Why did Jesus die?

[Van]

In a recently closed thread, the issue was suggested that if God can forgive sins, why would Jesus need to die?

Can God forgive sins, and why did Jesus die?

Yes, God can forgive sins as He can have mercy on whom He pleases.​

Jesus died as God's act of mercy to provide the means of reconciliation for fallen humanity.​

The OT saints were taken to Abraham's bosom, a place of comfort, rather than the place of torment. Thus they had received mercy, but had not been allowed to enter heaven because they had not been "made perfect." To be made perfect is to be made holy and blameless by the blood of the Lamb.​

Without the shedding of blood they can be no forgiveness of sin.​

One way to put these two seemingly at odds pronouncements is to say a "temporary" forgiveness can be granted, but for an eternal forgiveness, the blood of the Lamb is required. ​

Certainly all the OT saints taken to Abraham's bosom were temporarily forgiven of their sins because they were not taken to the place of torment in Hades. But they had to wait there, to be made perfect so they had not yet been made holy and blameless.

Another indicator is that God's chosen spokespersons were influenced by the Holy Spirit such that their words were inspired, but they were not "indwelt." That promise's fulfillment had to wait until sinners underwent the washing of regeneration.

Thus the "means of reconciliation," the means of uniting of the lost sinner separated from God due to unholiness, with God required the shedding of Christ's blood, the sacrifice of His life.

 

[37818]

Certainly all the OT saints taken to Abraham's bosom . . .

Abraham's side is not the whole of Sheol's upper place aka being Paradise.

Luke 16:23, . . . in his [Abraham's] bosom.

Luke 23:43, . . . Paradise . . . .

 

[Charlie24]

In a recently closed thread, the issue was suggested that if God can forgive sins, why would Jesus need to die?

Can God forgive sins, and why did Jesus die?

Yes, God can forgive sins as He can have mercy on whom He pleases.​

Jesus died as God's act of mercy to provide the means of reconciliation for fallen humanity.​

The OT saints were taken to Abraham's bosom, a place of comfort, rather than the place of torment. Thus they had received mercy, but had not been allowed to enter heaven because they had not been "made perfect." To be made perfect is to be made holy and blameless by the blood of the Lamb.​

Without the shedding of blood they can be no forgiveness of sin.​

One way to put these two seemingly at odds pronouncements is to say a "temporary" forgiveness can be granted, but for an eternal forgiveness, the blood of the Lamb is required. ​

Certainly all the OT saints taken to Abraham's bosom were temporarily forgiven of their sins because they were not taken to the place of torment in Hades. But they had to wait there, to be made perfect so they had not yet been made holy and blameless.

Another indicator is that God's chosen spokespersons were influenced by the Holy Spirit such that their words were inspired, but they were not "indwelt." That promise's fulfillment had to wait until sinners underwent the washing of regeneration.

Thus the "means of reconciliation," the means of uniting of the lost sinner separated from God due to unholiness, with God required the shedding of Christ's blood, the sacrifice of His life.

Interesting thread! You may find this somewhat off topic, and if you do just disregard this post. For the moment, I will assume I have your permission to go forward with this.

I would like to take a look at a particular statement, "Yes, God can forgive sins as He can have mercy on whom He pleases" with an emphasis on the bold "He can have mercy on whom He pleases."

This is very much misunderstood by the good folks in the Sovereign Grace family. Let's take a look at what it really means!

Paul said this in Romans 9:15

"For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion."

Paul quoted Moses on this from Exodus 33:19,

"And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy."

Moses is having a conversation with God, and Moses will not move forward with what God told him to do until God proves His presence with him.

So God said to Moses, vs 17,

"And the Lord said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for thou hast found grace in my sight, and I know thee by name."

Now, God is allowing for Moses to actually see Him, but only His hind parts (from behind), for God told Him, you cannot see my face, you will surly die. The glory in God's face is unbearable for human flesh, the flesh would just be consumed and vanish.

Notice in this same vs.17 that God is granting Moses this request based on "for thou hast found Grace in my sight, and I know thee by name."

Moses was a believer in the shed Blood of Christ, and only by his faith is God granting him this request.

Then in vs. 19 God says to Moses, "and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy."

It is only by faith in The Blood of Christ that God will be "gracious and have mercy" on man.

God is not picking at random, or by a predestination on whom he will have mercy and grace, He has mercy and grace on those who choose to believe, as Moses did.

 

[Paleouss]

Yes, God can forgive sins as He can have mercy on whom He pleases.

