Why bother?

[Earth Wind and Fire]

When you place yourself in the position of a teacher (which Skandelon has done), and your words have the potential of negatively influencing others, you should be confronted. When you constantly regurgitate the same arguments over and over that is being obtuse. If I lose my temper you may rightly label me as angry. If I smile at good news you would probably call me happy. Those are not personal attacks or praises, they simply explain that person's present state. I did not call Skandelon an idiot or a moron. I labeled his behavior.

Also, this is not a church. If it was then this type of dialog would not be taking place. More than likely it would be in private where I can attempt to reason with the individual. But in here? It just doesn't work that way. This thread was started in order to bait Calvinists. I am totally convinced of that. Personally that does not bother me. I am more concerned with the lurkers. No one who participates in these threads is likely to change their minds. I do not see Van or Winman becoming Calvinists any time soon, nor do I see Iconoclast or myself embracing Arminianism.

AMEN BROTHER:applause:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I think I see your point. Even though I see that all things are predetermined according to the bible, determinism is not what I would call biblical. The fact that God knows all things beforehand means that all things are predetermined. Determinism would place the onus of our God-given responsibility on God.

You would agree that we are to fulfill our responsibility to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. Would you also agree with the scriptures that say that it is also God who works in us the willing and doing of our responsibility? You would also agree that we responsible for obeying God. Would you also agree with the scriptures that say that it is God who makes us willing in his day of power? You would agree that it is our responsibility to come to Christ. Would you also agree with the scriptures that say that no one can come to Christ unless the Father who sent him draws us? You would agree that it was the Pharisee's responsibility to believe in Christ. But would you also agree with the scriptures that say that the reason why they didn't was precisely because they were not his sheep?

This is what the scriptures state. But, if I wait for God to do what I am commanded to do, then the problem is not with the doctrine in the scriptures. The problem is with me because I have not obeyed.

Apart from Christ, I can do nothing. Therefore, I am responsible to do what I cannot do on my own.

Why bother? Because I am commanded to by God.

So your trying to explain what...."PARADOX"?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Not at all!

Cals affirm the full effect of the fall, as man is born spiritually dead in sin natures, and cannot save himself apart from the work of God on His behalf thru the Cross of Christ!

Much of modern non cal though more akin to catholic thought, as they see ourselves able to co assist God in the salvation process, by choosing to come to Christ by own violation!

Surprised they did NOT jump all over you on that one! Is there truth to it? They dont walk the sacrament / works justification. I dont know any non-calvinist baptist that goes to Mass & tells his or her sins to a priest.

 

[psalms109:31]

As I would John 10:26,27

The choice is God's and God's timing, see Paul.


What are the odds the Pharisee Saul was one of those saying, crucify him?

God will change a goat like Saul and bring him back into His flock, then there is hope for anyone at their crossroad to Damascus. Saul is the one who was cut out for unbelief and now is included back in because he did not continue in his unbelief. Saul is the message of hope for anyone even a goat leading men to destruction

 

[Van]

I do not see Van or Winman becoming Calvinists any time soon....

No I present the truth of scripture to anyone willing to explore biblical truth. I have presented specific scriptures showing Arminianism is a mistaken view of scripture and I have presented specific scriptures showing Calvinism is a mistaken view of scripture. But rather than anyone actually engaging, I get dismissive remarks to the effect my mind is closed, from Calvinists.

I believe the lost can be saved, Calvinism teaches if a person was not chosen individually for salvation before creation, they are damned and nothing anyone does will alter that outcome.

Whosoever believes becomes whosoever was chosen and given the compulsion to believe shall not perish. Total rewrite to put man's doctrine over God's grace.

 

[Yeshua1]

Surprised they did NOT jump all over you on that one! Is there truth to it? They dont walk the sacrament / works justification. I dont know any non-calvinist baptist that goes to Mass & tells his or her sins to a priest.

get behind/past the sacraments, and lookm at the fact BOTH groupps see man has able to freely assist in the salvation process, as we will be the deciding factor on getting saved!

