Why bother?

[Van]

Perhaps, do a word study on test/tempt and consider how the verses might apply to you requesting God to bring the gospel to some for salvation. Just saying

 

[Skandelon]

Where is the pleading? Where is the persuasion?

"From morning till evening he explained and declared to them the kingdom of God and tried to convince them about Jesus from the Law of Moses and from the Prophets." -Acts 28

"Since, then, we know what it is to fear the Lord, we try to persuade men. What we are is plain to God, and I hope it is also plain to your conscience." - 2 Cor 5

"Every Sabbath he reasoned in the synagogue, trying to persuade Jews and Greeks." - Acts 18

"So he reasoned in the synagogue with the Jews and the God-fearing Greeks, as well as in the marketplace day by day with those who happened to be there." - Acts 17​

Is that enough? I'd say his use of the 'unknown god' was quite creative and relatable, wouldn't you?

There were some that believed and followed, but you don't see Paul jumping through hoops to plead and beg.

He was there pleading his case 'day after day' to whoever would listen.

I'll let Paul tell you himself, though I wonder if you accept it even from him:

Then Agrippa said to Paul, "You have permission to speak for yourself." So Paul motioned with his hand and began his defense: 2 "King Agrippa, I consider myself fortunate to stand before you today as I make my defense against all the accusations of the Jews, 3 and especially so because you are well acquainted with all the Jewish customs and controversies. Therefore, I beg you to listen to me patiently.

Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ; certain that God is appealing through us, we plead on Christ's behalf, "Be reconciled to God."​

He used the same TWO WORDS (beg and plead) just for you. :jesus:

 

[humblethinker]

Amen. God commanded us to, we are obedient and what a great blessing it is to be a tool that God uses to bring others to Himself!!

IMO, I think this is the most logical opinion and the best motivator for a Calvinist to evangelize. It seems that there is even more reason for obedience being by far the main (if not only?) motivator: comfort in the assurance of their own election

Surely as discussed here the evangelistic and obedient Calvinist would not be one of these:

Indeed, Calvin asserts that it cannot be denied that God "sends his Word to many whose blindness he intends to increase" (p. 980; Ex. 4:21; Eze. 4:21; Isa. 6:9-10). How dreadfully solemn are these words:
Observe that he directs his voice to them but in order that they might become even more deaf; he kindles a light but that they may be made more blind; he sets forth a doctrine but that they may grow even more stupid; He employs a remedy but so that they may not be healed (p. 980).
​

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

IMO, I think this is the most logical opinion and the best motivator for a Calvinist to evangelize. It seems that there is even more reason for obedience being by far the main (if not only?) motivator: comfort in the assurance of their own election

..... Rather, she is saying "Obedience" to our Lord & Savior. The motivation is love ....Love for God & love that wants humans to be saved. :jesus:

 

[Aaron]

Here's a plea:

Puh-leeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeze! I still point to Mars Hill. There is no pleading or begging or jumping through hoops trying to persuade those with no ears to hear.

No time to go into depth. Will do so later, however.

 

[Aaron]

IMO, I think this is the most logical opinion and the best motivator for a Calvinist to evangelize. It seems that there is even more reason for obedience being by far the main (if not only?) motivator: comfort in the assurance of their own election

Surely as discussed here the evangelistic and obedient Calvinist would not be one of these:

Indeed, Calvin asserts that it cannot be denied that God "sends his Word to many whose blindness he intends to increase" (p. 980; Ex. 4:21; Eze. 4:21; Isa. 6:9-10). How dreadfully solemn are these words:
Observe that he directs his voice to them but in order that they might become even more deaf; he kindles a light but that they may be made more blind; he sets forth a doctrine but that they may grow even more stupid; He employs a remedy but so that they may not be healed (p. 980).
​

We do what we see our Father in Heaven doing.

 

[percho]

"From morning till evening he explained and declared to them the kingdom of God and tried to convince them about Jesus from the Law of Moses and from the Prophets." -Acts 28

"Since, then, we know what it is to fear the Lord, we try to persuade men. What we are is plain to God, and I hope it is also plain to your conscience." - 2 Cor 5

"Every Sabbath he reasoned in the synagogue, trying to persuade Jews and Greeks." - Acts 18

"So he reasoned in the synagogue with the Jews and the God-fearing Greeks, as well as in the marketplace day by day with those who happened to be there." - Acts 17​

Is that enough? I'd say his use of the 'unknown god' was quite creative and relatable, wouldn't you?


He was there pleading his case 'day after day' to whoever would listen.

I'll let Paul tell you himself, though I wonder if you accept it even from him:

Then Agrippa said to Paul, "You have permission to speak for yourself." So Paul motioned with his hand and began his defense: 2 "King Agrippa, I consider myself fortunate to stand before you today as I make my defense against all the accusations of the Jews, 3 and especially so because you are well acquainted with all the Jewish customs and controversies. Therefore, I beg you to listen to me patiently.

Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ; certain that God is appealing through us, we plead on Christ's behalf, "Be reconciled to God."​

He used the same TWO WORDS (beg and plead) just for you. :jesus:

Mark 1:14,15 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel. 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

Matt. 24:3,14 Tell us, when shall these things be? and what [shall be] the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world (age)? And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Paul? Acts 20:25 And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more.

Now can anyone and anyone as we are inherit/enter the kingdom of God?

1 Cor 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Why was there something, that when Paul was preaching the kingdom of God, he put emphasis upon? What is so important about what Paul always put emphasis upon? Such as at; Acts 17:1-3.5 Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where was a synagogue of the Jews: And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures, Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; Or. 1 Cor,15:1-4 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

Paul preached the gospel of the kingdom of God for a witness with emphasis on the resurrection of Jesus the Christ because that is how one will enter/inherit the kingdom of God. Jesus said this about that. John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Jesus, the firstborn from the dead. Jesus and those chosen by God at the appearing of Jesus. Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Whether you be Cal. or Arm. let me ask. Just as you had not part in being born of your mother and father, how can one possibly believe he could have anything to do with his birth from above?

Does he choose to be born or is he chosen by God to be born?

Is the gospel preached as a witness that this is what God is going to do.

But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry; Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did [it] ignorantly in unbelief.

 

[MorseOp]

Or does the logic of your system lead there?

But as long as he doesn't water down or neglect the gospel why would he seek in any way to be interesting? Wouldn't that only undermine the Calvinistic premise? That is my question here.

Why should any preacher want to be interesting? It's not about the preacher, it's about the Gospel. Christ was the first to give us this example:

Philippians 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

Paul understood that it was the message, not the messenger:

1 Cor. 2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

How many preachers today (Osteen, Dollar, Copeland et. al) are interesting but bankrupt when it comes to the Gospel?

Now, if by "interesting" you mean accomplished in the art of preaching, well, I've already addressed that. But since you probably skipped what I previously wrote let me state it again. The Calvinist preacher has been entrusted with the words of Life - the Gospel. Jesus Christ represents the best God the Father had to give. How can a faithful minister of the Gospel lack conviction and passion when proclaiming the Word? The Calvinist preacher is also more than just a herald of the Gospel. He is also to feed the sheep with the whole counsel of God. An effective communicator is certainly not a distraction. But in the end it is the Gospel that announces forgiveness of sins and eternal life. Why are you compelled to question motives?

But what does "proclaim it well" mean in a system where persuasiveness, interest, and appeal have no effect? Any level of emotive appeal, interest, excitement, persuasive intent would appear to undermine the premise that only a supernatural predetermined work of the Holy Spirit will change their hearts.

I used the word "well" as a synonym for accurate. The Gospel is to be delivered accurately as the the word of God reveals it.

Emotions in preaching can only serve to undermine the Gospel if the gospel being preached is no gospel at all. You subscribe to the Finneyistic model, where the Gospel is not sufficient for salvation. You need proof?

"We believe the gospel is an APPEAL to be reconciled, so to make it as APPEALING as possible is consistent with what we believe it is intended to do."

So, unless you make it "appealing" (whatever that means) it is lacking something. You place the responsibility on the preacher, not the Gospel itself.

In fact, in your system, the more boring and uninteresting the preacher is the more obvious that God worked if someone where to come to faith, right?

You know better than to suggest such nonsense. You're being obtuse.

How so? We believe the gospel is an APPEAL to be reconciled, so to make it as APPEALING as possible is consistent with what we believe it is intended to do. The gospel enables an enemy of God to respond and be reconciled in our system, but in your system it only informs the pre-reconciled of their reconciliation...you don't appear to leave any room for an appeal.

You need to understand the Gospel.

That is my point. So, it only reasons to suggest that you leave the passion/excitement/appeal out so as not to take away any glory from the effectual working of regeneration done by the Holy Spirit. Your preaching classes should be much different than ours.

Quite, and blessedly so.

 

[humblethinker]

..... Rather, she is saying "Obedience" to our Lord & Savior. The motivation is love ....Love for God & love that wants humans to be saved. :jesus:

Is your love a selective, preferential love as some say God's love is?

 

[convicted1]

Can we change that to a pork roast.....I dont like lamb!

Seriously though, our faith has nothing to do with our eternal destiny but everything to do with the benefits to be had from obedience to the gospel here, now, in this realm.

God Himself has settled all eternal aspects of our salvation. It's up to us to believe that, rest in it, trust Him, adhere to Him, rely on Him, love Him, love our neighbor, and enjoy the table He has set before us. Thats what I believe anyway.

