EricB:
Again, we know nothing right now. We are creatures trapped in time. "if we continue" does not deal with now. Everything remains up in the air and uncertain.
Continuing means just that--you're continuing in something
you are already by God’s grace doing. We know if we continue in Christ we still have salvation since salvation is in HIM. Again, the NT is full of conditional commands/statements regarding our faith and salvation and our need to
continue...
“ …the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and
in which you stand (present tense), by which you are also saved
if you hold fast the word which I preached to you—
unless you believed in vain. (1 Cor 15:2)”
“ Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but towards you goodness,
if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. (Romans 11:22)”
“ And you, who were once alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy and blameless, and above reproach in His sight—
if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard. (Colossians 1:23)”
“For we have become partakers of Christ,
if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end. (Hebrews 3:14)”
Hence, you cannot say you "know" anything. On the other hand, once you begin following the Spirit's conviction, you can haughtily presume...
That's absurd--if you are following the Spirit's conviction you don't "haughtily presume" anything. In fact, if anyone can be scripturally charged with being haughty it's the OSAS folks—the ones who think once they are “grafted in” they can never be “cut off” from Christ…to which Paul replies: “because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith.
Do not be haughty but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches He may not spare you either.” (Romans 11:20-21).
Scripture also says:
"God opposes the proud, but
gives grace to the humble." (James 4:6)
"Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and He will lift you up." (James 4:10)
"Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall." (1 Corinthians 10:12)
there are many sins we are not even aware of, (or other deficiencies in our walk in Christ), which we become aware of as we grow, and become more sensitive to the Spirit's conviction.
True, and as we become aware of them we CONFESS and WE REPENT OF THEM.
So if we are saved by being free of sin, then once again, nobody can be saved.
Wrong we are saved
from sin, not
in sin. We're promised that we are being transformed into the image of Christ Himself. But for this to take place we have to be abiding in Him, not rebelling against Him.
Yes, but now for those who have already repented (turned to Christ) there is no longer the constant danger of falling away.
Wrong. Repentance is ongoing, especially when the Spirit reveals areas in our life we need to repent of.
John wrote to
Christians:
“Remember therefore from where you have fallen;
repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place unless you
repent.” (Rev 2:5)
“Remember therefore how you have received and heard;
hold fast and repent.”(Rev 3:3)
In John 15, the "fruit" is a result of the "abiding" (that's why it's called "fruit"), and not the other way around.
I never said otherwise. Of course, we must abide in Christ to bear fruit, but if we
don't abide in Christ we
won't bear fruit.
However, how does one abide in Christ? Well, by keeping His commandments:
“Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him.” (1 John 3:24)
Also by partaking of His Body and Blood in the Eucharist:
“He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.” (John 6:56)
Actually the two go hand in hand. We’re nourished by our communion with Christ in the Eucharist and are enabled by His grace given therein to keep His commands.
I didn't say he was against all works in themselves, but as means of justification, yes.
No. If that's the case Paul would be contradicting James:
“You see then that a man is
justified by works and not by faith only. (James 2:24)”
Also we're judged and given eternal life according to our works:
“God ‘who will render to each one according to his deeds’: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; and to those who are self-seeking and who do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil. (Romans 2:6-9)
"Careful" means "to excercise thought". It's actually derived from the word "phren" meaning "mind". It is not saying you are doing it out of fear for eternity.
It doesn’t say “fear for eternity” explicitly, but the context is regarding our saving faith and how we must continue in it or we too will be cut off.
Both chapters, we see the context of these statements: 2:5, "the Day of wrath of the righteous judgment of God"; 11:12, "the fall of them". THese both refer initially to AD70.
The context of Romans 2:5 is the final judgment.
In fact, all of this "cutting off" that was threatened to THEM-- what do you think that refers to? Dying and going to Hell? No, it was something that was going to happen in their lifetimes.
If they are cut off from Christ then they are cut off from salvation, whether it's before, during, or after AD 70.
Now, my position is what I call "dual fulfillment", meaning that there is still a resurrection and judgment in the future for us; but these statements I have seen are better understood as in the relevance of the immediate audience.
So even if there's a "dual fulfillment" (of
sorts) it doesn't mean you get to "have your cake and eat it too". God’s commands to “abide”, “hold fast”, “remain”, “stand firm”, “continue”, etc apply just as much
after 70 AD as they do before.