Greetings Van, Thank you for your post.

Besides the obvious answer to your question, "can God forgive sins". The answer being, yes. A more pointed question, I think, would be...how did God decide to forgive sins? This way of asking the question avoids the answer of "He has mercy on whom He pleases". I am not saying that God cannot have mercy on whom he pleases. I am suggesting that God decreed "how" He would forgive and He did this to express and convey just who God is.

God decreed to show mankind, through history, that He was not only the “justifier” (Rom 3:26) but also “just” (Rom 3:26). So it was first “for judgement [Christ] came into this world” (John 9:39) to fulfill the Moral Law (Matt 5:17). For if he had not come “they would not have been guilty of sin” (John 15:22). But now that Christ has fulfilled the Law and is the completion of the Law, “now they have no excuse for their sin” (John 15:22).

So yes, God can just say "forgiven", however, He didn't choose to do it that way. At least according to the Bible. He chose, in His divine wisdom, to show forgiveness AND justice (Rom 3:26). Or more accurately, forgiveness through justice All this to show the full presence of God in His creation.

Jesus died as God's act of mercy to provide the means of reconciliation for fallen humanity.

Amen

Peace to you brother.

 

[Van]

Greetings Van, Thank you for your post.

Besides the obvious answer to your question, "can God forgive sins". The answer being, yes. A more pointed question, I think, would be...how did God decide to forgive sins? This way of asking the question avoids the answer of "He has mercy on whom He pleases". I am not saying that God cannot have mercy on whom he pleases. I am suggesting that God decreed "how" He would forgive and He did this to express and convey just who God is.

God decreed to show mankind, through history, that He was not only the “justifier” (Rom 3:26) but also “just” (Rom 3:26). So it was first “for judgement [Christ] came into this world” (John 9:39) to fulfill the Moral Law (Matt 5:17). For if he had not come “they would not have been guilty of sin” (John 15:22). But now that Christ has fulfilled the Law and is the completion of the Law, “now they have no excuse for their sin” (John 15:22).

So yes, God can just say "forgiven", however, He didn't choose to do it that way. At least according to the Bible. He chose, in His divine wisdom, to show forgiveness AND justice (Rom 3:26). Or more accurately, forgiveness through justice All this to show the full presence of God in His creation.


Amen

Peace to you brother.

And thank you for your thoughtful post!

I agree with your excellent post, God cannot violate one of His attributes (being just) when He carries out another of His attributes, (being merciful).
Yes, I know justice is perfected through mercy.

Your next point, God chose to carry out forgiveness through justice, is indeed spot one. You flipped the paradigm, He justly punishes the lost because He received the just payment for the sins of those saved. And yes, this concurs with your third point, this is the way God chose to carry out His redemption plan.

 

[Van]

Interesting thread! You may find this somewhat off topic, and if you do just disregard this post. For the moment, I will assume I have your permission to go forward with this.

I would like to take a look at a particular statement, "Yes, God can forgive sins as He can have mercy on whom He pleases" with an emphasis on the bold "He can have mercy on whom He pleases."

This is very much misunderstood by the good folks in the Sovereign Grace family. Let's take a look at what it really means!

Paul said this in Romans 9:15

"For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion."

Paul quoted Moses on this from Exodus 33:19,

"And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy."

Moses is having a conversation with God, and Moses will not move forward with what God told him to do until God proves His presence with him.

So God said to Moses, vs 17,

"And the Lord said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for thou hast found grace in my sight, and I know thee by name."

Now, God is allowing for Moses to actually see Him, but only His hind parts (from behind), for God told Him, you cannot see my face, you will surly die. The glory in God's face is unbearable for human flesh, the flesh would just be consumed and vanish.

Notice in this same vs.17 that God is granting Moses this request based on "for thou hast found Grace in my sight, and I know thee by name."

Moses was a believer in the shed Blood of Christ, and only by his faith is God granting him this request.

Then in vs. 19 God says to Moses, "and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy."

It is only by faith in The Blood of Christ that God will be "gracious and have mercy" on man.

God is not picking at random, or by a predestination on whom he will have mercy and grace, He has mercy and grace in those who choose to believe, as Moses did.

I disagree, as God had mercy on those He delivered out of Egypt. Having mercy upon someone does not require eternal salvation, it could be as simple as healing a lame person. Also, I do not see any support for the idea that Moses believed in the shed blood of Christ.

