Why Calvinists Preach and Teach the Gospel

God's justice..
Read very carefully, let each passage reach your heart, instead of just your head...
Rom 2:5-11
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
(KJV)

Would you call undeserved mercy for you, and eternal punishment for every one else justice. If 20 men were convicted of murder, and you were one of them; 19 of them got probation, yet you got the death penalty. Yet you are all guilty of exactly the same crime: No mitigating circumstances, would you call that justice.

Verse 7, tells what we must do in order to receive mercy, God made it possible for the other 19 that were convicted to obey and receive mercy, but he blinded you to the truth, and burned you; while opening the eyes of the other 19 so that they could receive mercy. What does God hold against you that he does not hold against the others.

Notice that the scriptures/thoughts end with, "For there is no respect of persons with God. That means that the same opportunity to do good is afforded to all, and we are judged by the choices that we make. That means that there will be no efficacious grace for you and hell for everybody else.

Prov 20:7-11
7 The just man walketh in his integrity: his children are blessed after him.
8 A king that sitteth in the throne of judgment scattereth away all evil with his eyes.
9 Who can say, I have made my heart clean, I am pure from my sin?
10 Divers weights, and divers measures, both of them are alike abomination to the LORD.
11 Even a child is known by his doings, whether his work be pure, and whether it be right.
(KJV)
Efficacious grace for you, hell for me is an abomination unto the lord.

Ezek 45:10
10 Ye shall have just balances, and a just ephah, and a just bath. (KJV)
The balances must be the same for all....

The above scriptures support my acessment of justice.

May I have your accessment please.....

[ September 13, 2002, 04:24 PM: Message edited by: Chappie ]

 

Brother Chappie,

Very interesting comment. So, what do you believe to be the mitigating circumstances why God, in order to be just, would show mercy to one person and give justice to a different person?

Ken </font>[/QUOTE]((((( FAITH!!!! )))))

[ September 13, 2002, 09:59 PM: Message edited by: Chappie ]

 

2 Thess 2:8-12
8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion,that they should believe a lie:12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.KJV

Some choose to believe a lie rather than giving up those nights of pleasure with the wife of their best friend.

[ September 14, 2002, 01:11 AM: Message edited by: Chappie ]

 

Brother Chappie,

I would be interested in how you relate your view to:
(1 Cor 4:6-7 NKJV) Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively transferred to myself and Apollos for your sakes, that you may learn in us not to think beyond what is written, that none of you may be puffed up on behalf of one against the other. {7} For who makes you differ from another? And what do you have that you did not receive? Now if you did indeed receive it, why do you boast as if you had not received it? (1 Cor 4:6-7 NKJV) Ken </font>[/QUOTE][/b]
Your assumption I believe to be, is that freewill automatically produces boasting. Needless to say, I whole heartedly disagree. Pride and boasting spring forth from an evil heart. Does saying that, all that i have, God gave me, automatically produce a contrite spirit? No, not if lurking in your heart is the thought; but he didn't give it to you.. Can you see what's in my heart.
Here we go::
Now these things, brethren, I have “figuratively” (Defining word) transferred to myself and Apollos for your sakes, that you may learn in us not to think beyond what is written,[/b]
What God has not revealed is not intended that we know. Stick to what has been revealed..

that none of you may be puffed up on behalf of one against the other.
Claims of hidden knowledge or personal revelations have a tendency to produce pride.

For who makes you differ from another? And what do you have that you did not receive?
Not an inference to salvation; in reference to salvation, we are all the same. There is none righteous, no not one. So if there are none righteous, how does God choose? Without being a respecter of persons, how does God accomplish his purposes, yet does not violate his sense of justice. He set’s criteria that is possible for all to accomplish. And we are either accepted or rejected based on that criterion. Now we are response + able, we are responsible for our own actions…

Without the life that God gave us, we could have nothing. We have, because God first gave. God is the giver of all good things. If your inference is that God created one for heaven and one for hell without the offer of redemption to all, it is incorrect.

Now if you did indeed receive it, why do you boast as if you had not received it?
Applying this passage to our conversation, if you were to say, because God chose me, I am going to heaven, but all those that he did not choose are going to hell. From your perspective you have spoken truth, but would it be correct that I say that you are boasting?

If I were to say, The Holy Spirit of God lives in me; am I boasting. ((( NO ))). Not until I say, na,na,na; he does not indwell you am I boasting. If I say, I am a child of God, but you ain't; I am boasting. But if I say, I am a child of God, and I offer Christ to you, I am not boasting.

