Why believers cannot resist sinful temptations? (continue conversation)

[The Biblicist]

Walter, you don't have to keep restating your case. I get it. I disagree with you.

Really, your argument begs the question because your argument is only true if your system is true.

No, this is where you are just wrong! These are indisputable facts of scripture that are repeated over and over again from the Old to the New Testament. Only YOUR SYSTEM denies that God can justly condemn fallen men for coming short of His Law due to inability.

No HONEST Bible students can possibly deny these two facts:

1. Israel was obligated by God to keep the Law when God fully realized they were unable to keep it - Deut. 5:29

2. Israel is justly condemned for failing to keep the law

Only YOUR SYSTEM has no answer to JUSTIFY this priinciple applied by God through the law to all men and so your system is forced to deny this clear and obvious principle that is applied in Scripture.

Only our system can harmonize this with the justice of God. This principle is JUSTIFIED by the whole human race existing and consisting as ONE HUMAN NATURE acting in unison in ONE MAN (Rom. 5:12-19). Hence, they willingly forfeited their ABILITY TO LIVE SINLESS when they sinned and thus fell into a STATE OF INABILITY (Rom. 8:7). Therefore, God is perfectly just to demand of FALLEN MEN what they are unable to do and He did and He does this by obligating all men to keep His Law knowing full well they are unable to subject themselves to His Law DUE TO THEIR OWN FAULT - Rom. 8:7/Rom. 5:12-19.

Only OUR SYSTEM can justify this principle by God through the Law

 

[The Biblicist]

No, this is where you are just wrong! These are indisputable facts of scripture that are repeated over and over again from the Old to the New Testament. Only YOUR SYSTEM denies that God can justly condemn fallen men for coming short of His Law due to inability.

No HONEST Bible students can possibly deny these two facts:

1. Israel was obligated by God to keep the Law when God fully realized they were unable to keep it - Deut. 5:29

2. Israel is justly condemned for failing to keep the law

Only YOUR SYSTEM has no answer to JUSTIFY this priinciple applied by God through the law to all men and so your system is forced to deny this clear and obvious principle that is applied in Scripture.

Only our system can harmonize this with the justice of God. This principle is JUSTIFIED by the whole human race existing and consisting as ONE HUMAN NATURE acting in unison in ONE MAN (Rom. 5:12-19). Hence, they willingly forfeited their ABILITY TO LIVE SINLESS when they sinned and thus fell into a STATE OF INABILITY (Rom. 8:7). Therefore, God is perfectly just to demand of FALLEN MEN what they are unable to do and He did and He does this by obligating all men to keep His Law knowing full well they are unable to subject themselves to His Law DUE TO THEIR OWN FAULT - Rom. 8:7/Rom. 5:12-19.

Only OUR SYSTEM can justify this principle by God through the Law

I realize that Skandelon will just keep repeating his denial as he has no other option, as admission to this Biblical principle simply destroys his whole system of intepretation.

Therefore, I will proceed to just prove this principle from God's Word:

1. God obligated Israel to keep His commandments

Le 20:8 And ye shall keep my statutes, and do them: I am the LORD which sanctify you.

Le 20:22 Ye shall therefore keep all my statutes, and all my judgments, and do them: that the land, whither I bring you to dwell therein, spue you not out.


2. God knew full well they were unable to keep this obligation even when He first obligated them to do so

Deut. 5:29 O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!

Rom. 3:19 ¶ Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Jn. 7:19 Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me?

Rom. 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.



3. This failure is condemned as sin under penalty of death

1 Jn. 3:4 ¶ Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

Rom. 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Rom. 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; .

Jn. 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Note: No one is born into this world as a believer and so all men are condemned already.



Potential future salvation does not change or deny this principle. No Post-Salvation can overturn or deny that FALLEN MAN was obligated by God to do what He knew they were without ability to do and yet justly condemned. Fallen men still have the same inability to be subject to the law of God, neither indeed can they be and they are still condemned justly.

Rom. 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

The only interpretation of Romans 5:12-15 that can JUSTIFY God obligating FALLEN HUMANITY to do what He knows they are unable to do and condemn them as sinners deserving death is our interpretation. Skandelon's system cannot reconcile this principle with his system and so he is forced to deny it exists.

 

[Skandelon]

Only YOUR SYSTEM denies that God can justly condemn fallen men for coming short of His Law due to inability.

One more time then I'm done. I can only repeat something so many times.

