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Why become Catholic?
- Thread starter BobRyan
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BobRyan
Well-Known Member
"The church" yes - but why use that to embrace the errors and myths of the RCC denomination??
If those who have always been RC want to say "here are my top 3 compelling reasons" that is fine (try to pick something that will have a chance of appearing to be well-reasoned or even compelling to those Christians that are not RC).
But primarily I am looking for those who claim to have come here and then over the years CHANGED to a "wanna-be-RC" mindset. What are the top 5 or 10 or 3 reasons.
(Hopefully this will be something that is well reasoned as well).
I just don't see either of those groups making Bible based arguments "from details" in John 6 EVEN when we post those details WITH NUMBERS on them!! They flee the text that is supposed to be a strong suit for them!!
How in the world then - can they still hold up their head and say "yes I would seriously consider jumping on to such a baseless platform".
Is it the record (given by RC HISTORIANS themselves!) of Popes torturing their OWN Cardinals and tossing them over the sides of their PAPAL WARSHIPS!!???
What? What is it??
Why "terrifiying"??
Wouldn't it be FAR more Terrifying to be part of the insitutation slaughtering millions upon millions of BOTH CAtholic and NON Catholic Christians in the dark ages??? -- THE RCC?!!
How can both HISTORY and Scripture remain "a dark secret" from Catholics?
Surely you guys have some "Reasons" for making your decisions!
In Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
I would not become a JW - they don't have a strong doctrinal message that appeals to me - but they DO believe in making their case from the Bible.
However WHAT IF in addition to their doctrinal errors they ALSO have the problem of murdering fellow JWs by the MILLIONS and also in nations that have turned JW - slaughtered non-JWS by the MILLIONS. With self-confessed instances of incorporating PAGANISM into their worship!
I mean - could they get even ONE person to join then with such atrocities as "baggage"??
Yet somehow - there are people here who claim they are "considering a change" TO such a system!!
Where is the sanity in that???
In Christ,
Bob
However WHAT IF in addition to their doctrinal errors they ALSO have the problem of murdering fellow JWs by the MILLIONS and also in nations that have turned JW - slaughtered non-JWS by the MILLIONS. With self-confessed instances of incorporating PAGANISM into their worship!
I mean - could they get even ONE person to join then with such atrocities as "baggage"??
Yet somehow - there are people here who claim they are "considering a change" TO such a system!!
Where is the sanity in that???
In Christ,
Bob
Priscilla Ann
Member
Bob:
I also wondered what made bible christians join the Catholic Church. If you get EWTN (the Catholic TV channel), they have a show called "The Journey Home", where they interview people who have joined the Catholic Church. Some of them were protestant, some athiest, etc.
Typically, the protestant who joins the Catholic church will give one of the following reasons:
- "I fell in love with the eucharist."
- "I read the early church fathers."
- "I fell in love with Our Lady."
I have never heard one of the "Journey Home" guests give sound biblical reasons for joining the Catholic church; however, it is interesting the listen to them.
PA
I also wondered what made bible christians join the Catholic Church. If you get EWTN (the Catholic TV channel), they have a show called "The Journey Home", where they interview people who have joined the Catholic Church. Some of them were protestant, some athiest, etc.
Typically, the protestant who joins the Catholic church will give one of the following reasons:
- "I fell in love with the eucharist."
- "I read the early church fathers."
- "I fell in love with Our Lady."
I have never heard one of the "Journey Home" guests give sound biblical reasons for joining the Catholic church; however, it is interesting the listen to them.
PA
T
TP
Guest
Greetings,
You said catholics read scriptures with: fully free and open mind, expecting God to do as He promised and guide them into all truth.
Response: YOU don't read scripture with a Fully Free mind. That is impossible. You will read scripture with your pre-conceived notions. Nobody can empty there mind and then read scriptures. Catholics are the ONLY honest enough to say this.
You read scripture Knowing that Jesus Christ, son of God was incarnate, was crucified died and was risen, and he is the source of our salvation. YOU read scriptures Assuming this. Do You open the New Testaments saying: I don't know if Jesus will be divine when I read this: NO, YOU know Jesus is divine and you read scriptures Accordingly. BE HONEST, you have just as many assumptions reading scriptures as catholics do.
A nice easy way for catholics is: When you read scriptures, remember the apostles Creed. Those are safe boundries.