To say; I choose Christ as my Lord and Savior with the intent of offering Christ to you is not boasting. To say that, I choose Christ as though Christ was not the instrument that made it possible, is boasting. You see, I know who my creator and my lord and savior is. Even for the power to choose him, to God be the glory. In Christ, all things are possible.

Truth be told, indigenous to the word "Choice" is criteria. If God choose without criteria, truth is, he needs to use another word to illustrate his actions. Only in scripture does the word take on a whole new set of dynamics...

Question for you:
What in Adam caused him to disobey God? Was it his choice, or was it God's choice. Was it impossible for him to reject Satan that day?

Did Adam sin because he was sinful, or was he sinful because he sinned.

If Adam's sin was anything but a choice that "he" made, why is God angry? If Adam's sin was a part of God's plan all along, is not God’s anger just a charade? Please answer logically and realistically.

[ September 14, 2002, 12:07 PM: Message edited by: Chappie ]

 

Brother Chappie,

An excellent post as you anticipated well.

1) Adam and Eve have been the only (human-only) people who have had true free will. Do you agree? He could truly choose to obey or disobey without the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit in his life.

2) It was his choice.

3) No, it was not impossible for him to have rejected Satan that day.

4) Adam was sinful after he sinned, not before.

5) It was a choice that Adam made. God hates sin.

6) Adam's sin was not a part of God's plan all along. God, Who is omniscient, knew Adam would sin, and God made provision to save a multitude from all over the earth from the consequences of Adam's sin and their own sin that would follow.

Ken </font>[/QUOTE]Greetings Ken.
Ok, no more Mr. Nice guy, I have to take the gloves off in order to say what I have to say..

First of all, I want to say that I so appreciate you as my brother in Christ; your taking the time to share your faith with me and to allow me to do the same is invaluable to me. May God bless ya. (I’m eating up that Brother Chappie stuff)

That said, we can go back to being nice to each other….

How about that, we agree on five out of six points. So now let’s talk about that #1 up there..

First of all, I am not aware of scriptures that indicate that Adam, in human history, is the only one that had the ability to choose. I believe the concept to be a projection somewhat influenced by previously held conclusions. In other words, if this is, then this has to be….

Yet, let’s take a closer look anyway.

Choice is inherently impossible without outside influence. Choice cannot be exercised without a minimum of two things to choose from. Choice also cannot be effected without outside persuasions. There must be something desirable in what we choose to a greater or lesser degree…..

What did Adam have to choose between? Obedience and disobedience. What were the two persuasions acting outside of Adam seeking to be the object of Adam’s choice? First we have the persuasion of a benevolent creator seeking fellowship with the promise of a life in paradise. Second, we have a fallen Angel seeking to destroy what God seeks to accomplish by offering Adam the opportunity to have knowledge that is forbidden by his creator. Both to some degree or another are desirable.

Persuasions…. We have God on one side seeking to persuade Adam to be obedient to him and serve him: We have Satan on the other side trying to persuade Adam to obey him and follow him. Both persuasions have to offer something desirable in an effort to entice one to be obedient to them. God offered love and fellowship, Satan offered forbidden knowledge that would make Adam more like God. Neither is inherently evil. But alas, Satan was lying. God told the truth.

Adams problem then is the same problem that we face today. He did not love the truth of God enough to hold on to it. He allowed himself to be subjected to a deception, and he bought into it.

This is exactly what is happening today. God on one side enticing us to come to him and receive the pleasures of his love and security, Satan on the other side enticing us with the pleasures of this world. The same temptations that Christ experienced in the wilderness, we are experiencing today. Satan promised Christ what he could not deliver; he is still making that same promise today. Nothing inherently evil in Adam caused him to believe Satan. The key is to test everything by the word of God.

Satan on one side, pulling; God on the other side, pulling. But God will not exert a measure of his power so strong that will usurp authority over our ability to resist, neither will he allow Satan to do the same. Therefore, if we come to Christ, we do so willingly, if we emanate to Satan, we do so willingly. We are responsible for our choice. Yet God is still in charge

 

Within the concept of the "Total depravity of man" is the idea that man will not choose "the light" without the supernatural work of God overpowering the weakness of total-depravity.

But in fact God says "I will draw ALL men unto Me" John 12:32.

So total depravity is not what causes Calvinism to insist that men do not have a choice today. It is still only based on their insistance on redefining "all mankind" and "Whole World" as it is 'needed' to sustain Calvinism.

In Christ,

Bob

 

The bigger question is HOW would you conduct Evangelism IF you really believed that statement?

IF you agree that God ALONE decides and acts in the case of Salvation - then WHY not tell them in your Evangelistic Crusade? Why adopt the Arminian system of APPEALING to motive, Choice, and urgencey when NONE of that maters at all or has any affect on the outcome?