My system does not deny that God could justly condemn fallen men for coming short for His law. I've said no less than five times that God COULD JUSTLY choose to condemn all of mankind for breaking his law, but that He chose to show mercy instead.

How many times should someone have to say that before you acknowledge what has been said?

2. Israel is justly condemned for failing to keep the law

So you believe that every Jew throughout all of history is condemned and in hell? Of course you don't. Why? Because God showed them mercy. So, even by your own system you can't claim that God condemned everyone for failing to keep the law...because He didn't (He could have, but he didn't). Your system teaches that mercy was effectually applied to a particular number of Jews and the rest were condemned from birth without hope, which is UNIQUE to your system. I believe God shows mercy to all men, thus those who remain in unbelief stand condemned without the excuse that Calvinism's system teaches...i.e. "I was born unable to do otherwise."

 

[Skandelon]

I realize that Skandelon will just keep repeating his denial as he has no other option, as admission to this Biblical principle simply destroys his whole system of intepretation.

Why are you acting surprised that a non-Calvinist would deny the foundational premise of Calvinism? And why on earth are you acting as if everyone here would automatically just accept your premises as facts of scripture, when those are the very points up for debate on a Calvinism/Arminianism Debate forum?

 

[Skandelon]

Biblicist, can I ask a favor? Can your restate my position on this subject as you understand it in your own words? Just one short paragraph fairly outlining what you think our system ACTUALLY believes and teaches regarding this point. Please. I'm asking nicely.

I really just want to feel like you are understanding me and that you are really willing to fairly represent my perspective. It will help keep this discussion on good terms, I think. I will gladly do the same for you if you desire.

 

[The Biblicist]

My system does not deny that God could justly condemn fallen men for coming short for His law. I've said no less than five times that God COULD JUSTLY choose to condemn all of mankind for breaking his law, but that He chose to show mercy instead.

I provided the black and while evidence that God DID. You run from the scriptures to SUPPOSITIONAL PHILOSOPHY as that is the only refuge you have to continue this conversation.

My position is the indisputable FACT of Scripture while your position is the indisputable repudiation of scripture. You cannot respond to the scriptures given becuase there is no response except denial of what they explicitly and clearly demand God DID and is DOING rather than your "could, can, or might" philosophical speculative nonsense!

So you believe that every Jew throughout all of history is condemned and in hell?

You can't respond to the scriptures so you attempt to distort and deflect. Hell or salvation does NOT alter the indisputable fact of what God has already DONE. He has commanded fallen man to do what He knows they cannot do and condemned them as sinners! That is a indisputable unchangable fact. Whether their ultimate eternal condition is heaven or hell does not change that fact. Salvation is something ADDITIONAL to that fact! Hell is certain due to that fact UNLESS God IN ADDITION TO THAT FACT saves them. Neither changes that fact.

Because God showed them mercy.

This very statement is a confession by you that acknowledges that fact or do you not understand the meaning of "mercy"? Mercy only exists if JUST CONDEMNATION is present, as "MERCY" is not getting WHAT YOU DESERVE. So "mercy" reinforces this fact rather than denies it.

Any objective reader should easily see your view contradicts the clear and explicit teachings of scripture and it is not whether God "could, can, may, or might" but God DID and DOES demand of fallen men what they are not able to do in regard to the law and justly condemns them to be sinners. Only our system provides the justification for what God DID and continues to DO.

 

[Protestant]

I believe God shows mercy to all men, thus those who remain in unbelief stand condemned

Little by little your doctrinal system is becoming more transparent.

May we understand Prevenient Grace as one of your doctrinal tenets?

By this I mean 'sufficient, enabling grace is given to all men so that they are able to believe only if they will to believe.'

Thus, the good and holy application of man's free will is the determining factor in his salvation.

without the excuse that Calvinism's system teaches...i.e. "I was born unable to do otherwise."

On the contrary, we teach what Scripture teaches.......that those who refuse Christ do so because "they will not have that man reign over them."

They 'will not' freely and voluntarily.

Please cite one Bible verse in which a man who has rejected Christ pleads that he really wanted to be a disciple of Christ but God's eternal decree forbade it.

If you cannot cite one supporting verse, then the underlying principles of your system are false and should be openly repudiated by you.

 

[Skandelon]

Biblicist, I will reply to the parts that actually address my rebuttals. I will ignore the parts that (1) simply repeat your perspective or (2) beg the question or (3) belittle the person rather than address the subject....

I provided the black and while evidence that God DID. You run from the scriptures to SUPPOSITIONAL PHILOSOPHY as that is the only refuge you have to continue this conversation.

