Why did God create mankind?

[Hanna]

How is He glorified through us? I walked into the other room, where Barry is at the moment, and asked him "How is God glorified through human beings?" His answer:
"He is glorified when He expresses Himself through us; when we yield our humanity to Him."

Could that mean....when we love Him?

 

[reformedbeliever]

Reformed Believer, you are making a mistake to think hate is the opposite of love. It is not. Both are types of intense caring. The opposite of love is to ignore someone. Can you hate someone you love? Yes, you can. Love does not mean you have to feel good about someone. It's great when that happens. But love is an action verb and it means to care, to commit to someone else, regardless of your emotions one way or the other. That is why Jesus commanded us to love. It has nothing to do with feelings, but with the words and actions in our lives.

When Jesus tells me to be perfect as my Father is perfect, I understand Him to mean that I am to care for all He puts in my path, regardless of my emotions concerning them, and that I am to pray, also, for them all, and maybe especially for those who are actively trying to work against me in some way or another. I can do this. I am not perfect, but I can do this much. I don't always want to....but I can do it.

So God loves those who will never believe, all the way to hell, and then loves them for an eternity in hell... all the while just sitting in heaven and saying " Oh how I wish I was big enough to save them."

 

[reformedbeliever]

Reformed Believer, you are making a mistake to think hate is the opposite of love. It is not. Both are types of intense caring. The opposite of love is to ignore someone. Can you hate someone you love? Yes, you can. Love does not mean you have to feel good about someone. It's great when that happens. But love is an action verb and it means to care, to commit to someone else, regardless of your emotions one way or the other. That is why Jesus commanded us to love. It has nothing to do with feelings, but with the words and actions in our lives.

When Jesus tells me to be perfect as my Father is perfect, I understand Him to mean that I am to care for all He puts in my path, regardless of my emotions concerning them, and that I am to pray, also, for them all, and maybe especially for those who are actively trying to work against me in some way or another. I can do this. I am not perfect, but I can do this much. I don't always want to....but I can do it.

Talk about ripping scripture out of context! :laugh:

 

[Helen]

Could that mean....when we love Him?

Yes.

Reformedbeliever, your mocking does not change the truth of Scripture. If I have ripped something out of context, please show me where. Thank you.

Does God love those who refuse Him? He says He does....and I have this absurd tendency to believe Him....

 

[reformedbeliever]

Yes.

Reformedbeliever, your mocking does not change the truth of Scripture. If I have ripped something out of context, please show me where. Thank you.

Does God love those who refuse Him? He says He does....and I have this absurd tendency to believe Him....

How about here: When Jesus tells me to be perfect as my Father is perfect, I understand Him to mean that I am to care for all He puts in my path, regardless of my emotions concerning them, and that I am to pray, also, for them all, and maybe especially for those who are actively trying to work against me in some way or another. I can do this. I am not perfect, but I can do this much. I don't always want to....but I can do it.

Do you do it? No. Doesn't He command you to "be" perfect? The sentence does not say to strive or try to be... it says to be. The word strive is in the Bible, don't you think that would be the word of choice if that is what He meant? I think your exegesis is wrong Helen. I think that God commands us to be perfect.

 

[Helen]

How about here: When Jesus tells me to be perfect as my Father is perfect, I understand Him to mean that I am to care for all He puts in my path, regardless of my emotions concerning them, and that I am to pray, also, for them all, and maybe especially for those who are actively trying to work against me in some way or another. I can do this. I am not perfect, but I can do this much. I don't always want to....but I can do it.

Do you do it? No. Doesn't He command you to "be" perfect? The sentence does not say to strive or try to be... it says to be. The word strive is in the Bible, don't you think that would be the word of choice if that is what He meant? I think your exegesis is wrong Helen. I think that God commands us to be perfect.

I quoted the context to you. The word in the Greek means to be complete or mature, it does not mean to be without fault or sinless. Christ is commanding us to care deeply for ("Love") our enemies and pray for those who persecute us. I can do that. It does not matter whether or not I want to -- part of me being a human being is that I have the ability to subject my own desires to His commands. The lovely thing (one of them) about being born again in Him is that I also have the desire to do that. That makes it a lot easier! Not a breeze, mind you, but at least easier.