 

[Yeshua1]

No I present the truth of scripture to anyone willing to explore biblical truth. I have presented specific scriptures showing Arminianism is a mistaken view of scripture and I have presented specific scriptures showing Calvinism is a mistaken view of scripture. But rather than anyone actually engaging, I get dismissive remarks to the effect my mind is closed, from Calvinists.

I believe the lost can be saved, Calvinism teaches if a person was not chosen individually for salvation before creation, they are damned and nothing anyone does will alter that outcome.

Whosoever believes becomes whosoever was chosen and given the compulsion to believe shall not perish. Total rewrite to put man's doctrine over God's grace.

Do you believe that a Sinner can freely decide to come to jesus and get saved than?

 

[MorseOp]

BOTH groupps see man has able to freely assist in the salvation process, as we will be the deciding factor on getting saved!

Both groups? Surely you are not referring to Calvinists as being one of those groups.

 

[Van]

Both groups? Surely you are not referring to Calvinists as being one of those groups.

Gee Whiz, someone actually noticed Yeshua1 simply posts mistaken views serially?

 

[Van]

Pitchback

Do you believe that a Sinner can freely decide to come to jesus and get saved than?

Could the first soil of Matthew 13 come to Jesus? Nope. Rather than asking me what I believe, why not study what God has taught in scripture. Does scripture actually say no one seeks God at any time unless regenerated? If not then you can see that the doctrine is man-made! Then you can read about the other three soils of Matthew 13 that did seek God and trust in Jesus. So the T of Calvinism is an obvious total fiction. But wait, they say, no one seeks God effectively. Yet another fiction. Was the fourth soil regenerated? Calvinism will claim yes, but note such regeneration is not mentioned, it is just added by Calvinism. If you can add to scripture, rewrite verses and redefine words that scripture can be nullified by the clever stories of men.

 

[Skandelon]

When Scandal speaks of the "power of the Gospel," he is speaking of something completely different than that of which we speak. He thinks the mere utterance of the words to have some kind of magic effect like an incantation in a Harry Potter story.

No, I believe as Jesus said, "the VERY WORDS that I speak to you are spirit and life..." (john 6)

Aaron, TRUTH is powerful! Someone might even say, oh I don't know, 'the truth will set you free'....naw, sounds like Harry potter.

In his view, simply being within earshot of a preacher imparts faith.

When Aaron speaks of 'a preacher' he doesn't think of them as Holy Spirit indwelled messengers of the inspired gospel, proclaiming the very words of God, speaking God's life-giving truth, the powerful appeal for reconciliation, the double edged sword of the spirit, NO, what Aaron believes is that when a preacher talks its not really a work of God at all, but just some everyday dude talking about neat stuff. And that stuff becomes relevant for a preselected few people only after God changes them irresistibly.

 

[Skandelon]

The fact that God knows all things beforehand means that all things are predetermined.

Predetermined by whom? You said God foreknew all things, so how does that translate into God predetermines all things? Isn't there a distinction between foreknowing and predetermining?

You would agree that we are to fulfill our responsibility to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. Would you also agree with the scriptures that say that it is also God who works in us the willing and doing of our responsibility?

Sure. But historically God is not known to 'work in us' by some irresistible force that controls our desires and thus our decisions. When he wants to influence or provoke our wills he uses 'normative' means. He used signs and wonders. He used envy to provoke the Jews. He uses persuasion and appeals brought by human messengers. He sends warning and rebukes...rewards and punishments. At times when he wants to ensure obedience, as in times when he wants to make sure a message is delivered, he used means such a blinding lights and big fish. Could God have simply snapped his finger and made Jonah want to preach to Nineveh? Of course he could, but that is not how He chooses to work. Yet, Calvinists want us to believe that's virtually what he does with everyone who decides to follow Christ. That God 'snaps' (irresistibly awakens them by a inward secret work of regeneration) supernaturally changing their desires and effectually making the choice for them. It makes little sense to me to suggest that God went to all the trouble to use a storm, a big fish and all those means of convincing the messenger to go, only to 'snap his fingers' and make the messenger's audience choose to accept his message.

