations -- for many reasons . . . but lest I digress) . . . What they would do is NOT "go looking" for "what books (or "words") God Has given but simply "look around them" What have God's people been given? And, what have they "spontaneously" (not of men, but of God) and "universally" (amongst all the saints of God in the Body of Christ) accepted and used as inspired of God...

Trust me, it was no harder for them in "400 AD" to "find" "which books" than it would be for you or I today ... lol It was just as self-evident - they have their criteria then, we have our criteria now... But what God has already done in giving it and what His people did when they received it was not "judged by men" but made "self-evident by God"

Hence, The perfection of God's Word and the recognition of God's Word, and Preservation of God's Word was nothing but God's Work - piece of cake...

And the "Just shall live by Faith" and "Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God"

 

[Jack Matthews]

I think we try really hard to answer this question with historical facts, manuscript evidence, textual criticism, language studies, and all of those things do provide a mountain of evidence which shows the Bible, and particularly the New Testament, to be the most supported document of human history, at least, from the period before the printing press made accurate reproduction possible. But even with all of that evidence, that is not why I believe that the 66 canonical books we call "The Bible" are sufficient to provide humans with the written message necessary for salvation and Christian living. I'm going to give a "divinity school" answer.

"The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man't spirit within him? In the same way, no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words. The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. The spiritual man makes judgements about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgement:
'For who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct him?'
But we have the mind of Christ. I Cor. 2:10b-16 NIV

This is the doctrine of illumination. Some call it the gift of discernment. The fact of the matter is that the words of scripture themselves are not, by definition "The Word of God." They were written by men who were carried along by the Spirit, according to Peter, who was one of the writers and testifies to his own experience. They testify to the Word (Logos) of God, who is Christ, according to John 1:1. The faith that we have about the Bible's sufficiency is a product of being spiritual, rather than worldly, minded. That's how we can be sure.

We also know that as long as we are in the flesh, we are not going to be perfectly spiritually minded. The end result of that is that not every believer is going to find mutual agreement on every point of scripture. True believers, however, will find agreement on salvation. The rest depends on your own submission to, and dependence on the Spirit. I never approach the study of the scripture without first praying and asking God to illumine my mind. When I have doubts, or questions, or difficulty, I stop studying and go back to praying. I guess that would be defined as faith, but it isn't a blind faith.

As a side note, that's why I am not all that hung up on the idea of translation. Translators, too, can be guided and illumined by the spirit, which is why I not only don't have a problem with most modern versions that are translations from the original languages (not the vulgate or Bishop's Bible) but I trust that they are as accurate as required for them to be sufficient.

 

[hill]

Because God speaks to me through His Word and does not through any of those other writings.

 

[tamborine lady]

How do we know?

:type:

Hill, you said "God speaks to me through His Word."

Tam says:
That is the crux of the matter my friend, (and the reason for the devils adcocate part).

How so we KNOW that His Word is what we have in our Bible? :smilewinkgrin:

Now the thread is finally doing what I intended it to do about 16 months ago when I first posted it! (It was supposed to provoke basic thinking). My thought is that we have the Bible, but God does still send us prophecys, and inspirations from Him even today,which still have to line up with scripture.

Thanks preacher for resurecting it.

Working for Jesus,

Tam