Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
That's okay, because those so called "doctrines" are not consistent with scripture.
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Why are you a Calvinist?
- Thread starter Jarthur001
- Start date
That's okay, because those so called "doctrines" are not consistent with scripture.
The Archangel wrote;
Well, there it is right there, you were not convinced of Calvinism by the scriptures, but by the writings of Calvinists. Sproul was the beginning of the end of your Arminianism, and Piper put you over the edge.
I would say this could happen to anyone who did not have a firm foundation in the word of God. The scriptures should be our one and only authority.
2 Tim 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
I can speak from personal experience on this. I was not from a religious family whatsoever, I accepted Christ when a neighbor invited me to church as a boy. I heard a good sermon on hell from the scriptures and also that Jesus paid for my sins on the cross and rose from the dead. I went down at the invitation and accepted Jesus as my personal saviour. That was over 45 years ago and I have not been the same since.
But shortly after that we moved and I was not going to church or even in contact with other Christians. I did have a Bible my Aunt sent me and I read it for hours almost every day. But much of the scripture was simply too complex for me at the time.
The Jehovah's Witnesses used to come by our house with the Watchtower. My father had recognized my great interest in religion and used to give them a small donation, they would give my Dad literature which he gave to me. I didn't know the difference between a JW and any other group, I would read their material. I did notice a few differences between what the JWs taught and what scripture seemed to say and started to become very confused. In fact, I became so confused that I cried out to God for the truth for quite some time. I became very fearful and desperate, and started doubting my salvation. It was a bad time for me. I just wanted to know what God was teaching in the scriptures and not man. I examined many different sects for a few years before I came to believe the Baptist church was closest to what scriptures actually taught.
Anyway, I got straightened out, but it was a difficult and painful period for me. I take salvation very seriously, doubting my salvation was a severe crisis for me.
But what I am saying is this, if a person is not well grounded in the scriptures it is very easy to lead a person off into falsehood. These groups cherry-pick scripture to form their doctrines and they can be very convincing. They also tend to isolate a person from others. In the case of JWs, they teach that all other religions are from Satan himself, in order to make a person fearful of listening to any opposing opinions. This is very effective.
All I can say is be very careful listening to men. Make the scriptures your authority.
Well, there it is right there, you were not convinced of Calvinism by the scriptures, but by the writings of Calvinists. Sproul was the beginning of the end of your Arminianism, and Piper put you over the edge.
I would say this could happen to anyone who did not have a firm foundation in the word of God. The scriptures should be our one and only authority.
2 Tim 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
I can speak from personal experience on this. I was not from a religious family whatsoever, I accepted Christ when a neighbor invited me to church as a boy. I heard a good sermon on hell from the scriptures and also that Jesus paid for my sins on the cross and rose from the dead. I went down at the invitation and accepted Jesus as my personal saviour. That was over 45 years ago and I have not been the same since.
But shortly after that we moved and I was not going to church or even in contact with other Christians. I did have a Bible my Aunt sent me and I read it for hours almost every day. But much of the scripture was simply too complex for me at the time.
The Jehovah's Witnesses used to come by our house with the Watchtower. My father had recognized my great interest in religion and used to give them a small donation, they would give my Dad literature which he gave to me. I didn't know the difference between a JW and any other group, I would read their material. I did notice a few differences between what the JWs taught and what scripture seemed to say and started to become very confused. In fact, I became so confused that I cried out to God for the truth for quite some time. I became very fearful and desperate, and started doubting my salvation. It was a bad time for me. I just wanted to know what God was teaching in the scriptures and not man. I examined many different sects for a few years before I came to believe the Baptist church was closest to what scriptures actually taught.
Anyway, I got straightened out, but it was a difficult and painful period for me. I take salvation very seriously, doubting my salvation was a severe crisis for me.
But what I am saying is this, if a person is not well grounded in the scriptures it is very easy to lead a person off into falsehood. These groups cherry-pick scripture to form their doctrines and they can be very convincing. They also tend to isolate a person from others. In the case of JWs, they teach that all other religions are from Satan himself, in order to make a person fearful of listening to any opposing opinions. This is very effective.
All I can say is be very careful listening to men. Make the scriptures your authority.
