Why bother?

[Earth Wind and Fire]

What point would that be? The one where I quoted Jesus or the one where I quote Paul, or both?

And who did you quote exactly? Oh, yeah, yourself.... hmmm...telling...

Skandelon....what in the heck? Are you being serious about commentary at this level? Come on...you can post better.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Bottom line is that for BOTH groups, the basis of getting saved by God is to assist Him, as the catholics see God giving them Sacramental graces, while Non cals see it in the Gospel itself as giving "Graces" to allow them to freely decide for Christ!

You know Yeshua, you might be onto something...and something buried in the recesses of my subconscious mind. For 32 years as a RC, I did not get it ....I could not link up with their atonement, their justification through works & all the other endless traditions that these Papists tried to palm off as true religion so then when I get saved & go to a General Baptist Church, they try hard to sell me a theology where its still me & God; co-parters in my salvation. Only I wasn't truly saved that way....God through the Holy spirit called me out & convicted me of my sin....made me to be embarrassed & ashamed. Then I realized that it wasn't me who wised me up....because I would have gone blithely on my merry way & continuing to sin my rear end off. That was just one of the many things I realized, albeit my own personal salvation story. God had saved me, on His own & by His enormous mercy. What a wonderful gift to give to save a wretch like me. I once was lost, but now Im found.....blind but now I see. Couldn't resist! :laugh:

 

[Skandelon]

Skandelon....what in the heck? Are you being serious about commentary at this level? Come on...you can post better.

You are right...sometimes I allow others to bring me to their level of debate. What I should have said was:

"I made an actual argument using quotes from scripture as support, while you provided nothing but conjecture and misrepresentations of my view. Now, would you like to explain why you believe the gospel (yes, the very words of Christ), are powerless?"​

 

[Aaron]

What point would that be? The one where I quoted Jesus or the one where I quote Paul, or both?

And who did you quote exactly? Oh, yeah, yourself.... hmmm...telling...

The point of post #81. Again, thanks! :thumbs:

 

[Skandelon]

And Aaron, you are proving my point that you refuse to engage in an actual debate. I presented my case for why the very 'utterances' (words) of the gospel TRUTH, inspired by God Himself, are powerful and effective. I quote numerous passages which say EXACTLY what I believe about the power of the gospel...and I mean VERBATIM. I don't even need to change the sentences from the text, I believe 'the very words of Christ are spirit and life...' I believe we will be 'judged by the very words of Christ...' I believe 'the truth will set you free.'

What do you believe? That Harry Potter agrees with Jesus, Paul and me? I don't know, because you won't make an actual argument. And you have yet to provide one shred of support for your belief that the proclaimed words of truth have NO power...I won't be holding my breath.

 

[Aaron]

Though I speak with the tongues of men and angels, and have not love, I am become as sounding brass.

Utterances are nothing. You can stand on the street corner quoting John 3:16 all day long, if one was not given ears to hear what the Spirit says, he is unaffected.

You can fluff your pillow of superstition all you want with misappropriated words and phrases from the Scriptures. It doesn't change the fact that the Scriptures do not describe what you are describing. You might was well conclude that drinking a preacher's urine imparts faith, afterall rivers of living water flow from their bellies.

 

[Cypress]

Though I speak with the tongues of men and angels, and have not love, I am become as sounding brass.

Utterances are nothing. You can stand on the street corner quoting John 3:16 all day long, if one was not given ears to hear what the Spirit says, he is unaffected.

You can fluff your pillow of superstition all you want with misappropriated words and phrases from the Scriptures. It doesn't change the fact that the Scriptures do not describe what you are describing. You might was well conclude that drinking a preacher's urine imparts faith, afterall rivers of living water flow from their bellies.

Here's an utterance for you....You are disgusting. Grow up or shut up.

 

[Skandelon]

Though I speak with the tongues of men and angels, and have not love, I am become as sounding brass.

So, you agree that the words spoken in love have power? So, if "Harry Potter" has love, then his "incantations" work? What is your point? How does this address our point of contention.

