Why Calvinists and Arminianists are both wrong

[Pastor Larry]

Lie.

I think the facts bear this out.

They were coherent enough to reply to with incoherent "Uh" and "um no" comments.

I didn't say they were incoherent. I said they were incorrect. If you thought I said "incoherent" it's just another sign that you don't read carefully. If you knew I said "incorrect" and responded with a statement about being coherent, then it's a sign that you are playing word games. Either way, you still lose.

My statements of "Um, no" were not incoherent. You clearly understood what they meant. I simply said you were incorrect. You are.

Defining it biblically is to not bind God to time.

When you read Scripture, you see that God is the one who bound himself to time. He is hte one who said "before." I didn't make that up.

..yet you continue to reply. I guess it's coherent enough, then.

No, it was incoherent. Here is what you said: Your ignorance on time is startling, concerning words do have meanings. I am telling you that the second part of that (concerning words do have meanings) makes no grammatical sense. When you read it, you will have to agree. (And then you should be embarrassed that you are missing the point about it.)

I see you still do not know what the word means.

Where do you see that? I am telling you God used the word "before" with respect to "the foundation of the world." So if I am wrong, then God is wrong. He is the one who put an act (choosing) prior to the foundation of the world.

That you don't get that only indicates that you still have no clue as to what the issues and categories actually are. It's fine that you disagree. I don't really care. But you don't even seem to understand the issues.

Wrong. It states plainly we are chosen for salvation through faith and the work of the Spirit.

Exactly my point.

The choosing is the whole of the entire phrase. You have eisegeted the choosing out of the passage, which is not a shock.

No, I am the one insisting on teh "choosing" in the passage. We are chosen "for salvation." That's what it says. The salvation, according to the rest of the Bible, comes through sanctification of the Spirit and belief in the truth. The Bible nowhere else says that choosing comes through sancitification or belief.

Not only is this also a lie, but could be said of your approach as well.

Interesting. So you think a lie could be said of my approach?

I bet you didn't even catch what you were saying. It's indicative yet again that you don't read carefully and don' think carefully. These kinds of comments are part of the whole indicator that you just don't get it, after all these many posts. Apparently this is a pet topic of yours. It used to be of mine. But for your pet topic, you should be better at arguing for it than you are.

 

[webdog]

I think the facts bear this out

I agree...the facts show it to be a lie.

I didn't say they were incoherent. I said they were incorrect. If you thought I said "incoherent" it's just another sign that you don't read carefully. If you knew I said "incorrect" and responded with a statement about being coherent, then it's a sign that you are playing word games. Either way, you still lose.

Lose what? Is there a prize I'm missing? Is that what you see this as, winning and losing? Apparently, since you must have the last word in every debate on the BB.

My statements of "Um, no" were not incoherent. You clearly understood what they meant. I simply said you were incorrect. You are.

And you are...? What authority are you exactly?

When you read Scripture, you see that God is the one who bound himself to time. He is hte one who said "before." I didn't make that up.

Hogwash. Nowhere does Scripture even hint at such nonsense.

No, it was incoherent. Here is what you said: Your ignorance on time is startling, concerning words do have meanings. I am telling you that the second part of that (concerning words do have meanings) makes no grammatical sense. When you read it, you will have to agree. (And then you should be embarrassed that you are missing the point about it.)

What do I need to be embarrassed about? The better choice of wording should have been considering...but the point is easily understood. When you type "teh" I know what you are trying to say, even though there is no English word "teh".

Where do you see that? I am telling you God used the word "before" with respect to "the foundation of the world." So if I am wrong, then God is wrong. He is the one who put an act (choosing) prior to the foundation of the world.

Nobody is wrong but you. God is also described as a consuming fire...you take that literally as well? His second coming will entail an actual sword from His mouth?

That you don't get that only indicates that you still have no clue as to what the issues and categories actually are. It's fine that you disagree. I don't really care. But you don't even seem to understand the issues.

I'm quite clear on the issues...and based on your reply about God binding Himself to time, it is quite clear who is not understanding the issue here.

Exactly my point.

Which was not a point at all.