There is a reason when a Lutheran reads scripture and Wow, they interpret it as a Lutheran. Someone who in evangelical circles: Surprise, surprise, they interpret as an evangelical.
The RAPTURE is a perfect example. That Doctrine is only 200 years old. It became popular because it was put in the Scofield bible commentary. Then all those Evangelicals who Open their Scripture with a PERFECTLY open mind (using the commentary) all of a sudden believed in the Rapture.
Don't give me any of that Totally open mind garbage. It is not true.
peace
You said catholics read scriptures with: fully free and open mind, expecting God to do as He promised and guide them into all truth.
Response: YOU don't read scripture with a Fully Free mind. That is impossible. You will read scripture with your pre-conceived notions. Nobody can empty there mind and then read scriptures. Catholics are the ONLY honest enough to say this.
You read scripture Knowing that Jesus Christ, son of God was incarnate, was crucified died and was risen, and he is the source of our salvation. YOU read scriptures Assuming this. Do You open the New Testaments saying: I don't know if Jesus will be divine when I read this: NO, YOU know Jesus is divine and you read scriptures Accordingly. BE HONEST, you have just as many assumptions reading scriptures as catholics do.
A nice easy way for catholics is: When you read scriptures, remember the apostles Creed. Those are safe boundries.
There is a reason when a Lutheran reads scripture and Wow, they interpret it as a Lutheran. Someone who in evangelical circles: Surprise, surprise, they interpret as an evangelical.
The RAPTURE is a perfect example. That Doctrine is only 200 years old. It became popular because it was put in the Scofield bible commentary. Then all those Evangelicals who Open their Scripture with a PERFECTLY open mind (using the commentary) all of a sudden believed in the Rapture.
Don't give me any of that Totally open mind garbage. It is not true.
peace
S
Sirach
Guest
Is it not strange how the Catholic Church can not prove one Scripture, in fact any evidence at all, that Jesus instituted the Catholic Church. I request you withdraw that statement, unless you can back it up with valid evidence. It is a worthless claim.
DHK </font>[/QUOTE]Well, here is what Encyclopedia Britannica has to say about it... there must be some validity...
http://www.britannica.com/eb/article?tocId=9109700&query=roman%20catholicism&ct=eb
Roman Catholicism
Christian church characterized by its uniform, highly developed doctrinal and organizational structure that traces its history to the Apostles of Jesus Christ in the 1st century AD. Along with Eastern Orthodoxy and Protestantism, it is one of the three major branches of Christianity.
If the Britannica is correct, then we should all be Catholic.
You are so off on what the Catholic Church teaches, how can we trust your research with anything else, especially with Scripture and Christian History?
We can agree to disagree with Britannica and the Catholic Church but to say it's a worthless claim is un-Christian.
God Bless,
Sirach
Roman Catholicism
Christian church characterized by its uniform, highly developed doctrinal and organizational structure that traces its history to the Apostles of Jesus Christ in the 1st century AD. Along with Eastern Orthodoxy and Protestantism, it is one of the three major branches of Christianity.
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Actually that says nothing about whether the Catholic Church goes back to the apostles. It says it is the . . . "structure that traces its history to the Apostles. . ." The subject is the Catholic Church which traces its own history to the Apostles. That says nothing about whether or not the Catholic Church actually can be traced to the apostles, only saying that the Catholic Church traces itself to the Apostles.
Christian church characterized by its uniform, highly developed doctrinal and organizational structure that traces its history to the Apostles of Jesus Christ in the 1st century AD. Along with Eastern Orthodoxy and Protestantism, it is one of the three major branches of Christianity.
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Actually that says nothing about whether the Catholic Church goes back to the apostles. It says it is the . . . "structure that traces its history to the Apostles. . ." The subject is the Catholic Church which traces its own history to the Apostles. That says nothing about whether or not the Catholic Church actually can be traced to the apostles, only saying that the Catholic Church traces itself to the Apostles.
StefanM, did you not click on the link? The Christian church in the article IS Roman Catholicism that is being discussed. And the article is quite clear in that the church’s structure can traces its history to the Apostles of Jesus Christ.
What a play on words you did there. Reminds me of myself a few months
S
Sirach
Guest
That is your opinion which you have a right too. There are also a lot of compelling proofs in the first Christian writings from the people that were taught by the Apostles, and the people they taught, and so on...