Very good post Brother!!! :thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

[Skandelon]

So, unless you make it "appealing" (whatever that means) it is lacking something. You place the responsibility on the preacher, not the Gospel itself.

You act as if you think the gospel has some sort of power, when in your system the power is in the work of regeneration, not in the gospel. The appeal is the gospel, which should be presented as an appeal, not just information given to someone who has already been regenerated.

You're being obtuse...You need to understand the Gospel.

You are avoiding the argument with such personal attacks. There really isn't any need for that.

 

[MorseOp]

You act as if you think the gospel has some sort of power, when in your system the power is in the work of regeneration, not in the gospel. The appeal is the gospel, which should be presented as an appeal, not just information given to someone who has already been regenerated.

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. (KJV)

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.(NASB)

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile. (NIV)

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

No, Skan, not the ink on the page (or the bytes on a Kindle as the case may be), but the expressed word itself. The Gospel is God's message to sinners. The salvific work of the Spirit is at work in those whom the Father calls (c.f. Heb. 4:12, "living and active").

You are avoiding the argument with such personal attacks. There really isn't any need for that.

I am describing your behavior. This thread was not an honest attempt at finding out what Calvinists believe. You already have an opinion of what that is. This thread was about trying to draw Calvinists in to your playpen and criticize their approach to preaching the Gospel. It is not personal with me. It is a matter of the truth.

 

[Skandelon]

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. (KJV)

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.(NASB)

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile. (NIV)

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

No, Skan, not the ink on the page (or the bytes on a Kindle as the case may be), but the expressed word itself. The Gospel is God's message to sinners. The salvific work of the Spirit is at work in those whom the Father calls (c.f. Heb. 4:12, "living and active").

Do you think I disagree with this? This is MY argument. Your system is the one who that teaches the gospel is powerless absent a secondary effectual work of grace (regeneration). The 'expressed word itself' is powerless in your system lest the man is first regenerated. In my system, the power is in the words, not in some extra effectual working for a relative few number of people.

Calvinism:
Regeneration = power

Non-Calvinism:
Gospel = power

I am describing your behavior.

I'm expressing my views (which is the purpose of the forum), and I'm doing so in a cordial manner. You are making it personal, which is unnecessary.

This thread was not an honest attempt at finding out what Calvinists believe.

Actually, I expressed very clearly in the OP that I was very familiar with the various answers to the question being posed, but that I'd like to 'unpack' it and discuss it more fully. That is called 'debate,' which again is the expressed purpose of this forum. You don't need to make it personal.

It is not personal with me. It is a matter of the truth.

Then discuss truth and stop making personal comments. It is really that simple. If you can't do that then I'll simply refrain from further discussion.

 

[MorseOp]

Do you think I disagree with this? This is MY argument. Your system is the one who that teaches the gospel is powerless absent a secondary effectual work of grace (regeneration). The 'expressed word itself' is powerless in your system lest the man is first regenerated. In my system, the power is in the words, not in some extra effectual working for a relative few number of people.

Calvinism:
Regeneration = power

Non-Calvinism:
Gospel = power

There is not one Calvinist preacher that I know who does not believe that the Gospel is the message of salvation to sinners. Sure. We believe the regeneration is the work of the Holy Spirit that illumines the mind of the individual to their sin and enables them to believe. But believe what? The Gospel. You simply do not understand the doctrines of grace. It's either that or you callously choose to misrepresent it.

I'm expressing my views (which is the purpose of the forum), and I'm doing so in a cordial manner. You are making it personal, which is unnecessary.

Please stop being the martyr. It is embarrassing. This is not personal. I am simply being blunt in opposing your misrepresentations. You need to develop some thick skin and stop being so sensitive.

If you can't do that then I'll simply refrain from further discussion.

Well, you have the "free will" to chose not to discuss.

 

[WITBOTL]

Calvinism:
Regeneration = power

Non-Calvinism:
Gospel = power

you are comparing apples and oranges Skandelon. You are suggesting that we give regeneration power while you give the gospel power. The problem is we both see regeneration as the result of the power we are talking about. Regeneration is not the power, the Holy Spirit is the power spoken of. Where is the power in the gospel?

Eph. 6:17 and the sword of the Spirit which is the word of God.

There is your power of the gospel right there. Without the Spirit wielding the sword, where is its power?

and there is the doctrines of Grace

 

[Sevenzedek]

Allow me to pose a question to our Calvinistic brethren:

If God has preselected a particular number of people to effectually regenerate, and he will most certainly regenerate them despite what anyone else chooses to do; then why bother with all the efforts of reaching the lost with the gospel?​

I know this is an age old question that has many notable answers, but I'd like to unpack it here (cordially if possible). I understand that Calvinists argue that God ordains not only the ends but the means, but I'd like to better understand how that addresses this particular issue of potential apathy. If one sincerely believes the ends and the means are predetermined, how does that influence his deliberation process when making the decision as to whether or not to reach out to others...especially when it would be particularly difficult to do so?