But I agree, God does not choose individuals for salvation at random and did not choose human individuals for salvation before creation, i.e. by unconditional election. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 explicitly says God chooses individuals for salvation through faith in the truth, thus a conditional election for salvation of believers.

 

[Charlie24]

I disagree, as God had mercy on those He delivered out of Egypt. Having mercy upon someone does not require eternal salvation, it could be as simple as healing a lame person. Also, I do not see any support for the idea that Moses believed in the shed blood of Christ.

But I agree, God does not choose individuals for salvation at random and did not choose human individuals for salvation before creation, i.e. by unconditional election. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 explicitly says God chooses individuals for salvation through faith in the truth, thus a conditional election for salvation of believers.

They had a better understanding of the Blood of Christ than we do! The animal sacrifice represented Christ.

They practiced the sacrificing of an animal, and knew every detail of what was done with the animal parts, and what it meant.

We only read about it!

Plus, we have proof they knew the Gospel, and I'm pretty sure they had a better foundation of understanding than we have.

The Gospel of Christ was no strange thing to them!

Heb. 4:2

"For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it."

 

[JesusFan]

I disagree, as God had mercy on those He delivered out of Egypt. Having mercy upon someone does not require eternal salvation, it could be as simple as healing a lame person. Also, I do not see any support for the idea that Moses believed in the shed blood of Christ.

But I agree, God does not choose individuals for salvation at random and did not choose human individuals for salvation before creation, i.e. by unconditional election. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 explicitly says God chooses individuals for salvation through faith in the truth, thus a conditional election for salvation of believers.

Except those whom he has reddemed were chosen by the father to be in the beloved Son before foundation of the world, so it is individual election unto salvation

 

[JesusFan]

In a recently closed thread, the issue was suggested that if God can forgive sins, why would Jesus need to die?

Can God forgive sins, and why did Jesus die?

Yes, God can forgive sins as He can have mercy on whom He pleases.​

Jesus died as God's act of mercy to provide the means of reconciliation for fallen humanity.​

The OT saints were taken to Abraham's bosom, a place of comfort, rather than the place of torment. Thus they had received mercy, but had not been allowed to enter heaven because they had not been "made perfect." To be made perfect is to be made holy and blameless by the blood of the Lamb.​

Without the shedding of blood they can be no forgiveness of sin.​

One way to put these two seemingly at odds pronouncements is to say a "temporary" forgiveness can be granted, but for an eternal forgiveness, the blood of the Lamb is required. ​

Certainly all the OT saints taken to Abraham's bosom were temporarily forgiven of their sins because they were not taken to the place of torment in Hades. But they had to wait there, to be made perfect so they had not yet been made holy and blameless.

Another indicator is that God's chosen spokespersons were influenced by the Holy Spirit such that their words were inspired, but they were not "indwelt." That promise's fulfillment had to wait until sinners underwent the washing of regeneration.

Thus the "means of reconciliation," the means of uniting of the lost sinner separated from God due to unholiness, with God required the shedding of Christ's blood, the sacrifice of His life.

God cannot forgive our sins just by wishing it to be so , or desiring it, as our sins must be atoned for, our sin dent needs to be paid by someone else to God if not ourselves

 

[Van]

They had a better understanding of the Blood of Christ than we do! The animal sacrifice represented Christ.

They practiced the sacrificing of an animal, and knew every detail of what was done with the animal parts, and what it meant.

We only read about it!

Plus, we have proof they knew the Gospel, and I'm pretty sure they had a better foundation of understanding than we have.

The Gospel of Christ was no strange thing to them!

Heb. 4:2

"For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it."

Lets see if we better pinpoint where we part company. Hebrews 4:2 is indeed referring to those Moses brought out of Egypt. They believed in God and trusted Moses to take them to the promised land. But nearly all them lost faith and expressed doubt and unbelief. See Numbers 13-15 and the revolt at Kadesh Barnea. They (all those over age 20) wandered and died in the wilderness.

So they did not believe or lost their belief in the promises of God, rather than failed to believe in what was a mystery at that time.

I believe the correct biblical view is those who did obtain mercy went to Abraham's bosom, where they had to wait to be made perfect until after Christ sacrificed His blood.

Last point concerns "mixed with faith." Since they believed at first, but then fell away, the attribute of "faith" that was missing was heart-felt, deeply rooted commit to God, no matter the earthly cost. Same missing component as in Soils #2 and 3 in Matthew 13.