The writings can be baught here:
http://www.logos.com/products/details/518
Or Read for free here:
http://www.NewAdvent.org/Fathers/
A note from the Logos site:
The Early Church Fathers CD-ROM comes in two versions, Protestant and Catholic. Simply put, the difference is that the Protestant edition contains additional front matter written at a later date. There is no difference in the actual ECF text.
Why would the protestant version need "additional front matter"? How can both Protestants and Catholics use the same writings of the first Chritsians and believe such different things?
Someone has to be wrong, because the Scriptures are clear that there is one faith, and to be united in Faith. The Scriptures are clear that people will distort the Scriptures. It seems to me that we should read more of the Early Church Fathers writings because I think they would know the true meaning of Scriptures better than anyone picking up a bible today, especially since the Apostles taught them and they were instructed to teach trustworthy men, and Christ promised that they would never be overcome.
God Bless,
Sirach
I stand by my original assessment, which was neutral. Linguistically, the article said nothing about whether or not the claims were valid. They could be, or they might not be. Nevertheless, the article only said what the claims of the Catholic Church are.
I don't follow your argument, john 6:63, but I can see a need to clarify my statement a bit.
ANALYSIS:
Roman Catholicism [title]
[Christian church (subject)] [characterized by its uniform, highly developed doctrinal and organizational structure (phrase which modifies the subject] [that traces its history to the Apostles of Jesus Christ in the 1st century AD(relative clause modifying the subject].
Subject = RCC
Modifying phrase = describes the characteristics of the RCC
Relative clause = describes how the RCC traces its history
I don't follow your argument, john 6:63, but I can see a need to clarify my statement a bit.
ANALYSIS:
Roman Catholicism [title]
[Christian church (subject)] [characterized by its uniform, highly developed doctrinal and organizational structure (phrase which modifies the subject] [that traces its history to the Apostles of Jesus Christ in the 1st century AD(relative clause modifying the subject].
Subject = RCC
Modifying phrase = describes the characteristics of the RCC
Relative clause = describes how the RCC traces its history
Bingo! Which is exactly why I am considering the Catholic faith. Who was more likely to have understood the teaching of the apostles correctly, those early writers we call the Fathers of the Church or the Protestant Reformers who came on the scene about thirteen centuries after the Fathers?
Priscilla Ann
Member
john6:63:
Can you tell me what the teachings of the apostles were on indulgences, purgatory, the perpetual virginity of Mary, etc.? Did the apostles instruct us to pray to anyone other than God the Father, Son or Holy Spirit?
These are important questions to consider if you are seriously considering the Catholic faith. They are the questions that brought me to the conclusion that I could no longer be a Catholic.
PA
Can you tell me what the teachings of the apostles were on indulgences, purgatory, the perpetual virginity of Mary, etc.? Did the apostles instruct us to pray to anyone other than God the Father, Son or Holy Spirit?
These are important questions to consider if you are seriously considering the Catholic faith. They are the questions that brought me to the conclusion that I could no longer be a Catholic.
PA
Sirach,
I quoted from the Catholic Catechism regarding the Catholic Churches cultic view of the scriptures, that the Catholic is obligated to accept all the scriptural interpretations of The Hierarchy of the Catholic Church.
I then said...
I did not...
And yes, I also sometimes link to sites that are run by ex-Catholics who now minster to Catholics in their attempt to help them see the truth about the Catholic Church. Those sites are a great great blessing and help to the body of Christ.
God bless,
Mike
I know the verses and I completly reject that CC butchering of those scriptures
I've read it more times than I can count.
"The Church" is nothing more than all christians. God promises to guide all christians into all truth. The Catholic Church decieves people into thinking that it means the "Majesterium" of the religious organisation called the Catholic Church. That is a lie.
You better believe it. Thank God that every christian can rely on God to do that very thing through the Holy Spirit.
Yes.
I sure hope you do. If not now, then one day.
Catholics are forbidden, commanded by The Hierarchy of the Catholic Church to NOT believe the truth of those passages of scripture.
Of course they are. In those situations if the brothers cant resolve things they should consult other reasonable and wise brothers and sisters in Christ to help them. Thats all "the church" is.
I never make that claim. Only groups like the Jehovahs Witnesses and the Catholic church make that claim.
You have just publically slandered me.
I quoted from the Catholic Catechism regarding the Catholic Churches cultic view of the scriptures, that the Catholic is obligated to accept all the scriptural interpretations of The Hierarchy of the Catholic Church.
I then said...
(See it? A satanic "view".)