 

[reformedbeliever]

I quoted the context to you. The word in the Greek means to be complete or mature, it does not mean to be without fault or sinless. Christ is commanding us to care deeply for ("Love") our enemies and pray for those who persecute us. I can do that. It does not matter whether or not I want to -- part of me being a human being is that I have the ability to subject my own desires to His commands. The lovely thing (one of them) about being born again in Him is that I also have the desire to do that. That makes it a lot easier! Not a breeze, mind you, but at least easier.

So now you are finally mature, complete. Congrats Helen. You stated on another thread I started about your being perfect and that you never willfully sin also. I hope I get there some day. It will only be by Jesus making me that way though, not in this life.

 

[reformedbeliever]

I quoted the context to you. The word in the Greek means to be complete or mature, it does not mean to be without fault or sinless. Christ is commanding us to care deeply for ("Love") our enemies and pray for those who persecute us. I can do that. It does not matter whether or not I want to -- part of me being a human being is that I have the ability to subject my own desires to His commands. The lovely thing (one of them) about being born again in Him is that I also have the desire to do that. That makes it a lot easier! Not a breeze, mind you, but at least easier.

G5046
τέλειος
teleios
tel'-i-os
From G5056; complete (in various applications of labor, growth, mental and moral character, etc.); neuter (as noun, with G3588) completeness: - of full age, man, perfect.

Have you obtained perfection Helen? Just asking. I'm not trying to be ugly to you. I'm serious.

 

[Helen]

I am complete in Christ and in no other sense. However, the command we have been discussing is NOT about general character, and you are dragging a giant red herring across the trail (as well as setting up a straw man) to try to claim it is. Jesus put that command in the very specific passage about loving one's enemies and praying for those who persecute you. Why are you trying to change His meaning?

 

[MB]

Hi Reformedbeliever;

So God loves those who will never believe, all the way to hell, and then loves them for an eternity in hell... all the while just sitting in heaven and saying " Oh how I wish I was big enough to save them."

1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
1Ti 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Seems to me that He does Love all men all the way to Hell since it is His willing desire that they be saved.
Can you show with scripture that the reason most aren't saved is because He hates them?
MB

 

[reformedbeliever]

I quoted the context to you. The word in the Greek means to be complete or mature, it does not mean to be without fault or sinless. Christ is commanding us to care deeply for ("Love") our enemies and pray for those who persecute us. I can do that. It does not matter whether or not I want to -- part of me being a human being is that I have the ability to subject my own desires to His commands. The lovely thing (one of them) about being born again in Him is that I also have the desire to do that. That makes it a lot easier! Not a breeze, mind you, but at least easier.

So now you go to the Jails and teach and pray with the inmates? You give money to all who are in need? You never have luxuries while others are doing without? (I know you like wine). (I don't have a problem with that by the way). You know what I mean Helen. We never quite get there. I hope you don't believe you do anyway. You can argue this point further to try and prove you were not wrong... that is up to you. I hope you can see what I'm saying. God does command us to do some things knowing we can not. We have to depend upon the sovereign grace of God.

 

[Blammo]

....... God does command us to do some things knowing we can not. We have to depend upon the sovereign grace of God.

God commands us to do some things that we WILL not. I don't believe God has commanded us to do anything that we can not do.

 

[reformedbeliever]

Hi Reformedbeliever;

1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
1Ti 2:5 For thereis one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
1Ti 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Seems to me that He does Love all men all the way to Hell since it is His willing desire that they be saved.
Can you show with scripture that the reason most aren't saved is because He hates them?
MB

The *all* used in the referenced scripture means all sorts of, as it is used by Paul in 1 Tim 6:10. For the love of money is a root of all sorts of evil, and some by longing for it have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.

God does not love everyone Psalms 5:5. The boastful shall not stand before Your eyes; You hate all who do iniquity.

Proverbs 6:16-19
16 There are six things which the LORD hates, Yes, seven which are an abomination to Him:
17 Haughty eyes, a lying tongue, And hands that shed innocent blood,
18 A heart that devises wicked plans, Feet that run rapidly to evil,
19 A false witness {who} utters lies, And one who spreads strife among brothers.

Hosea 9:15 All their evil is at Gilgal; Indeed, I came to hate them there! Because of the wickedness of their deeds I will drive them out of My house! I will love them no more; All their princes are rebels.

Psalms 11:5 The LORD tests the righteous and the wicked, And the one who loves violence His soul hates.

Shall I go on? There are many more.

 

[reformedbeliever]

God commands us to do some things that we WILL not. I don't believe God has commanded us to do anything that we can not do.

OH? How about the Law? Could any keep the law perfectly? Only Jesus.