Winman, are you implying that Sproul and Piper and other Reformed teaches are like a cult, like JW's? Are you also implying that Calvinists are not "well-grounded in Scriptures?" It sure sounds like that's what you are saying.
BTW, I know both Cals and non-Cals who are well-grounded in the Scriptures.
BTW, I know both Cals and non-Cals who are well-grounded in the Scriptures.
When I was young in the faith, my theology was Calvinist, then I began to disagree with Calvinism, and began leaning more in the direction of Arminianism. Then I began to disagree with Arminianism, and these days I have adopted a bit of Calvinism mixed with some Arminianism as my theology of choice. Personally I believe the truth lies somewhere in between Calvinist and Arminian teachings. I guess that makes me a Calminian.
My paraphrase of the following verses
1 Cor 1:12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Calvin; and I of Arminius; and I of Wesley; and I of Christ.
1 Cor 1:13 Is Christ divided? was Calvin crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Arminius?
My paraphrase of the following verses
1 Cor 1:12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Calvin; and I of Arminius; and I of Wesley; and I of Christ.
1 Cor 1:13 Is Christ divided? was Calvin crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Arminius?
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Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
No to both. Most Calvinists really believe they are teaching what the scriptures teach and have a good grasp on why they believe what they believe. Calvinism is a system of Christian belief, not a cult.
As do I.
(sorry, just realized this was addressed to Winman....)
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I quoted Archangel, he said that when he read Sproul it began his movement away from Arminianism, and Piper put him over the edge. So, by his own words it was the teachings of these men that led him to fully accept Calvinism. Go back and read his post for yourself.
And, if you notice, I included that part of his quote where he said he does not always fully agree with these men. So, I was careful not to misrepresent his statements.
As to my personal opinion, yes, I do believe Calvinism is like a cult. They clearly cherry-pick scripture to try to prove their doctrine and ignore literally hundreds of scriptures that easily contradict it. Over the past few months I have posted many, many scriptures that clearly show it error.
And Calvinism has it's own way of producing fear in it's followers. A Calvinist is made afraid to call on Jesus for salvation, being taught this violates God's sovereignty. But the scriptures show it is not.
Luke 18:13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
Did this publican call out to God for mercy? Did Jesus accept him?
So, you see the scriptures themselves clearly show it is not a sin for a man to call on Jesus for salvation, God's sovereignty is not violated and God is not offended. And notice Jesus saw this as an act of humility, not pride as Calvinists falsely claim such an act would be.
Look, I could go on my merry way. I know I called on Jesus to save me from my sins, and Jesus said whoever comes to him will not be cast out. I know I am saved because Jesus gave me a promise, and Jesus never lies.
I oppose Calvinism because I sincerely believe it to be serious error. You may think I have some other motive, but I do not. I fight against it because I want all people to know the truth and be saved.
I do not think myself some sort of infallable authority on scripture, but Calvinism is easily shown to be false by literally hundreds of scriptures. Whenever someone says they believe Calvinism because of the scriptures I am amazed to say the least. The scriptures DO NOT teach Calvinism, not even close.
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"I am myself persuaded that the Calvinist alone is right upon some points, and the Arminian alone is right upon others. There is a great deal of truth in the positive side of both systems, and a great deal of error in the negative side of both." —Charles Spurgeon, Pride Catechized and Condemned
I appreciate your sentiment here. Thanks.
The Archangel
Well-Known Member
I don't think you read the post. Here is what I said and I'll bold it so you don't miss it:
I read Chosen by God by R.C. Sproul. I knew he was a Calvinist and I knew I didn't agree with Calvinism, so I wanted to see what he had to say. I struggled through the book and began examining the passages of scripture he referenced in the book. That was the beginning of the end of my Arminianism.
Let me state it for you so that you cannot possibly miss it: My journey into Calvinism was a scriptural journey. If Sproul and Piper did anything, they pointed me in the right direction, I still walked through the scripture myself.
Absolutely not. Apparently you live in a parallel universe of some kind, perhaps "Winmanland."
