Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
Determinism is certainly untrue because if it were true we shouldn't consider the Determinist's arguments as really being arguments meant to persuade, provoke or convince our wills, but as conditioned reflexes meant to invoke the predetermined outcome.
Think about this practically. Why do Determinists debate? Isn't it because for all practical purposes they believe they can influence the outcome and somehow make us able to recognize the objective validity of their insightful arguments and be swayed? In short, the determinist, by engaging with us in debate, is for all practical purposes presuming the outcome has not been predetermined.
Now, I can already hear the objections: But we believe in MEANS! We could be the means God uses to convince or persuade a reader to believe our views and thus we were the pre-appointed means by which that predetermined outcome was realized. But, practically speaking, your argumentation didn't convince or persuade anyone except the one who determined their wills to be swayed. So, your argument, which, by the way, you only decided to make by His determination, served only to "persuade" Him to determine your hearer's will to be swayed. So, on one side of the debate you have God causally determining the will of you, the determinist, to make your arguments; and on the other side you have God causally determining the will of your opponent to either accept these well crafted arguments and be swayed or to reject them and remain in opposition. The nature of your argument (if you can even call it 'yours' considering that God is the one who determined it) does nothing that the determiner, God, hasn't already decided it would do.
It is a picture of God debating himself. God convincing himself. God persuading himself. God playing both sides of the chess board. That is the ultimate inner workings of this forum's purpose if determinism is true...a playground for God to use his pawns to debate theories about Himself. A self-defeating impractical worldview if I've ever seen one! But then again, maybe the opponent will show up with just the rightly worded conditioned reflex needed to causally determine me to be won over into the light of their wonderfully impractical self defeating existence? I can't wait...or can't I?
{btw, I know all Calvinists are not determinists in the since that you take things to the point of affirming God's complete determination of man's nature, desires and choices...but some here (like Luke) certainly are}
Think about this practically. Why do Determinists debate? Isn't it because for all practical purposes they believe they can influence the outcome and somehow make us able to recognize the objective validity of their insightful arguments and be swayed? In short, the determinist, by engaging with us in debate, is for all practical purposes presuming the outcome has not been predetermined.
Now, I can already hear the objections: But we believe in MEANS! We could be the means God uses to convince or persuade a reader to believe our views and thus we were the pre-appointed means by which that predetermined outcome was realized. But, practically speaking, your argumentation didn't convince or persuade anyone except the one who determined their wills to be swayed. So, your argument, which, by the way, you only decided to make by His determination, served only to "persuade" Him to determine your hearer's will to be swayed. So, on one side of the debate you have God causally determining the will of you, the determinist, to make your arguments; and on the other side you have God causally determining the will of your opponent to either accept these well crafted arguments and be swayed or to reject them and remain in opposition. The nature of your argument (if you can even call it 'yours' considering that God is the one who determined it) does nothing that the determiner, God, hasn't already decided it would do.
It is a picture of God debating himself. God convincing himself. God persuading himself. God playing both sides of the chess board. That is the ultimate inner workings of this forum's purpose if determinism is true...a playground for God to use his pawns to debate theories about Himself. A self-defeating impractical worldview if I've ever seen one! But then again, maybe the opponent will show up with just the rightly worded conditioned reflex needed to causally determine me to be won over into the light of their wonderfully impractical self defeating existence? I can't wait...or can't I?
"Determinism is self-stultifying. If my mental processes are totally determined, I am totally determined either to accept or to reject determinism. But if the sole reason for my believing or not believing X is that I am causally determined to believe it, I have no ground for holding that my judgment is true or false." (Christian Theism, Edinburgh: T and T Clark, 1984, p. 118)
{btw, I know all Calvinists are not determinists in the since that you take things to the point of affirming God's complete determination of man's nature, desires and choices...but some here (like Luke) certainly are}