My position is the indisputable FACT of Scripture while your position is the indisputable repudiation of scripture. You cannot respond to the scriptures given becuase there is no response except denial of what they explicitly and clearly demand God DID and is DOING rather than your "could, can, or might" philosophical speculative nonsense!

You can't respond to the scriptures so you attempt to distort and deflect. Hell or salvation does NOT alter the indisputable fact of what God has already DONE. He has commanded fallen man to do what He knows they cannot do and condemned them as sinners! That is a indisputable unchangable fact. Whether their ultimate eternal condition is heaven or hell does not change that fact. Salvation is something ADDITIONAL to that fact! Hell is certain due to that fact UNLESS God IN ADDITION TO THAT FACT saves them. Neither changes that fact.

Any objective reader should easily see your view contradicts the clear and explicit teachings of scripture and it is not whether God "could, can, may, or might" but God DID and DOES demand of fallen men what they are not able to do in regard to the law and justly condemns them to be sinners. Only our system provides the justification for what God DID and continues to DO.

All done...

 

[Skandelon]

This is one point I actually agree with and should be noted:

Mercy only exists if JUST CONDEMNATION is present, as "MERCY" is not getting WHAT YOU DESERVE. So "mercy" reinforces this fact rather than denies it.

I agree with this point, which is why Paul said, "God bound all men over to disobedience so he might show mercy to all men," rather than "God bound all men over to disobedience in order to condemn all except preselected few."

You must remember that I've argued all along that God is just to condemn all men, but instead has chosen not to do so.

 

[Skandelon]

Biblicist, can I ask a favor? Can your restate my position on this subject as you understand it in your own words? Just one short paragraph fairly outlining what you think our system ACTUALLY believes and teaches regarding this point. Please. I'm asking nicely.

I really just want to feel like you are understanding me and that you are really willing to fairly represent my perspective. It will help keep this discussion on good terms, I think. I will gladly do the same for you if you desire.

No?????????

 

[BobRyan]

Just stating the obvious solution here.

- that the REASON God is just in condemning the lost who do not keep the Law of God - is because ALL are DRAWN - "I will DRAW ALL men unto me" John 12.32

And "even the Calvinists" will admit that the Drawing of God - ENABLES the choice to choose the Gospel.

Thus ALL that are condemned as Paul says in Romans 1 are "Without excuse" for as we have seen repeatedly from Romans 8 - once the lost sinner is born again they can keep the Law of God rather than having to claim that it is impossible.

 

[The Biblicist]

Just stating the obvious solution here.

Your interpretation of this passage has been so thoroughly proven to be wrong that even Skandelon conceded that "all" referred to all without distinction rather than all without exception.

You had absolutely no response EXCEPT just repeat it. So why deal with someone who deals with evidence the way you do?????? Pointless!

 

[Skandelon]

May we understand Prevenient Grace as one of your doctrinal tenets?

No, I don't hold to that 'term'...though I suppose one could refer to any gracious act of God which enables men to respond to him as "prevenient" if they wanted to. I just prefer to stick with the biblical terms. The gospel is the power of God...'the very words that Jesus spoke are spirit and life.' It is by the preached work of God that men are born again (1 Peter 1), etc.

By this I mean 'sufficient, enabling grace is given to all men so that they are able to believe only if they will to believe.'

If that's all that is meant, then yes I would affirm it.

Thus, the good and holy application of man's free will is the determining factor in his salvation.

Not necessarily. Was the determining factor of the prodigal's sons reconciliation the decision of the son to return home or the decision of the father to forgive him upon his return even though he deserved to be stoned? Hopefully this question reveals the nature of 'sola gratia,' even in a system that doesn't deny human responsibility.

On the contrary, we teach what Scripture teaches.......that those who refuse Christ do so because "they will not have that man reign over them."

They 'will not' freely and voluntarily.

Please cite one Bible verse in which a man who has rejected Christ pleads that he really wanted to be a disciple of Christ but God's eternal decree forbade it.

If you cannot cite one supporting verse, then the underlying principles of your system are false and should be openly repudiated by you.

There are a ton of verses which imply human responsibility and we are debating as to how we interpret and apply those.

Are you a 'compatibilist?'

 

[Skandelon]

Your interpretation of this passage has been so thoroughly proven to be wrong that even Skandelon conceded that "all" referred to all without distinction rather than all without exception.

And all people of all nationalities without distinction is a far cry from "a select few from each nationality," as some want it to read.