Calvinism a cult? Hardly. And, Arminians pick and choose way more than Calvinists do. Not to mention, you have shown--repeatedly so--an unwillingness or, more likely, an inability to take the text for what it actually says. You have been shown again and again how certain passages you like to post cannot mean what you think they mean. But like an ostrich, you bury your head in the sand and let true knowledge pass you by.
What a hideously stupid thing to say. This has no bearing in truth. You don't have a clue, not even a little one. Perhaps this is the way "stuff" works in "Winmanland," but this is nothing close to reality.
Good grief!
The Archangel
Nice quote - Thank you for posting this.
The Archangel said:
hey, give him a break, Archangel.
he's tired, like his other buddy.
they been chasing Calvinist and Dawg vampires for so long and haven't caught any so they gotta be tired.
to honor their efforts, I changed my avatar. (ain't it nice ?).
I just guffawed; Pinoy, you're a hoot!
Archangel said:
Well, there you go right there. You began studying passages of scripture Sproul referenced in his book. Anybody can cherry-pick scripture and make it say anything they want. Talk to a Jehovah's Witness and they will give you passages from scripture that taken alone support their false doctrine. Mormons will do the same. You can find commentaries from any so-called Christian denomination that will sport passages that "prove" they hold the truth and all others are in error.
And I am saying this is what Calvinism does, it picks certain verses and passages that would seem to support it, and ignores many, many scriptures that absolutely contradict it.
And I think it embarrassing when Calvinists have to argue that when God says he wants to save "all men" a Calvinist will say, "Oh, I know it says all men, but it really only means a few elect men". I would be embarrassed to argue that. Is God incapable of saying what he really means? Could not God have easily said Jesus died only for the elect? If a man must be regnerated by the Holy Spirit to have the ability for faith and repentance, don't you think that God in his wisdom could give at least one verse in all of scripture that says that? But you will not find even one verse in all the Bible that says that. Paul said faith comes by hearing the word of God and left it at that, was Paul forgetful that day and forgot to include that even more importantly a man must be regenerated by the Holy Spirit before he will even have the desire to listen to the scriptures? I would be embarrassed to believe such a doctrine.
Archangel, I have debated with you several times. You spend most of your energy arguing that the scriptures do not really say what even a child could easily understand them to say. You dig into all your Greek and grammar trying to prove the English version of scripture corrupt. When others who also know Greek disagreed with you, you seemed amazed. Even still you will not budge from your doctrine.
I am of the firm belief that God loves us and wants us to know and understand him. I believe he gave us the scriptures for that very purpose. If we simply believe God's word and ask him for understanding he will open up the true interpretation to us if we are sincere. It is helpful at times to read the writings of men, but we must always remember that man is not infallable. Even good men, honest men sometimes misinterpret scripture.
James 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
When it comes to scripture, I claim this promise of God all the time. Whenever I do not understand a passage of scripture I ask God to help me understand it. I want to know God's interpretation, not the interpretation of men, and not even my own interpretation. And you may not believe me, but God has answered this prayer for me many times. I don't begin to think I understand much scripture, how can man understand the writings of God? But he does help us along if we ask him to help us. But you have to be willing to accept his interpretation, not what you want the scriptures to say.
Well, there you go right there. You began studying passages of scripture Sproul referenced in his book. Anybody can cherry-pick scripture and make it say anything they want. Talk to a Jehovah's Witness and they will give you passages from scripture that taken alone support their false doctrine. Mormons will do the same. You can find commentaries from any so-called Christian denomination that will sport passages that "prove" they hold the truth and all others are in error.
And I am saying this is what Calvinism does, it picks certain verses and passages that would seem to support it, and ignores many, many scriptures that absolutely contradict it.
And I think it embarrassing when Calvinists have to argue that when God says he wants to save "all men" a Calvinist will say, "Oh, I know it says all men, but it really only means a few elect men". I would be embarrassed to argue that. Is God incapable of saying what he really means? Could not God have easily said Jesus died only for the elect? If a man must be regnerated by the Holy Spirit to have the ability for faith and repentance, don't you think that God in his wisdom could give at least one verse in all of scripture that says that? But you will not find even one verse in all the Bible that says that. Paul said faith comes by hearing the word of God and left it at that, was Paul forgetful that day and forgot to include that even more importantly a man must be regenerated by the Holy Spirit before he will even have the desire to listen to the scriptures? I would be embarrassed to believe such a doctrine.