Utterances are nothing. You can stand on the street corner quoting John 3:16 all day long, if one was not given ears to hear what the Spirit says, he is unaffected.

Yet, the verse you quoted speaks of the motive of love from the messenger...it says nothing of the ears of those passing by, so again I'm not following your argument.

You can fluff your pillow of superstition all you want with misappropriated words and phrases from the Scriptures. It doesn't change the fact that the Scriptures do not describe what you are describing.

Interesting that the verses say EXACTLY what I believe. "the VERY WORDS of Christ are spirit and life." Aaron, THE VERY WORDS!

And the words not only have the enabling power to bring salvation, they also have the power to bring judgement:

"As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it. There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day." - Jesus

The VERY WORD which he SPOKE. That is the PROCLAIMED GOSPEL, Aaron. You have heard it from Paul, you've heard it from Peter, and you've heard it from Jesus Himself, but you reject it. Even Luke (in our last discussion) conceded this point. There are way too many passages to refute for you not to follow suit.

You might was well conclude that drinking a preacher's urine imparts faith, afterall rivers of living water flow from their bellies.

Disgustingly revealing...

 

[Skandelon]

I have a few more passages to add as support, though I don't expect you to actually address them, as that is your MO:

Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. (John 14:10)​

Notice that the words he says are equated with God 'doing his work.'

He was in the assembly in the desert, with the angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our fathers; and he received living words to pass on to us. Acts 7:38
​

What are 'living words' in your system, Aaron? Are they Harry Potter incantations?

For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God. (1 Peter 1:23)


For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. Hebrews 4:12

And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15 And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!" 16 But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our message?" 17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ. Rom 10​

 

[Aaron]

So, you agree that the words spoken in love have power?

Are you really this dense, or are you simply grasping at straws?

Interesting that the verses say EXACTLY what I believe. "the VERY WORDS of Christ are spirit and life." Aaron, THE VERY WORDS!

Let's see exactly what Christ said:

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. But there are some of you that believe not. (For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.) And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
​

The Gospel is the power of God, unto them that believe. To them that don't, it's foolishness.

Talk all you want to him unto whom it is NOT given to come unto Christ. The VERY WORDS just go in one ear, and out the other and leaves the hearer unchanged.

Disgustingly revealing...

It is disgusting. There is a sect that believes just that. They are your kin.

 

[Skandelon]

Are you really this dense, or are you simply grasping at straws?

You quoted a verse which says, "I speak with the tongues of men and angels, and have not love, I am become as sounding brass," which clearly means that one's motive when speaking matters, which has nothing to do with the subject being discussed.

Let's see exactly what Christ said:

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. But there are some of you that believe not. (For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.) And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Right, because Israel (except a remnant) were being judicially hardened by God. (See John 12:39-41, Acts 28:21-28, Romans 10-11; etc.) So, no one could believe that which hasn't been given them and the truth hasn't been sent to all the world YET. It is ONLY after Christ is lifted up that he sends this remnant of Israel to all creatures to draw all men to himself (John 12:32).

You did not provide any explaination as to what Christ meant when he said, "the VERY WORDS I speak to you are spirit and life..."

The Gospel is the power of God, unto them that believe. To them that don't, it's foolishness.

Why is it foolish to them? Is it because...

(1) God punished them for Adam's sin by making them all born sealed into thinking that any truth sent from God to the world is foolish?

OR

(2) They freely refused to accept the truth so as to be saved?

Your view blames their rejection on God (whether you admit that fact or not), my view leaves the blame on mankind.

It is disgusting. There is a sect that believes just that. They are your kin.

:tear: Wow... You are revealing your true nature here Aaron. Please don't act in the flesh.

 

[Aaron]

Oh puh-leeze! Will you man up and just deal with the topic?

Your reduction of the Gospel to hocus pocus is akin to this sect's take on "rivers of living water."