No, I am the one insisting on teh "choosing" in the passage. We are chosen "for salvation." That's what it says. The salvation, according to the rest of the Bible, comes through sanctification of the Spirit and belief in the truth. The Bible nowhere else says that choosing comes through sancitification or belief.

My Bible doesn't have a period after salvation...so that is not what it says.

Interesting. So you think a lie could be said of my approach?

What do you think?

I bet you didn't even catch what you were saying. It's indicative yet again that you don't read carefully and don' think carefully. These kinds of comments are part of the whole indicator that you just don't get it, after all these many posts. Apparently this is a pet topic of yours. It used to be of mine. But for your pet topic, you should be better at arguing for it than you are.

For a pastor to claim some of the things you do, is mind boggling. Your complete lack of grace is very unbecoming of a pastor, and your desire to "win"...I don't know what to make of it. My interaction with you going forward will be kept to a limit.

 

[Rippon]

Webdog, you have gone over the edge. I guess you'd like to rewrite the Bible. Your favorite English translations have the word "before" -- deal with it. You have no authority on the matter -- before, now, or later. Your argument is not biblical, historical Christianity. Join the more orthodox folks -- drop your nonsense.

 

[Pastor Larry]

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I agree...the facts show it to be a lie.

You see, this is what you do. You take words that mean one thing and make them mean something else. Your whole theology is based on that.[/FONT]
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Lose what? Is there a prize I'm missing? Is that what you see this as, winning and losing? Apparently, since you must have the last word in every debate on the BB.

You lose the issue. The facts won’t support your view.[/FONT]
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And you are...? What authority are you exactly?

I think I am correct. I have taken the time to study. I might be wrong. [/FONT]
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Hogwash. Nowhere does Scripture even hint at such nonsense.

So when Scripture says God chose you before the foundation of the world that is nonsense that isn’t even hinted at? God is the one who used the word “before.” [/FONT]
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What do I need to be embarrassed about? The better choice of wording should have been considering...but the point is easily understood. When you type "teh" I know what you are trying to say, even though there is no English word "teh".

There is an English word “concerning.” It made no sense in the sentence. It was incoherent. [/FONT]
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Nobody is wrong but you.

And you are …? What authority are you? You see, when I say this, you attack me, but then you say it to me.[/FONT]
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God is also described as a consuming fire...you take that literally as well? His second coming will entail an actual sword from His mouth?

I am not sure the point here so I will refrain from responding until I understand better how this relates to the conversation here.[/FONT]
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My Bible doesn't have a period after salvation...so that is not what it says.

Mine doesn’t either. But when we read the sentence, it is easy enough to see what it means. Salvation, in the Bible, comes through setting apart of the Spirit and belief in the truth. Election is never said to come through those things. [/FONT]
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What do you think?

About what specifically? About that comment? I thought it was funny that you say my statement about yoru comments was a lie and then you say that the same thing could be said about mind, meaning you think that if what I said about your statements was said about mine, it would be a lie. Which would mean that you would be agreeing with me. Think about it.[/FONT]
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For a pastor to claim some of the things you do, is mind boggling.

Such as what?[/FONT]
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Your complete lack of grace is very unbecoming of a pastor, and your desire to "win"...I don't know what to make of it. My interaction with you going forward will be kept to a limit.

What lack of grace? Since when is having a theological discussion a lack of grace? Since when is knowing what I am talking about a lack of grace? I have not shown any lack of grace towards you. To the contrary, I have bent over backwards and spent much time trying to talk these things through with you. Long ago I began to limit my discussions with you because they were fruitless repetitions of things that had already been clearly stated. I don’t have a desire to win. I like theology. I like discussion. [/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]On this topic, some of your statements are completely incoherent theologically, and some of them are outright denials of Scripture (cf. your comments about “before the foundation of the world” being impossible when God said that is what he did). I really don’t care what you believe. I think we all ought to be open to challenge without getting personal or taking things personal. I think you do that too much.
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[FONT=&quot]Perhaps there is some pride there where you think that everyone who doesn't agree with you is a heretic who needs to be corrected. I don't. I have the conversation, and then I move on. You won't answer to me for what you believe. I don't have to win. I don't really care. But I think the Bible is clear, and I like to discuss that. So I would encourage you to back off, be less ready to take offense, and more ready to interact substantively with the issues.
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[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Pastor Larry: WCF 11:1 Those whom God effectually calleth He also freely justifieth;(1) not by infusing righteousness into them, but by pardoning their sins, and by accounting and accepting their persons as righteous: not for anything wrought in them, or done by them, but for Christ's sake alone: nor by imputing faith itself, the act of believing, or any other evangelical obedience, to them as their righteousness; but by imputing the obedience and satisfaction of Christ unto them,(2) they receiving and resting on Him and His righteousness, by faith: which faith they have not of themselves; it is the gift of God.(3)