Why not say as Calvinism teaches "We are gathered here to watch and see what God has planned for this afternoon by way of salvation. Perhaps as we sit here we will find that some people here are the arbitrarily select FEW of Matt 7. Let's watch.

Because only they CAN come to salvation and nothing we do here - and nothing you may or may not want - will changed that in any way".

And yet - instead - they present the Arminian model - appealing to choice, and motive and "urgency" - even though none of that has any impact at all on the outcome. Or does it? .. How telling.

In Christ,

Bob

[ September 14, 2002, 04:32 PM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]

 

Ken
I have never held that position, the bible is very clear: We are conceived in sin and shappened in iniquity. There is none righteous, no, not one; for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. I can see you running from much that is taught in the church today. I have done the same myself. Yet I ran straight to the bible, not from one man made doctrine to another. (No reflection on you, just my story)

Yet, even Calvinist believe in the power of God to overcome sin. You call it efficacious grace. God’s grace is efficacious in the face of sin. Yet God will not apply this grace to a person that is not willing to volitionally receive Christ as their Lord and Savior. Choose ye this day whom you will serve. Choose Christ and God will apply efficacious grace to the sin in your life. Eg. is applied to sin, not to the sinner. This is why I say that you will never find a scripture in the bible proclaiming salvation with an individuals name in it.

When I first came to the ministry, my tutor was an excellent Calvinist oriented preacher that loved and respected me and taught me much. Yet I have never, even under his tutelage been able to embrace efficacious grace. In spite of my fall into depravity, My God still makes it possible for me to come to him… He is a teadybear for this submission stuff. He still gets all googlie eyed when I tell him just how much I love him…. He is in love with being loved. He knows that I only love him because he first loved me, but he is happy because he knows that it is “Me” that loves him…

Finally, God’s sense of justice demands equal access to his grace by all of his creatures….

 

The bigger question is HOW would you conduct Evangelism IF you really believed that statement?

IF you agree that God ALONE decides and acts in the case of Salvation - then WHY not tell them in your Evangelistic Crusade? Why adopt the Arminian system of APPEALING to motive, Choice, and urgencey when NONE of that maters at all or has any affect on the outcome?

Why not say as Calvinism teaches "We are gathered here to watch and see what God has planned for this afternoon by way of salvation. Perhaps as we sit here we will find that some people here are the arbitrarily select FEW of Matt 7. Let's watch.

Because only they CAN come to salvation and nothing we do here - and nothing you may or may not want - will changed that in any way".

And yet - instead - they present the Arminian model - appealing to choice, and motive and "urgency" - even though none of that has any impact at all on the outcome. Or does it? .. How telling.

In Christ,

Bob</font>[/QUOTE]If I believed it, I would preach it just as you have explained it.....

 

The "problem" is that you are appealing to a method - a "means" that "should" have no affect whatsoever according to Calvinism.

The tactic of claiming that you have to use the Arminian model of Evangelism "Apealing to CHOICE" - that according to Calvinism should not make any difference at all to your audience since it has absolutely nothing to do with what they will choose - does not make sense.

I fully understand using a simple model because it DOES work where a more complex model will not. But in Calvinism - that Arminian model is not supposed to make any difference at all on the outcome. God has predestined them no matter which model you choose. You should not be using the Arminian model of evangelism IF it really has no effect and preaching Calvinism would get the same predestined results - only with consistency.

The fact that you choose the Arminian model is more telling than you choose to concede.

In Christ,

Bob

[ September 14, 2002, 10:56 PM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]

 

Ken,

I have no objection to the consistency in Calvinism of telling the story - giving the information.

But making "appeals" - appealing for choice, finding "motivation" and "urgency" in the message - is the Arminian model - appealing for choice. It should be clear that a Calvinist model would simply tell the story and then instead of an Arminian appeal to Choose - it should be the much more satisfying task of "observing".

One does not ask a rocket to CHOOSE to fire up and CHOOSE to lift off. Rather - once you have fueled up - you OBSERVE that it takes off once the sovereign igniter of fuel fires it up. No amount of arguing the Rocket - or motivating it will "make any difference at all".

Salvation is ALL of God and NONE of man - for Calvinism that means that nothing the preacher says - matters, and nothing the listener "Wants" makes any change at all in the predestined outcome. We can highlight the value of Calvinism - by just sitting back and watching what can not be motivated and what man can not contribute to - in any way. Like watching the Creator make a planet - trying to "motivate" the ground to CHOOSE to bring forth grass - makes no difference at all.

In Christ,

Bob