That's the long and the short of it. See ya!:type:

 

[Skandelon]

Aaron,

I'm the only one of us who IS dealing with the actual topic. You think referring to the actual words of Jesus as being spirit and life is akin to 'hocus pocus' and 'drinking a preachers urine.'

Yet, you have not once provided an alternative interpretation for the many texts I've presented in support of my perspective. I've answer the one verse you sited, which had nothing to do with the subject being discussed, but you will not even attempt to answer the many passages I've presented. Instead, you make disgusting and baseless guilt by association accusation by linking a well established orthodox view of scripture with Harry Potter and Urine drinkers??? Seriously? Aaron, I know we have had our differences but this is beyond ridiculous and absurd. You have so far crossed the line, even for you. I believe you really need to take a break bro...

Wow.

 

[Aaron]

For the sake of the lurker, Scandal and I have discussed this adnauseum in the past. So just a brief primer:

The preaching of the Gospel saves only those to whom it is given to come unto Christ. This is a particular work of grace by God the Father and the Spirit in the heart of an individual. In short, only those who are given "ears to hear what the Spirit saith" respond.

For Scandal, because the words are spiritual, then the mere utterances of the words do a work in everyone, but it isn't an irresistable work, so some would rather not have it. In short, they're irresistibly endowed with faith and some choose to resist it. He wrests the Scriptures from their contexts to support it.

There can be no reasoning (and better than I have tried) so I just say my peace and move on.

 

[Skandelon]

For the sake of the lurker, Scandal and I have discussed this adnauseum in the past. So just a brief primer:

The preaching of the Gospel saves only those to whom it is given to come unto Christ.

This is a particular work of grace by God the Father and the Spirit in the heart of an individual. In short, only those who are given "ears to hear what the Spirit saith" respond.

Aaron, most 'lurkers' already know the basic claims of your 5 points, which is really all you have just summarized above. But the purpose of this forum is to debate the various theological points of view. Debating involves forming arguments, providing support for those claims and responding to rebuttals in a REASONABLE, cordial, Christlike manner. Not equating a widely held Southern Baptist orthodox perspective with Harry Potter and Urine drinkers! It is absurd. You are acting very immaturely and doing a dishonor to your soteriological perspective and ultimately to Christ. No one is winning when you stoop to this level, especially the 'lurkers' you're addressing now.

For Scandal... In short, they're irresistibly endowed with faith

There you go again... putting words in my mouth that I've never said. People chose to respond in humility by trusting another, or in pride by trusting themselves. The Prodigal Son reached the pig sty and could have pridefully attempted to 'pull himself up by his bootstraps' and make the best of the life he had squandered. OR he could swallow his pride, tuck his tail between his legs, and in shame and humility beg his dad for a job as a slave (the latter choice by the world's standard is the weaker one). The fact that God chooses to grace his humility with full restoration as a Son has NOTHING to do with the merit or goodness of that rebellious brat. He deserved to be slapped and sent packing, but the father chose to credit his weak shameful, humble return with unmerited GRACE.

He wrests the Scriptures from their contexts to support it.

Yet, scriptures say EXACTLY (verbatim) what I believe whereas you have to provide caveats and explanations to get them to say what you need them to say. It says, 'THE VERY WORDS' ...you know, what you refer to as 'hocus pocus incantations?' Yet, your view teaches the the very words have no power except to inform those who have already been transformed. Your view has people being irresistibly reconciled in order to even respond to the appeal to be reconciled...now that is confounding the scriptures!

There can be no reasoning (and better than I have tried) so I just say my peace and move on.

Your peace? Your peace of what? You compare my view (which is supported by those commissioned to write our Baptist Faith and Message), with Harry Potter and Urine drinkers and you have the audacity to pretend as if you have offered some kind of 'reasoning' worthy of consideration? You think that is saying your peace and moving on? Amazing... You really need to edit your posts, apologize and MOVE ON...

 

[Blammo]

Note from a lurker:

I'm sure I don't speak for all lurkers, but there is no background or history required to see and understand the character of the people who post. It is usually quite clear who is who. (As I have mentioned on another thread)