 

[Van]

God cannot forgive our sins just by wishing it to be so , or desiring it, as our sins must be atoned for, our sin dent needs to be paid by someone else to God if not ourselves

Pure fiction. Did Jesus say, before He died on the cross, "your sins are forgiven?" Yes indeed!

See Matthew 9:2 and Matthew 9:5, Mark 2:5 and Mark 2:9, Luke 5:20, Luke 5:23 and Luke 7:47.

How about Psalm 32:1?

 

[JesusFan]

Pure fiction. Did Jesus say, before He died on the cross, "your sins are forgiven?" Yes indeed!

See Matthew 9:2 and Matthew 9:5, Mark 2:5 and Mark 2:9, Luke 5:20 and Luke 5:23.

How about Psalm 32:1?

Because of His atoning death upon that Cross as providing the basis to permit Him to have them forgiven

 

[Van]

Because of His atoning death upon that Cross as providing the basis to permit Him to have them forgiven

Just more of your unstudied "time travel" theology, wholly made up by people, and a complete fiction.

As I have pointed out time and time again, if the OT saints had gone directly to heaven, your view would be viable, but since they had to wait to be made perfect, your view is unstudied nonsense.

 

[JesusFan]

Just more of your unstudied "time travel" theology, wholly made up by people, and a complete fiction.

As I have pointed out time and time again, if the OT saints had gone directly to heaven, your view would be viable, but since they had to wait to be made perfect, your view is unstudied nonsense.

ALL ever saved by the grace of God was on the basis of the Cross of Christ

 

[Charlie24]

Lets see if we better pinpoint where we part company. Hebrews 4:2 is indeed referring to those Moses brought out of Egypt. They believed in God and trusted Moses to take them to the promised land. But nearly all them lost faith and expressed doubt and unbelief. See Numbers 13-15 and the revolt at Kadesh Barnea. They (all those over age 20) wandered and died in the wilderness.

So they did not believe or lost their belief in the promises of God, rather than failed to believe in what was a mystery at that time.

I believe the correct biblical view is those who did obtain mercy went to Abraham's bosom, where they had to wait to be made perfect until after Christ sacrificed His blood.

Last point concerns "mixed with faith." Since they believed at first, but then fell away, the attribute of "faith" that was missing was heart-felt, deeply rooted commit to God, no matter the earthly cost. Same missing component as in Soils #2 and 3 in Matthew 13.

These Hebrews are the very same persons who covered their doorposts with Blood when the angel of Death came to Egypt.

They were saved and knew what that Blood meant. But they began to rebel against God and lost that faith.

The reason the author Hebrews told the 1st century believing Jews, not to make the mistake they made.

Heb. 3:14

"For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;"

 

[Van]

ALL ever saved by the grace of God was on the basis of the Cross of Christ

More nonsense, more evasion, more running for the truth.

Did this poster acknowledge that God can forgiven sin? Nope

Did this poster acknowledge the difference between receiving mercy and being justified by the blood of the Lamb? Nope

 

[Van]

These Hebrews are the very same persons who covered their doorposts with Blood when the angel of Death came to Egypt.

They were saved and knew what that Blood meant. But they began to rebel against God and lost that faith.

The reason the author Hebrews told the 1st century believing Jews, not to make the mistake they made.

Heb. 3:14

"For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;"

I do not see any way to bridge our gap in understanding. I say "A" and you address "B."

I said the Hebrews initially believed but fell away. Did you address that? Nope.

Did you address those such as Joshua that held stedfast until the end? Nope

 

[Charlie24]

I do not see any way to bridge our gap in understand. I say "A" and you address "B."

I said the Hebrews initially believed but fell away. Did you address that? Nope.

Did you address those such as Joshua that held stedfast until the end? Nope

Come on, Van! I plainly showed you how they fell away and the warning they were given.

Of the estimated 1-3 million Jews who left Egypt, only 3 were saved in the end.

The rest perished in the wilderness and did not enter into God's rest, as the author said.

 

[Charlie24]

Come on, Van! I plainly showed you how they fell away and the warning they were given.

Of the estimated 1-3 million Jews who left Egypt, only 3 were saved in the end.

The rest perished in the wilderness and did not enter into God's rest, as the author said.

Let me clarify, i know you're picky.

It was only Moses, Joshua, and Caleb that were saved in the end.

But their families were also saved, which added to the number, if you want to get technical.

 

[37818]

It was only Moses, Joshua, and Caleb that were saved in the end.

What of Moses' brother?