So, while I would gladly admit that God uses means to assist, influence and appeal to our wills, I will not conclude that He, in essence, makes that decision for us. Without Him and the means of the gospel, His revelation, His Spirit bringing conviction, our wills would have NO HOPE, but with all those means our wills have NO EXCUSES!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Both groups? Surely you are not referring to Calvinists as being one of those groups.

It is difficult at times to untangle Yeshua's commentaries

Here is what he said:

Much of modern non cal though more akin to catholic thought

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

It is difficult at times to untangle Yeshua's commentaries

Here is what he said:

Much of modern non cal though more akin to catholic thought

Now there is an interesting potential topic for you Yoshie...compare & contrast the differences between Catholics & Non Calvies! Bet it will get tons of action from RC & Non Calvies alike. :smilewinkgrin:

 

[Yeshua1]

Now there is an interesting potential topic for you Yoshie...compare & contrast the differences between Catholics & Non Calvies! Bet it will get tons of action from RC & Non Calvies alike. :smilewinkgrin:

Bottom line is that for BOTH groups, the basis of getting saved by God is to assist Him, as the catholics see God giving them Sacramental graces, while Non cals see it in the Gospel itself as giving "Graces" to allow them to freely deicde for Christ!

 

[Yeshua1]

No, I believe as Jesus said, "the VERY WORDS that I speak to you are spirit and life..." (john 6)

Aaron, TRUTH is powerful! Someone might even say, oh I don't know, 'the truth will set you free'....naw, sounds like Harry potter.

When Aaron speaks of 'a preacher' he doesn't think of them as Holy Spirit indwelled messengers of the inspired gospel, proclaiming the very words of God, speaking God's life-giving truth, the powerful appeal for reconciliation, the double edged sword of the spirit, NO, what Aaron believes is that when a preacher talks its not really a work of God at all, but just some everyday dude talking about neat stuff. And that stuff becomes relevant for a preselected few people only after God changes them irresistibly.

Unless the lord [repares beforehand the soil to receive and hear the Gospel, it falls upon 'deaf ears"....

 

[psalms109:31]

Unless the lord [repares beforehand the soil to receive and hear the Gospel, it falls upon 'deaf ears"....

The soil is ruined by us cursed by us for the innocent blood we shed. God gave the few the tools to work the ground His word and the Holy Spirit. It is our curse to work the ground not God and God as man started it off. We work in the field and God causes it to grow. The only one's who believe man has no role in salvation of man is Hyper-Calvinist. The soil is so horrible right now and so rocky. The farmer who sits and does nothing has no crop and God is making His appeal through us. A good shepherd uses His sheep to heard in the lost.

 

[MorseOp]

Well, this falseaversy has been been put to rest.

 

[Aaron]

No, I believe as Jesus said, "the VERY WORDS that I speak to you are spirit and life..." (john 6)

Aaron, TRUTH is powerful! Someone might even say, oh I don't know, 'the truth will set you free'....naw, sounds like Harry potter.

When Aaron speaks of 'a preacher' he doesn't think of them as Holy Spirit indwelled messengers of the inspired gospel, proclaiming the very words of God, speaking God's life-giving truth, the powerful appeal for reconciliation, the double edged sword of the spirit, NO, what Aaron believes is that when a preacher talks its not really a work of God at all, but just some everyday dude talking about neat stuff. And that stuff becomes relevant for a preselected few people only after God changes them irresistibly.

Thanks for proving my point. :thumbs:

 

[Skandelon]

Thanks for proving my point. :thumbs:

What point would that be? The one where I quoted Jesus or the one where I quote Paul, or both?

And who did you quote exactly? Oh, yeah, yourself.... hmmm...telling...