{Now, please don't take this question as a charge against my Calvinistic brothers. My older brother is a missionary in an very difficult unreached people group area and he is Calvinistic. And I can list, along with many of you, many Reformed believers who are very missional and evangelistic. I'm not questioning that fact. I'm merely questioning the logic and potential effect of this belief when making such deliberations.}

I agree that the risk you present is a valid one. However, the logic you use can be applied to being saved apart from works. As Paul said, Shall we sin so that grace may abound? God forbid! If "Calvinists" are apathetic, the problem is with the "Calvinists;" not the doctrine.

 

[percho]

The gospel.

Is the good news, how God through the death and resurrection of his Son is reconciling the world unto himself?

Or

Is the good news, how you can be sure you are saved by something you do?

Is God saving, or is it our response to something God did that saves?

And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth. Give us day by day our daily bread. And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.

Was this a prayer for a year or so until the kingdom came?

What is the purpose for the kingdom to come and what is the purpose, relative to that kingdom, for the people God is taking from among the nations for his name?

 

[percho]

Very good post Brother!!! :thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

Amen to your amen.........

 

[psalms109:31]

God is out to destroy the world and the wickedness. The only refuge from this destruction is Christ we are to remain in Him our only hope and encourage others to do the same. To make a plea as Skandelon is saying. If you have done what you can and they still remain where they are and have misunderstood the appeal of God through us and follow their own will then they headed to their own destruction. We all have unstable minds we can't trust it. We are at war within ourselves who can save me from this body of death praise be to Jesus. If they continue down the path to their own destruction after the appeal then God will give them over to their own evil desires.

The desire and will of God is that all men be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth, the wicked to repent and live those who don't are following their own will, their own evil desire.

God will destroy the world and all who are not in Christ so be it, I am at peace with that, which should give us more reason to make an appeal to all men to take refuge in Christ their only salvation.

2 Peter 3:14 So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him. 15 Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.


17 Therefore, dear friends, since you have been forewarned, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure position. 18 But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen.

Ezekiel 3 :
18 When I say to a wicked person, ‘You will surely die,’ and you do not warn them or speak out to dissuade them from their evil ways in order to save their life, that wicked person will die for[Or in; also in verses 19 and 20] their sin, and I will hold you accountable for their blood. 19 But if you do warn the wicked person and they do not turn from their wickedness or from their evil ways, they will die for their sin; but you will have saved yourself.

20 “Again, when a righteous person turns from their righteousness and does evil, and I put a stumbling block before them, they will die. Since you did not warn them, they will die for their sin. The righteous things that person did will not be remembered, and I will hold you accountable for their blood. 21 But if you do warn the righteous person not to sin and they do not sin, they will surely live because they took warning, and you will have saved yourself.”

James 5 :
19 My brothers and sisters, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring that person back, 20 remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins.

 

[Aaron]

"From morning till evening he explained and declared to them the kingdom of God and tried to convince them about Jesus from the Law of Moses and from the Prophets." -Acts 28
​

"Since, then, we know what it is to fear the Lord, we try to persuade men. What we are is plain to God, and I hope it is also plain to your conscience." - 2 Cor 5

"Every Sabbath he reasoned in the synagogue, trying to persuade Jews and Greeks." - Acts 18

"So he reasoned in the synagogue with the Jews and the God-fearing Greeks, as well as in the marketplace day by day with those who happened to be there." - Acts 17
​

Is that enough? I'd say his use of the 'unknown god' was quite creative and relatable, wouldn't you?


He was there pleading his case 'day after day' to whoever would listen.

I'll let Paul tell you himself, though I wonder if you accept it even from him:

Then Agrippa said to Paul, "You have permission to speak for yourself." So Paul motioned with his hand and began his defense: 2 "King Agrippa, I consider myself fortunate to stand before you today as I make my defense against all the accusations of the Jews, 3 and especially so because you are well acquainted with all the Jewish customs and controversies. Therefore, I beg you to listen to me patiently.

Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ; certain that God is appealing through us, we plead on Christ's behalf, "Be reconciled to God."
​

He used the same TWO WORDS (beg and plead) just for you. :jesus:

I asked you to point to the pleading and persuasion in the address at Mars Hill. It's there, but not in the nature of which you're expecting, because it's not for your reasons. So, you point to others accounts where certain words are used, thinking somehow that they describe something more passionate that what occurred on Mars Hill.

Be honest, you thought his address dry and his manner boring.

But back to your question, why bother? It's not for your reasons. We are commanded to do so, yes, but we love to do so. We love God, we love His Word, we love the Gospel, and we love men.

You need to understand the motivation of love.