Archangel, I have debated with you several times. You spend most of your energy arguing that the scriptures do not really say what even a child could easily understand them to say. You dig into all your Greek and grammar trying to prove the English version of scripture corrupt. When others who also know Greek disagreed with you, you seemed amazed. Even still you will not budge from your doctrine.
I am of the firm belief that God loves us and wants us to know and understand him. I believe he gave us the scriptures for that very purpose. If we simply believe God's word and ask him for understanding he will open up the true interpretation to us if we are sincere. It is helpful at times to read the writings of men, but we must always remember that man is not infallable. Even good men, honest men sometimes misinterpret scripture.
James 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
When it comes to scripture, I claim this promise of God all the time. Whenever I do not understand a passage of scripture I ask God to help me understand it. I want to know God's interpretation, not the interpretation of men, and not even my own interpretation. And you may not believe me, but God has answered this prayer for me many times. I don't begin to think I understand much scripture, how can man understand the writings of God? But he does help us along if we ask him to help us. But you have to be willing to accept his interpretation, not what you want the scriptures to say.
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
Because as much as I like Hobbs. I appreciate Calvins evil sense of humor.
Jarthur001
Active Member
There are no contradictions...NONE.
Who is the World in this verse?
that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men’s sins against them.
Is it all of the world?...everone that is born?
Is it part of the world?
Did he mean world? ALL of the WORLD?
Romans 8...
Who? Name me one person that can keep us from God, if he wants us???
What power is greater?
John 1...
4In Him was Life, and the Life >>>>>>was the Light of men.
1 John 4...
13By this we come to know (perceive, recognize, and understand) that we abide (live and remain) in Him and He in us: because He has given (imparted) to us of His [Holy] Spirit.
How many more would you like?
:laugh:
What would a child say about Romans 9..???
13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated (held in [a]relative disregard in comparison with My feeling for Jacob)
Yes....what ever you do, don't read the Greek, from which we get the English!!!!
Good
good
Indeed
So...we know that some of what you just said is not true.
Yes...I have read your notes.
Yes...I agree
Who shall ever separate us from Christ's love?
good
hummm
Why would we believe God doesn't answer prayer?
You so sure that you post anti Calvinism junk, so you must be sure of something
Right you are
Indeed
"I have never cultivated the acquaintance nor desired the approbation of those men who shut their eyes to Truths of God which they do not wish to see. I never desired to be reputed so excessively Calvinistic as to neglect one part of Scripture in order to maintain another. If I am thought to be inconsistent with myself, I am very glad to be so, so long as I am not inconsistent with Holy Scripture. Sure I am that all the Truth of God is really consistent, but equally certain am I that it is not apparently so to our poor, finite minds. In nine cases out of ten he who is nervously anxious to be manifestly consistent with himself in his theological system, if he gains his end, is merely consistent with a fool!" —Charles Spurgeon, General and Yet Particular
Well, then you must have only read scripture presented to you by Calvinists, there are volumes of scripture that contradict Calvinism. I have presented dozens of verses myself here in the last several months.
Jesus died for 100% of mankind, even those who do not accept his offer of salvation. I will show you that.
2 Pet 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
Peter is clearly speaking of unsaved, lost men here. They are heretics and they are spreading "damnable heresies". They are bringing upon themselves swift destruction.
But notice Jesus "bought them". You will not accept that, but when Jesus poured out his blood he paid for their sins just as he did for those who accept Jesus and are the elect.
Want to see more?
Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
This verse says that because of the sin of Adam, the death penalty passed upon all men. Now, even you would agree that means 100% of mankind.
But now, read further, the very same verse says that by the righteousness of Jesus the free gift came upon "all men" unto justification of life.
Now, how can the first "all men" shown mean 100% of mankind in this verse, and the second "all men" mean only a few elect?
What you fail you understand is that Jesus has paid for 100% of mankind's sins, but this free gift must willingly be accepted through faith.
Heb 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
Here the writer (most likely Paul) says the gospel was preached to those who are saved and lost. It profited those who believed, but did not profit those who did not believe.
If Jesus did not die for the lost, then faith would be of no avail.
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