Why Calvinism preaches a fraudulent gospel to some of the lost.

[AustinC]

We disagree on this. "The gift" is "saved." "By grace are ye saved . . . and that not of yourselves . . . " Those three sets of words, "saved," "that" and "the gift" are the subject.

Furthermore unless salvation includes the eternal life it isn't. 1 John 5:11-13.

Saved is the action of God in removing you from the bondage of sin and placing you in the Kingdom of God.
Grace (unmerited favor) is the reason God acted to save. Faith is the gift God gives upon saving us so that we stand before the Judge, justified in the gracious work of God alone.

 

[1689Dave]

Again, you are equating being “born again”, I.e. regeneration, with salvation. Salvation occurs, logically anyway, at some point after regeneration. Holy Spirit enables us to understand the gospel and come to Christ in faith.

At salvation, God Holy Spirit indwells us, and then testifies with our spirit that we are children of God.

You are very quick to declare someone has a “false faith” based on disagreements with your understanding of the salvation process.

peace to you

It's the beginning of the salvation experience. If you ever experience the new birth, it's self-explanatory. The Spirit bears witness with your spirit and causes you to believe in the Christ associated with that experience.

 

[Dave G]

Regardless of man’s response he still gets no credit because he has no authority to give it, design it, nor provide the legal justification. Since the needed response of man was designed and provided for by God alone what man does after that is irrelevant.

I think you're missing the point that I'm trying very hard to make, Mark, and to me you keep looking at it like some sort of a market deal.

God did not design a "needed response" into the Gospel...
God designed that the Gospel would be believed by His children.

Belief of the Gospel is an evidence of a person being one of His own elect, created in Christ Jesus...
"A vessel of mercy afore prepared unto glory."
It is not a pre-requisite to the Lord saving someone, it is post-"requisite" to Him doing so.

The Gospel is not the message of potential salvation to all men, it is the message of God's love towards His children and their deliverance from His wrath and to an eternal relationship with Him and His Son.
Their belief of it was given to them in the behalf of Christ ( Philippians 1:29 ).
Their faith through all their trials and tribulations in this life is a gift from Him ( and is a fruit of the Spirit, the mark of a true believer ) not something that we as men provide in order to gain His favor.

You genuinely do not understand this, do you?

 

[Dave G]

John 1:12-13 says the very thing I’m talking about contrary to the misinterpretation of my reformed brethren. Which , again, isn’t logical.

Which tells me that those that did receive Him and were given the power to become the sons of God, were not born of blood ( inheritance ), nor of the will of the flesh ( our own will ) nor of the will of man ( other people's will ), but of God.
The same principle is taught in James 1:18:

" Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures."

Again, we're going back to God's will as opposed to our own rebellious and hard-hearted will (which the Lord Himself says is dead-set against Him and His ways, even from birth), and being born again has nothing to do with our will.

"Reaching out and accepting the gift" does not lead to being born again, my friend...
Our being born again opens us to listening to God's words ( when before that we rejected them as foolishness ), which then prompts us to "reach out" in faith and believe the truth of them.

Acts 16:14 tells us part of this, and it is this truth that completely defies human logic.

People have been trying to figure out "how to get saved" for a very long time,
and the truth is that it is a miracle of God that a person comes to Christ in true faith and hope.

My friend, I'm sorry that I've not been able to persuade you of what I see in the Scriptures,
though I've tried very hard to do so in this thread and despite me saying in the past that I would not try again.
I'll do my best not to reply to you further on this.


May He bless you with His goodness in more ways than you can count.

 

[Revmitchell]

I think you're missing the point that I'm trying very hard to make, Mark, and to me you keep looking at it like some sort of a market deal.

God did not design a "needed response" into the Gospel...
God designed that the Gospel would be believed by His children.

Belief of the Gospel is an evidence of a person being one of His own elect, created in Christ Jesus...
"A vessel of mercy afore prepared unto glory."
It is not a pre-requisite to the Lord saving someone, it is post-"requisite" to Him doing so.

The Gospel is not the message of potential salvation to all men, it is the message of God's love towards His children and their deliverance from His wrath and to an eternal relationship with Him and His Son.
Their belief of it was given to them in the behalf of Christ ( Philippians 1:29 ).
Their faith through all their trials and tribulations in this life is a gift from Him ( and is a fruit of the Spirit, the mark of a true believer ) not something that we as men provide in order to gain His favor.

You genuinely do not understand this, do you?

This will be my last response to you because once again your replies toward me just deteriorate into this.

Here is what you do not seem to understand. If my point does not apply to your theology then it’s not necessary for you to get involved. I’ll give you this, your position that God did not design salvation so that man must respond prior to salvation is a much stronger position than many of your reformed brothers who hold that such an idea would be works. Your position is at least consistent and reasonable however wrong it is.

 

[Reformed1689]

So, you are saying a person must have faith before they have faith, otherwise they cannot believe before they believe?

And you think I have something backward.

A person responds to God’s intervention with faith that Jesus is Savior.

I understand faith is a gift, but saying you must have faith before you have faith is nonsensical.

It is enough for me to praise God as responsible for salvation from start to finish.

peace to you

Dave is a hyper-Calvinist.

