Why Calvinists Preach and Teach the Gospel

Bob,

Once again you are missing that point that where God ordains the ends, he also ordains the means. Having the gospel preached preached to his elect is not that big a deal for the sovereign creator of the universe. Paul, the biggest human believer ever in the sovereignty of God in salvation, praised God for choosing the saints in Thessalonica and goes right on to talk about the role of the word in that response to the choice. God does not save people apart from the word. Your contention really holds no water because it is based on a faulty presupposition -- namely, that God will save his elect apart from the communication of the Word.

 

Pastor Larry:
I understand you to believe that God will save his elect through the preaching of the gospel. I agree. Yet I also believe that he calls his elect through the preaching of that same gospel..

My helmet of salvation.
Why I believe that I am saved.
I believe that the word “Whosoever” means exactly what it implies, "anybody". I can find no passages of scripture that indicate that this word is moderated by predestination, ordination, or election. For me the following passages mean that anybody, that is willing; by the power of God can come to Christ and be saved.

I believe that God uses the Gospel to call people to repentance. The fact that all do not come does negate the fact that it still accomplishes God’s purposes. Yet it in no way personally rewards one with heaven and condemns another to hell absent an equal opportunity for all to come to a saving knowledge of God's grace.. You betcha, I believe that God is an equal opportunity father.. His revealed sense of justice demands it.

Rom 10:9-13
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
KJV

John 3:16
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that “whosoever” believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
KJV

Acts 2:21
21 And it shall come to pass, that “whosoever” shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
KJV

Acts 10:43
43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name “whosoever” believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
KJV

Strongs bible dictionary;
Whosoever:
NT:3956 pas (pas); including all the forms of declension; apparently a primary word; all, any, every, the whole:

I am saved not by what I did, but by what God said, by what God did... My assurance of salvation is not based on some emotion of mine that can mislead me; it rests squarely upon the word of God. This is why I feel the Gospel is so important; God uses it to call out an elect (A chosen people) people unto himself…

How do you know, and why do you feel that God has elected Pastor Larry…..

[ September 15, 2002, 12:32 PM: Message edited by: Chappie ]

 

I do as well. And the key phrase is exactly the way you put it: He calls his elect. He does not elect those who respond.

I believe this too but you left off one important word ... will. Whosoever will. Those who wont' are not saved and they show themselves not to be a part of the elect by virtue of their own free rejection. Whosoever will is clearly connected with election because apart from election and the efficacious call, no one "will" believe.

I too feel the gospel is important. However, according to you, the difference between the saved and unsaved is what you did. That contradicts your whole point. For me the difference is God.

First, it is not about my feelings. My assurance is based on the fact that I understood and willingly responded. Only the elect do that, according to Scripture (Acts 13:48, etc.).

 

Primitive Baptists preach the gospel because it saves the elect. God chose the foolishness of preaching to "save them that believe" (1 Cor. 1:21), not those who do not believe. The gospel is foolishness to them that perish; "but unto us which are saved it is the power of God." (1 Cor. 1:18) The gospel does not save the elect for heaven, but it does save them in time from the religious world. "Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee." (1 Tim. 4:16) The gospel which is the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ saved all His people for heaven. Ministers preach that gospel, but the preaching of that gospel does not save them. The Living Gospel Himself is what saved His people. "Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain." (1 Cor. 15:1, 2) If you noticed, there is an "if" in that text. There is a salvation in the preaching of the gospel like there is a salvation in baptism. "The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:" (1 Pet. 3:21) The gospel is not the substance of our salvation, but what the gospel testifies of, Jesus Christ, is alone the substance of our salvation. This is not what most Calvinistic Baptists believe, but this is what the Primitive Baptists believe. We had two sisters come to the front of the church this morning crying, and they confessed the Lord Jesus Christ and are to be baptized. That, my friends, is the grace of God. I would not trade it for anything!

[ September 15, 2002, 04:47 PM: Message edited by: Primitive Baptist ]

 

Perhaps not your POV, but I was under the impression that only the elect were made capable of responding. So does this mean that some that are not of the elect will respond and yet be rejected by God??

Again, your comments appear to imply that God’s efficacious call is not irresistible. You appear to say that some were called and rejected. Or are you saying that there are two calls extended, one to all, that cannot save, and another to a precious few that will save. The bible also states that the gospel is the power of God unto salvation. Is the gospel at least extended to all? Now, I am not asking about some kind of placating call, is the gospel genuine and true to all, or just a few. Not from man’s perspective. Is the gospel a genuine offer of salvation to all?

My point is that I can do nothing without God; your point appears to indicate that God can do nothing without you. So he graces you so that you cannot refuse him, does he believe that if you refuse him it will ruin his whole set of plans…
You believe that god does everything, you do nothing. Could you please explain to me the dynamics of a “relationship”? Is it not interaction between two individuals? How can a relationship exist when one is so dominated as to eliminate their volition?

So, this we can base on what you did, smacks of good works to me. Do you understand good enough to save yourself Pastor Larry? Only the elect can do that, but have you understood good enough to become one of the elect. But if God did not base election on anything that you did, what makes you think that he cares enough about your imperfect understanding to make you one of his elect…

Finally, if you willing responded, why did God need to use that irresistible stuff on you?

Pastor Larry, I am tenacious when it comes to my faith, don’t let me get under your skin. And why should I not be tenacious, after all; we are talking about eternity in heaven or hell.

 

Amen, Ken Hamilton. Chappie, are you sure that you understand what we even teach?

 

No. ONly the elect will respond. All others will willfully and freely reject because they desire to.