CLEARLY, I was referring to the particular teaching of the Catholic Church regarding the Catholics obligation to believe whatever interpretation of scripture that The Magesterium tells them is true. That idea is what I referred to as satanic, because it is.
I did not...
(and no, I am not concerned with whether you apologise or not. Its normal to get worked up sometimes regarding these issues. Its no big deal)
Nonsense. Regarding the view the Catholic Church regarding their interpretation of the scriptures, I was simply telling the truth.
Not so. Since I have been born again I regularly investigate CATHOLIC SOURCES to make sure I'm not slandering them. The on-line Catholic Encyclopeia (not an *official* Catholic source, but every Catholic I have ever dialogued with tells me its good and accurate), the official Vatican Web-site, yhe Catholic Catechism, the "Catholic Answers" web-site (I see you have put up a link to that one)and other highly regarded...by Catholics...Catholic Web-sites.
And yes, I also sometimes link to sites that are run by ex-Catholics who now minster to Catholics in their attempt to help them see the truth about the Catholic Church. Those sites are a great great blessing and help to the body of Christ.
Unfortunetly, the truth regarding Catholicism will probably only be "pointless" to those who are so fully indoctrinated into Catholicism that the steel walls are inpenetrable. I say "probably" because God can and still does perform miracles.
God bless,
Mike
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Ahh finally! Thank you Priscilla Ann!
Finally someone digs until they find an RC list!!
So sad our current RC leaning members could not "think" of why THEY THEMSELVES are doing what they are doing!
Is it just that it is easier to complain about others than to actually say why "you" (as in not PA) are thinking of the RCC more and more these days?
So far - Priscilla gets the prize for being the most logical, forthright, above board Catholic POV responder and she is NOT leaning to Catholicism at ALL!!
Come you guys - you are not even trying!
In Christ,
Bob
S
Sirach
Guest
How do we know that you are not butchering the scriptures?
It doesn't hurt to read it again
If the Church is all Christians, and we all disagree, then how is the Holy Spirit guiding us in ALL truth?
Be honest, that is not a reasonable answer.
How do we know that you are not trying to decieve us?
Can truth contradict truth? If every Christian had "all truth" then we would ALL have the same interpretation of Scripture and agree on Salvation, Grace, Faith, Works, Baptism, John 6, etc...
Please explain how we can have all truth yet disagree on so much.
Really Mike? Where is that in the Catechism?
Here is what I found that the Catholic Church teaches about Scripture....
CCC 81
"Sacred Scripture is the speech of God as it is put down in writing under the breath of the Holy Spirit."
Growth in understanding the faith
CCC 94
Thanks to the assistance of the Holy Spirit, the understanding of both the realities and the words of the heritage of faith is able to grow in the life of the Church:
—"through the contemplation and study of believers who ponder these things in their hearts";57 it is in particular "theological research [which] deepens knowledge of revealed truth."58
—"from the intimate sense of spiritual realities which [believers] experience,"59 the sacred Scriptures "grow with the one who reads them."60
—"from the preaching of those who have received, along with their right of succession in the episcopate, the sure charism of truth."61
CCC 104
In Sacred Scripture, the Church constantly finds her nourishment and her strength, for she welcomes it not as a human word, "but as what it really is, the word of God."67 "In the sacred books, the Father who is in heaven comes lovingly to meet his children, and talks with them."68
CCC 105
God is the author of Sacred Scripture. "The divinely revealed realities, which are contained and presented in the text of Sacred Scripture, have been written down under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit."69
CCC 107
The inspired books teach the truth. "Since therefore all that the inspired authors or sacred writers affirm should be regarded as affirmed by the Holy Spirit, we must acknowledge that the books of Scripture firmly, faithfully, and without error teach that truth which God, for the sake of our salvation, wished to see confided to the Sacred Scriptures."
CCC 108
Still, the Christian faith is not a "religion of the book." Christianity is the religion of the "Word" of God, a word which is "not a written and mute word, but the Word which is incarnate and living."73 If the Scriptures are not to remain a dead letter, Christ, the eternal Word of the living God, must, through the Holy Spirit, "open [our] minds to understand the Scriptures."74
Mike, that doesn't sound like that they are forbidden to believe the truth in Scripture... it sounds like they are told to believe it. They have quite a bit on what they teach about Scripture in the Catholic Catechism... for all to see... http://www.USCCB.org
How is it that you are so wrong on something that is in plain black and white online for the whole world to see? If you are so wrong about what Catholics are taught when you could have easily checked for yourself what they are taught, how can I take anything you say about the Catholic Church seriously, let alone what you think the Scriptures mean? Lying about another group of people is not what Christians do, Mike. Listening to rumors about another group and spreading them without looking into it for yourself is not what Christians do, Mike.