 

[Helen]

So now you go to the Jails and teach and pray with the inmates? You give money to all who are in need? You never have luxuries while others are doing without? (I know you like wine). (I don't have a problem with that by the way). You know what I mean Helen. We never quite get there. I hope you don't believe you do anyway. You can argue this point further to try and prove you were not wrong... that is up to you. I hope you can see what I'm saying. God does command us to do some things knowing we can not. We have to depend upon the sovereign grace of God.

OK, you want to do the character game with me? That is NOT what this thread is about, but I am not afraid to answer.

1. I do not go to the jails because I am a woman. However I do pray for them. We have also financially significantly helped a number of those God has put in our lives who have been in jail and are having a horrid time trying to get their lives back on track. Sometimes it has worked and sometimes we have been conned. But when God touches our hearts about someone, we give. Period.

2. Yes, compared to world standards, we have some luxuries. We have a roof over our heads. We use it for Bible studies and helping others. We have a garden where we grow a lot of our own food. We give a lot of it away. We have 1.5 acres (we didn't want that much, but the house was right for fixing so Chris could stay with us), and have used the back part for rescue animals. I have a hot tub, and that keeps me going many times when my arthritis threatens to bring me to a halt. We have only one vehicle -- well, two officially, but one actually is in the sole care of someone who needed it. I keep title so the other person does not have to pay insurance, which I pay.

3. I have an incredible husband whose sole desire is to follow and obey the Lord. That makes it extremely easy for me as his wife, for all I have to do then is abide by his decisions!

4. We have given away far more than we have ever kept to live on.

You see, God has enabled us to obey Him. He has enabled ALL of us to obey Him if we will.

Our characters are not perfect. Barry and I sin. Let's not make any mistakes in this post about that. But you were attacking my character in terms of the passage in Matthew and please forgive me for attempting to defend it if you found anything I said offensive.

 

[Helen]

reformed, you are still making the mistake of thinking that love and hate are opposites (and mutually exclusive). They are not.

 

[Helen]

OH? How about the Law? Could any keep the law perfectly? Only Jesus.

You have totally derailed Hanna's thread. NNE is asking about the law. Please let the thread get back on track.

 

[reformedbeliever]

OK, you want to do the character game with me? That is NOT what this thread is about, but I am not afraid to answer.

1. I do not go to the jails because I am a woman. However I do pray for them. We have also financially significantly helped a number of those God has put in our lives who have been in jail and are having a horrid time trying to get their lives back on track. Sometimes it has worked and sometimes we have been conned. But when God touches our hearts about someone, we give. Period.

2. Yes, compared to world standards, we have some luxuries. We have a roof over our heads. We use it for Bible studies and helping others. We have a garden where we grow a lot of our own food. We give a lot of it away. We have 1.5 acres (we didn't want that much, but the house was right for fixing so Chris could stay with us), and have used the back part for rescue animals. I have a hot tub, and that keeps me going many times when my arthritis threatens to bring me to a halt. We have only one vehicle -- well, two officially, but one actually is in the sole care of someone who needed it. I keep title so the other person does not have to pay insurance, which I pay.

3. I have an incredible husband whose sole desire is to follow and obey the Lord. That makes it extremely easy for me as his wife, for all I have to do then is abide by his decisions!

4. We have given away far more than we have ever kept to live on.

You see, God has enabled us to obey Him. He has enabled ALL of us to obey Him if we will.

Our characters are not perfect. Barry and I sin. Let's not make any mistakes in this post about that. But you were attacking my character in terms of the passage in Matthew and please forgive me for attempting to defend it if you found anything I said offensive.

You have not offended me in any way Helen, lets make that perfectly clear. Lets also make it clear that I'm not attacking you or your character. This is a debate board... isn't it? I was debating you.

I have simply tried to point out that you are not perfect, which you have now admitted. I believe that proves my point in the debate. Have a great day! Seriously.

 

[Helen]

My lack of sinlessness was never in question. You have totally distorted what was being discussed. That is a disgusting debate tactic.

 

[Blammo]

OH? How about the Law? Could any keep the law perfectly? Only Jesus.

Did any keep the law perfectly? Only Jesus.

Again, it is not that we couldn't, it is that we wouldn't. Most of your reformed friends agree with me. (I don't see how) It seems to me, you are the only one being consistent. I don't see how any calvinist could believe the unsaved truly have choices. But they keep telling me - "it is not that they can't, it is that they won't."