 

[canadyjd]

It's the beginning of the salvation experience. If you ever experience the new birth, it's self-explanatory. The Spirit bears witness with your spirit and causes you to believe in the Christ associated with that experience.

Are you saying I haven’t “experienced the new birth”?

peace to you

 

[1689Dave]

Are you saying I haven’t “experienced the new birth”?

peace to you

You would be first to know if you did. It's an experience that makes understanding scripture possible. I had never been happier than when I experienced it.

 

[1689Dave]

The whole debate in a nutshell: How it works: Two different atonements = two different gospels.

The gospel designed for universal atonement won't fit the limited atonement. Nor will the limited atonement gospel fit the universal atonement.

Universal gospel = an offer for people to save themselves through obedience.

Limited gospel = essentially an announcement made to all. Seeking those who believe, telling them they are saved, faith being the evidence of eternal life found in those who God saves.

 

[canadyjd]

You would be first to know if you did. It's an experience that makes understanding scripture possible. I had never been happier than when I experienced it.

Are you saying that if I were truly saved, I would understand scripture exactly like you do? Since I don’t, I’m not saved. Is that what you are saying?

peace to you

 

[1689Dave]

Are you saying that if I were truly saved, I would understand scripture exactly like you do? Since I don’t, I’m not saved. Is that what you are saying?

peace to you

There is only one revealed truth. The rest is an attempt by the flesh to make sense of scripture.

 

[canadyjd]

There is only one revealed truth. The rest is an attempt by the flesh to make sense of scripture.

The truth of scripture is that Jesus said let your Yes be Yes and your No be No.

Let’s see if you can follow the commands of our Lord Jesus.

Are you saying that if I were truly saved, I would understand scripture exactly like you do. Since I don’t , then I am not truly saved. Is that what you are saying?

Let your Yes be Yes and your No be No, if you are able.

peace to you

 

[1689Dave]

The truth of scripture is that Jesus said let your Yes be Yes and your No be No.

Let’s see if you can follow the commands of our Lord Jesus.

Are you saying that if I were truly saved, I would understand scripture exactly like you do. Since I don’t , then I am not truly saved. Is that what you are saying?

Let your Yes be Yes and your No be No, if you are able.

peace to you

So your gospel says nothing but yes or no?

 

[1689Dave]

The truth of scripture is that Jesus said let your Yes be Yes and your No be No.

Let’s see if you can follow the commands of our Lord Jesus.

Are you saying that if I were truly saved, I would understand scripture exactly like you do. Since I don’t , then I am not truly saved. Is that what you are saying?

Let your Yes be Yes and your No be No, if you are able.

peace to you

We are to be of the one common faith. Not like today.

 

[37818]

Again. The point of this thread. If the Calvinist Limited Atonement position is true. Unsaved people who are not elect, therefore for whom Christ would not have died are going to hear the gospel. Mark 16:15, 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, Colossians 1:23.

 

[1689Dave]

Again. The point of this thread. If the Calvinist Limited Atonement position is true. Unsaved people who are not elect, therefore for whom Christ would not have died are going to hear the gospel. Mark 16:15, 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, Colossians 1;23.

As I explained. You have a universal atonement gospel and you are attacking it because it doesn't fit Limited Atonement. You assume that you have the true gospel which can be easily proven wrong to the unbiased reader.

 

[canadyjd]

So your gospel says nothing but yes or no?

Jesus said to let your Yes be Yes and your No be No. Are you able to obey the command of our Lord Jesus?

You are making indirect accusations that I am unsaved because I don’t understand scripture exactly like you do. Undoubtably, you know that to say so directly would get you banned from the BB.

And so, you refuse to obey our Lord by saying it directly., obeying the rules of the BB rather than obeying the commands of our Lord Jesus.

What does Holy Spirit indwelling tell you? Are you grieving Holy Spirit by refusing to obey our Lord Jesus?

peace to you

 

[1689Dave]

Jesus said to let your Yes be Yes and your No be No. Are you able to obey the command of our Lord Jesus?

You are making indirect accusations that I am unsaved because I don’t understand scripture exactly like you do. Undoubtably, you know that to say so directly would get you banned from the BB.

And so, you refuse to obey our Lord by saying it directly., obeying the rules of the BB rather than obeying the commands of our Lord Jesus.

What does Holy Spirit indwelling tell you? Are you grieving Holy Spirit by refusing to obey our Lord Jesus?

peace to you

You should know by experience if you are born again. It's Phenomenal happiness like nothing you ever experienced before.

 

[canadyjd]

You should know by experience if you are born again. It's Phenomenal happiness like nothing you ever experienced before.

I have no doubt that I am born again. I have Holy Spirit indwelling. Holy Spirit testifies with my spirit that I am a child of God.

You have expressed doubt s about my salvation, because I don’t believe exactly like you do.

Just say it plainly, if you are able. Otherwise, stop the vague accusations.

peace to you

 

[1689Dave]

I have no doubt that I am born again. I have Holy Spirit indwelling.

You have expressed doubt s about my salvation, because I don’t believe exactly like you do.

Just say it plainly, if you are able. Otherwise, stop the vague accusations.

peace to you

If the Spirit bears witness with your spirit you will know it. It causes you to believe in the true Christ.