I will pray for you.
Every other point you made is mute because of how much in error you are with your criticisms based on falsehoods.
Maybe you are sincere in what you think the Catholic Church teaches, but then that would show that your research techniques need help... Only you and God know.
Get the facts bro.
God Bless,
Sirach
S
Sirach
Guest
Priscilla Ann
Member
Sirach:
Yes, I have heard all of the Catholic explanations. I spent a lot of time at EWTN.com before I left the Catholic church.
By the way, the Catholic rationalization of indulgences is something that you cannot get from scripture, unless, of course you pluck a verse here and there out of its context. I know because I looked up all of those verses years ago.
I tried to rationalize the Catholic teachings every way I could, because I did not want to leave the Catholic church. But the truth of God's Word prevailed, and he provided a way out. By the way, my Catholic parents and I now have some of the best spiritual conversations we have ever had. God does work in mysterious ways!
Praise God!
PA
Yes, I have heard all of the Catholic explanations. I spent a lot of time at EWTN.com before I left the Catholic church.
By the way, the Catholic rationalization of indulgences is something that you cannot get from scripture, unless, of course you pluck a verse here and there out of its context. I know because I looked up all of those verses years ago.
I tried to rationalize the Catholic teachings every way I could, because I did not want to leave the Catholic church. But the truth of God's Word prevailed, and he provided a way out. By the way, my Catholic parents and I now have some of the best spiritual conversations we have ever had. God does work in mysterious ways!
Praise God!
PA
TP,
You quoted me...
All it takes is to open their mind and let God open their understanding to His truth.
I believe those things to be truth because the scriptures reveal them as being true, and God has opened my understanding to those truths.
If those truths didnt come from the scriptures, but I already assumed them to be true, could you kindly tell me who clued me in on those things...the tooth fairy?
STOP IT!
Open you mind and heart to Gods wooing and guiding as you feed on Gods truth.
And you personally know the heart of every born again person over the course of the last 200 years, and you know beyond any doubt that nobody believed it in between the 1st century and the last 2000 years?
Here is a link that will help you with the Rapture teaching through the centuries. Numerous quotes from previous centuries are included...
Rapture through the centuries
I'm glad to say that it most certainly IS true.
God bless,
Mike
You quoted me...
And then said...
I'm afraid I do.
Its entirely possible.
Ahhh, but we can seek to do that. And that is all God asks of us. Some people have a more difficult time than others in getting rid of falsehood and garbage that was fed to them in the past. And God is very very VERY good at replacing garbage with truth. The Holy Spirit can work very VERY well with someone who is seeking to get rid of the error and falsehood and truly open themself to truth straight from God Himself through the Holy Spirit.
I wish with all my heart that Catholics could come to grips with Gods desire that they take the Catholic Church off of the throne as "truth dispenser" and place God back on it where He belongs.
All it takes is to open their mind and let God open their understanding to His truth.
I will be honest. That was one of the weirdest paragraphs I've ever read in my life.
I believe those things to be truth because the scriptures reveal them as being true, and God has opened my understanding to those truths.
If those truths didnt come from the scriptures, but I already assumed them to be true, could you kindly tell me who clued me in on those things...the tooth fairy?
Theres nothing wrong with the apostles creed. Its OK. But its not in the least bit needed.
If THAT is the reason why they believe certain things, then I would say the same thing to them that I say to Catholics.
STOP IT!
Open you mind and heart to Gods wooing and guiding as you feed on Gods truth.
Even though its in the scriptures...its 200 years old?
And you personally know the heart of every born again person over the course of the last 200 years, and you know beyond any doubt that nobody believed it in between the 1st century and the last 2000 years?
Here is a link that will help you with the Rapture teaching through the centuries. Numerous quotes from previous centuries are included...
Rapture through the centuries
It comes straight from the scriptures, and was believed centuries ago, as the link shows.
Well of course you are going to say that. Your Church keeps their people in compliance by forbidding them to believe anything other than that which The Hierarchy commands them to believe.
I'm glad to say that it most certainly IS true.
God bless,
Mike
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