I could cite other examples, but this should be sufficient to show that Westminster and those who hold to it most certainly do not believe what you charged they believe. To Westminster, faith does matter.

HP: Faith, according to this confession, amounts to nothing more or less than the necessitated results of fate itself. Either fate bestows such ‘faith’ or it does not, but either way mans will has absolutely nothing to do with having faith or not. Such faith is in reality no faith at all. It is nothing but sheer unadulterated necessity.

This confession again destroys the reality of faith. God indeed gives to all men a measure of faith, but until God’s provision to all is acted upon voluntarily by the will of man, faith may be a gift but is not saving faith in the least. Saving faith involves not only the free gift but the cooperation of the will of man in voluntary obedience to that gift.

No Pastor Larry, faith as defined by the confession you set forth is in reality no faith at all, and in actuality destroys the reality of a proper concept of what saving faith entails and how it is formed.

 

[historyb]

Faith is not found, it is given

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Rippon: Join the more orthodox folks -- drop your nonsense.

HP: Orthodoxy! Speaking often concerning nonsense..........

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Historyb: Faith is not found, it is given

HP: Faith is not merely given, it must be acted upon by the will of man to be effectual in salvation or pleasing God period.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Calvinists and Arminians are both wrong because they both start their theology from the false Augustinian notion of original sin. The Arminian tries to distance himself from imputing guilt based on OS but none the less it affects the Arminian doctrine in many negative ways.

Wesley intuitively felt he was far too close to Calvinism and the error it imbibed, but evidently failed to recognize the source of such close affiliation. It certainly remains no mystery today.

 

[historyb]

HP: Faith is not merely given, it must be acted upon by the will of man to be effectual in salvation or pleasing God period.

Intial Faith is given, man is totally incapable of seeking God

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Historyb: Intial Faith is given, man is totally incapable of seeking God

HP: Initial faith that is simply given is granted to ALL men according to Scripture, but such faith will never save in and of itself.

Scripture is replete with instances of man seeking God. We are not only told we can seek God but are commanded to do so.
Pr 8:17 I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me. Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. Lu 11:9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. Isa 55:6 ¶ Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:…….just to point out a few passages that deal with that issue.

 

[historyb]

No man can seek God, no men period. Only when God regenerates man can man respond and seek God, but on his own no man will.

11no one understands;
no one seeks for God.

Romans 3:11

Man is not capable of seeking God on their own because we are dead in our sins.

5even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ— by grace you have been saved—

Ephesians 2:5

We can not do anything to save ourselves

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Historyb: No man can seek God, no men period. Only when God regenerates man can man respond and seek God, but on his own no man will.

11no one understands;
no one seeks for God.

HP: Here you confuse reality with an impossibility. Certainly the whole world, when these words were spoken, had became sinful, but that in no wise suggests an impossibility as you suggest it does. I might say, no one has climbed a mountain, but does that in any way prove it is impossible for man to climb it?

Historyb: Romans 3:11

Man is not capable of seeking God on their own because we are dead in our sins.

HP: To be ‘dead is not to be unable but to be totally unwilling. We are to recon ourselves dead to sin. Are you suggesting that it is impossible for you to sin? I certainly do not believe so, never the less, we are to become totally unwilling, i.e., dead to sin.

Historyb: 5even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ— by grace you have been saved—

Ephesians 2:5

We can not do anything to save ourselves

HP: Nothing we do in relationship to salvation is meritorious in nature, nor is anything we do the grounds of our salvation, nor has anything we done devised the plan of salvation. There are some things man must do, without which no man shall be saved. We must voluntarily yield our wills in repentance and faith towards God, without which no one shall be saved.