The gospel is a genuine offer to all who will accept. There are none willing who are turned away. Yet the efficacious setting apart of the Spirit is what ensures belief (2 Thess 2:13; 1 Peter 1:2).

 

And from the posts - Ken also agrees with your views here.

However - that does not address the point - Calvinists are using "appeals to choice" as their FORM of evangelism. Your claim that Arminian means - are the means that God ordains - agrees perfectly with the Arminian model that predicts that very thing.

What is "amazing" is that a Calvinist would acknowledge that these Arminian models of CHOICE - are the correct model. Hearing Calvinist evangelists appealing to Choice and telling the lost that God loves them and died for them - and urging them to choose Christ today - and Do not Wait until it is too late... etc.. removes all doubt as to whether the Arminian model is correct. EVEN the Calvinists use it.

You make the case that these Arminian models are what God has chosen as the MEANS of salvation - bravo! That is what we hav been saying all along.

As for me - I would hate to have to conduct a Calvinist formatted service and confess that this Calvinist model is the MEANS God chooses to save the lost -- as if that somehow proves my views on Arminianism.

In Christ,

Bob

 

I've never heard a Calvinist use language in evangelism such as "Choose before it's too late." As a Primitive Baptist, I don't believe the gospel is an invitation to anything.

http://www@geocities.com/Heartland/Lake/8890/grace/beebe1.html

However, I do believe the missionary priestcraft employed by many who claim to believe in the sovereignty of God and the doctrines of grace is distinctly Arminian.

http://www@geocities.com/Heartland/Lake/8890/grace/priestcraft.html

A great site!

http://www.geocities.com/~mikekrall/grace/graceind.html

 

To speak of choice does not affirm the arminian position. No calvinist believes that God saves people against their will. They freely choose to come to him when he regenerates their will. This is a straw man.

 

To speak of choice does not affirm the arminian position. No calvinist believes that God saves people against their will. They freely choose to come to him when he regenerates their will. This is a straw man.</font>[/QUOTE]Quote:
"No calvinist believes that God saves people against their will. They freely choose to come to him when he regenerates their will. This is a straw man".

This is not true, I have personally dialoged with numerous calvinist (Hope that they were not undercover Arminians) that hold that very same thing to be true...

Will somebody tell me, does irresistible grace mean irresistible. Reminds me of a man in shackels and handcufs proclaiming, "i chose to go to jail".

How can regeneration come first if we are saved by grace "through" faith.

If regeneration is a part of the salvific process, then it must come through faith. Another instance where Calvinism cannot follow a logical sequence of events...

[ September 16, 2002, 11:54 AM: Message edited by: Chappie ]

 

I have never talked to one and if they believe that then they need to change their theology to Scripture. I should probably say I have never seen a calvinist writer or thinker say that. God does not save people against their will.

We have already told you this. IT is efficacious. It is, by flawed analogy only, like leading a horse around in a hot desert for 6 hours and then leading him to water. You are not forcing him to drink but you can be sure that the water is irresistable because you have created a situation in which the horse desires it. God creates that situation in the heart of man, so that the grace is irresistable, not because he beats him over the head but because the inner man changes.

 

Thank you Brother Ken. A logical and intelligent response, even if i do not agree with you.

But alas, I do agree....
You bring me one step closer to becoming a calvinist....
Main Entry: ef·fi·ca·cious
: having the power to produce a desired effect
synonym see EFFECTIVE
Ok, now tell me, is there such a thing as common grace and efficacious grace. Is there two graces, or is it one or the other???

[ September 16, 2002, 02:22 PM: Message edited by: Chappie ]

 

I have never talked to one and if they believe that then they need to change their theology to Scripture. I should probably say I have never seen a calvinist writer or thinker say that. God does not save people against their will.

We have already told you this. IT is efficacious. It is, by flawed analogy only, like leading a horse around in a hot desert for 6 hours and then leading him to water. You are not forcing him to drink but you can be sure that the water is irresistable because you have created a situation in which the horse desires it. God creates that situation in the heart of man, so that the grace is irresistable, not because he beats him over the head but because the inner man changes.</font>[/QUOTE]Conversation from another board::
Chappie
Question #1
Was the fall of Adam efficacious?

Response C-Man.
Answer 2 - Yes, I think so, in that God brought it to pass, in order that His Grace might be displayed in the salvation of some of Adam's fallen children, and His Mercy glorified.[/b][/QUOTE]

Chappie
So you believe that Adam's sin was efficaciously caused so that God might manifest his grace.

C-Man
Gotta go! To sum up, God's grace must be efficacious because of man's Total Depravity. If God doesn't make salvation happen, it will never happen, because sinful man doesn't believe he needs it, and doesn't want it. "Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness rather than light." This is why, if it is to be, it is up to GOD, not me. Gotta go. Maybe more later.
[/B][/QUOTE]
Being that God efficaciously caused Adam to fall, can we in a like manner assume that without God causing it, Adam might never have fallen.

 

When God regenerates a human being He recreates the entire person. The will is only the vehicle by which grace is either received or rejected. Faith is the conduit that delivers the grace to the sinner. Grace in the Bible is always a gift from God. Faith is intertwined with the human will in decision making in matters of personal salvation.

 

Scripture please?

 

Scripture please?</font>[/QUOTE]Eph 2:8
8 For by grace are ye saved "through faith"; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: (KJV)

Let us all pray for the one that does not know that all of God's salvific blessings come through. faith.

Heb 11:6
6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. (KJV)

[ September 16, 2002, 06:50 PM: Message edited by: Chappie ]