But that doesn't say He only becomes our advocate each time we "confess and repent" after each sin. Remember, the contrast is "confess" vs. "say we have no sin", not "confess" vs. "not saved".
Yet it's when we confess that we become cleansed. He’s not an Advocate for the unrepentant unless they
do repent.
"fear and Trembling", while literally meaning "afraid", "terror", etc. are also used in Gal.6:5 for servants to masters. So this obviously is a figurative sense of reverence. This opposed to "menpleasers", which would be more int he line of the [literal] "terror" and "merit" based service you seem to be advocating.
I do not advocate a "merit" based system at all. When we do our good works it’s
not in the context of trying to “merit” or “earn” salvation as if God is
obligated by our works to give us salvation. On the contrary, our attitude should be as that of the servants in Luke 17: “So likewise, when you have done all those things which you are commanded say, ‘We are unprofitable servants. We have done what was our duty to do.’” (Luke 17:10)
However, the wicked carnal servant will be cut in two and have his place assigned with that of the unbelievers. (Luke 12:46)
So though one is not saved
by works, he is not saved
without works either.
Not when you simply turn it into a mask for a system of works, that is basically the same as the old. The whole point of the blood of bulls not being able to take away sins is that that system was alla bout man's works, while Christ is God's work. You're just transferring the whole system over to the new covenant, changing some of the rituals, and replacing the animals with Christ.
Christ did not abrogate the moral "law". Those who sow to the flesh will continue to reap destruction (Gal 6:8); this applies just as much after the advent of the New Covenant as it did before.
Listen to Paul (speaking to
Christians): “If you live according to the sinful nature you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.” (Romans 8:13)
CHRIST HIMSELF said: “Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which
all who are in their graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have
done good to the resurrection of life, and
those who have done evil to the resurrection of condemnation.” (John 5:28-29)
You can’t spin this to apply to AD 70 or only to the “Old Covenant”. This occurs at
the end at the final judgment.
Again, v. 37, all of this warning is for something in "yet a little while". (Psst. Hebrews and John were both inspired by the same God!)
(Psst--and neither John nor the author of Hebrews were preterists!)
And that's the problem. Salvation is in our hands.
You're mischaracterizing my position. Ultimately your beef is with the plain statements of Scripture mentioned above where the inspired writers of Scripture say that eternal security
is conditional on our “standing”, “continuing”, “abiding”, “holding fast”, “enduring”, etc. God enables us to do all these things. If He didn’t, we couldn’t. However, He does, so we must.
And just what do you mean by all of this talk of "walking in darkness", "leaving Him", etc.
I mean just what I say. It's not very difficult.
If we stay with Him, we can thank both ourselves and Him (for merely providing the "instructions". What kind of grace is this?
It's grace that teaches us not to sin—to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts while living soberly, righteously, and godly (Titus 2:11-12). It's not a "grace" that is a license to sin (Jude 4)
How is He "changing" us? We're doing everything.
That's not true. You keep repeating the same straw man allegation that antinomians like to make. We're most certainly
not doing everything. It's God who is working
in us both to will and to do His good pleasure. We must however work
out this salvation rather than neglect it, reject it, of forfeit it. It's only by submitting ourselves to Christ and abiding in Him that we changes us and we can bear fruit. Apart from Him we can do nothing. If we don't abide in Him we can't bear fruit, and any branch
in Him that doesn't bear fruit He casts out as a branch to be burned.
The whole attempt to relegate the conditional and warning passages to before some magical cut-off time such as 70 AD--a position unheard of in the Church until apparently
very recently
--shows how bankrupt the OSAS/antinomian position really is Scripturally. Christians--Jews and Gentiles--faced severe persecutions even
after 70 AD and the temptation was always there to fall away. There was nothing magically different about Nero's persecution than to, say, Domitian's (when John wrote
Revelation) or Diocletian's or any in between (or any
afterwards for that matter), and salvation was no more or less "stable" after AD 70 than before. There was no indication that those suffering under Domitian's persecution (or any subsequent ones) thought: "Pshew! At least we're living after the Temple's Destruction so if we fall away in this persecution we're still 'saved', praise Jesus!"