Man does nothing to save themselves, yet without man fulfilling the conditions of salvation God has commanded man to fulfill, none will be saved.

 

[Rippon]

HP: Initial faith that is simply given is granted to ALL men according to Scripture, but such faith will never save in and of itself.

"Initial faith"? The faith that God gives is only saving faith. The Lord grants that to some only -- not each and every.

 

[historyb]

HP: Here you confuse reality with an impossibility. Certainly the whole world, when these words were spoken, had became sinful, but that in no wise suggests an impossibility as you suggest it does. I might say, no one has climbed a mountain, but does that in any way prove it is impossible for man to climb it?



HP: To be ‘dead is not to be unable but to be totally unwilling. We are to recon ourselves dead to sin. Are you suggesting that it is impossible for you to sin? I certainly do not believe so, never the less, we are to become totally unwilling, i.e., dead to sin.


HP: Nothing we do in relationship to salvation is meritorious in nature, nor is anything we do the grounds of our salvation, nor has anything we done devised the plan of salvation. There are some things man must do, without which no man shall be saved. We must voluntarily yield our wills in repentance and faith towards God, without which no one shall be saved.

Man does nothing to save themselves, yet without man fulfilling the conditions of salvation God has commanded man to fulfill, none will be saved.

No man at anytime can fulfill anything God wants on their own, period.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Historyb: No man at anytime can fulfill anything God wants on their own, period.

HP: Would you have a Scripture that attests to that?

 

[historyb]

11no one understands;
no one seeks for God.

Romans 3:11


5
even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ— by grace you have been saved—

Ephesians 2:5

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

The Scripture you give has nothing directly to do with your former comment. Try again or show how it is connected in your estimation.

 

[historyb]

It has everything to do with it, we in an unregenerate state can not do anything, we are DEAD. Dead man can not do anything, in that state we can not even seek out God nor do we want to. It is only when Christ regenerates us can we then through His power seek Him and respond to Him.

• Genesis 6:5: "The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually."

• Psalms 51:5: "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me."

• Psalms 58:3: "The wicked are estranged from the womb; they go astray from birth, speaking lies."

• Ecclesiastes 7:20: "Surely there is not a righteous man on earth who does good and never sins."

• Ecclesiastes 9:3: "This is an evil in all that is done under the sun, that the same event happens to all. Also, the hearts of the children of man are full of evil, and madness is in their hearts while they live, and after that they go to the dead."

• Jeremiah 17:9: "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?"

• Jeremiah 13:23: "Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots? Neither can you do good who are accustomed to doing evil.

• Mark 7:21-23: "For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, coveting, wickedness, deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person."

• John 3:19: "And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their deeds were evil."

• John 6:44: "[Jesus said,] 'No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.'"

• John 8:34: "Jesus answered them, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin.'"

• Romans 3:10-11: "None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God."

• Romans 8:7-8: "For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God."

• 1 Corinthians 2:14: "The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned."

• Ephesians 2:1-3: "And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience - among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind."

• Titus 3:3: "For we ourselves were once foolish, disobedient, led astray, slaves to various passions and pleasures, passing our days in malice and envy, hated by others and hating one another."

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Historyb: It has everything to do with it, we in an unregenerate state can not do anything, we are DEAD. Dead man can not do anything, in that state we can not even seek out God nor do we want to. It is only when Christ regenerates us can we then through His power seek Him and respond to Him.

HP: To be dead is not to be unable but to be unwilling. Are we not to be dead unto sin as believers? Is it impossible for you to sin?

Simply listing a litany of Scriptures without your interpretation of them does nothing directly to establish your position. Show us how the passage(s) indicates your conclusion. Show us the evidence that to be dead is to be completely unable, that we can do nothing. Scripture pictures the sinner not as a dead log floating down a Calvinistic river, but rather as one actively creating sinful intents to known commandments of God, willingly refusing to do that which God commands him to do. The sinner is continually engaged in disobedience and sin, not simply unable to do anything.