Why did Jesus make wine?

[Allan]

I see your points but you like us are drawing conclusions that are not specifically spelled out in this passage. This is what theological debate does. One implication is that it was the "Fathers Will" this party needed another few hundred gallons of wine.

Depends on how you understand the term 'wine' . But, Yes God desired Jesus to do exactly what He did.

It appears the word "miracle" fills in all the gaps in the above list of facts. I believe the Bible is without error. I also think there are times we cause the error by mis-understanding text/times etc...

Ok, and your point here is...?

My suggestion was this, he had began calling disciples etc... so we know something was about to begin or his life was now changing.

He is baptized and confirmed at the Jordan by the Father, he is tested in the wilderness yet didn't sin then he goes to this wedding and makes wine. I am suggesting the previous two incidents (baptism and wilderness testing) separated his previous 30 years from the next 3 years. This was the intent in calling disciples. Whatever he was for the last 30 years, he is no longer that but is now something new for the next 3 years (we can debate titles later). And this is the first miracle in the period of the next 3 years which is separate from His previous 30 years of life. Thoughts?

There was a distinction from THIS point in His life and the last 30 years, since He was beginning His ministry.

Lest we forget, and postulate all manner of things regarding Jesus early life till now. We must remember that Miracles and signs were done to authenticate both the message being given and it's messenger being from and approved by God Himself. Where scripture is silent on the life Jesus, it would be a very dangerous thing to postulate as though we are God (all-knowing) that Christ MUST HAVE done this or that for whatever reasons, when God Himself is silent on the issue.

What we do know scripturally is that ALL signs and miracles were done to authenticate BOTH a message and the messenger being from God. Since Jesus did not begin His ministry, and therefore giving of His message, until after His baptism we see that bibilcally it stands to reason THIS is the beginning of the 'recordings' of Jesus miracles because NOW they are beginning.

Otherwise the Jewish people would have already known Him (or about Him - yet is only known as the Carpenters son) to be of great power and miracle worker. IF ANYONE knew of Him doing a miracle, He would have had fame and word spead concerning this person/child/youth. He would have been revered by the people to be their long awaited Prophet/Messiah and armies raised for His protection. But no one knew anything about Him (NOT EVEN HIS MOTHER) in that context. They knew He was special (Mary pondered the sayings of the Angel in heart because she did not understand; also when Jesus was 12 at the Temple and Mary and Joseph went to find Him being at the Temple. Mary AGAIN pondered these things in her heart - 12 years after the Angel) but no one knew WHO He was until AFTER the Resurrection when He revealed it fully to them.

 

[Allan]

Actually, His ministry began much earlier than that. His ministry began at twelve years of age when He was in the temple reading Scripture.

What? Know ye not that I must be about my Father's business?

This does not establish His ministry. He is obeying His Father, but that does not necessitate that He began His ministry at 12. It would be a rather poor if not pathetic ministry indeed for Him to still be considered no one of religious importance to anyone till 30.

 

[Allan]

John chapter 2
The reason why Mary told them "whatsoever He saith unto you, do it" is because she knew He was/is the Son of God. She had to, because she gave birth to Him. She knew He was conceived from "on High", of a heavenly seed, not earthly. This is the first "recorded" miracle by Him, and in verse 11 it says it was the beginning of miracles. We can speculate anything and everything, but we have "facts" that this WAS the beginning of miracles. Prior to this the people only knew Him as Jesus, son of Joseph. When He turned the water into wine, it showed that He was/is much more than that.

Unfortunately Mary did not know who Jesus was. And the scriptures report it this way. You will note that she always pondered (wondered about) these things in her heart.

She, just like the disciples did not Know who He was until after His resurrection when He revealed all truth to them all. Remember - she thought He was dead after the crusifiction. I would find it odd that she KNEW He to be God and thought He was dead, wouldn't you?
Yes, she knew something was special about Him. But not that she understood who He really was and what He could do.

The fact she tells the serants to obey Jesus does not support the fact she expected Him to do a miracle. See my earlier posts on this.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. (Luke 1:35)

Mary knew who Jesus was. To say she did not is nothing less than ridiculous.

And whence [is] this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? (Luke 1:43)

Elizabeth recognized the fact that Mary carried the Lord when Mary visited Elizabeth.

 

[Allan]

And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. (Luke 1:35)

Mary knew who Jesus was. To say she did not is nothing less than ridiculous.

And whence [is] this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? (Luke 1:43)

Elizabeth recognized the fact that Mary carried the Lord when Mary visited Elizabeth.

So you contend that that Mary KNEW as did Elizabeth that Jesus was God.
THAT is non-sensical (or ridiculous as you like to state). Given that no man knew who He truly was until AFTER the resurrection.

Please reseach what the term Son of God can mean.
Hint - it is not just the Divine. :smilewinkgrin:

Elizabeth declared "Lord" NOT because she Knew it was God but that He was to be the Messiah and therefore King of Israel. Which by classification would necessitate the terminology of calling Him - Lord.

Mary pondered these things (meaning she wondered what they meant - doesn't sound like she is so sure.), and to say she KNEW who He truely was and therefore necessate she also knew what He would do. She should have proclaimed the loudest over His disciples the truth of who her child was. But she did not know either. Otherwise why did she not know He would rise from the dead if she knew He was divine or God Himself?

 

[standingfirminChrist]

You must not believe the Word of God in the matter. Because it says Elizabeth recognzed Mary as the mother of her Lord before Jesus was born.

Mary was told directly by the angel that the child would be the Son of God.

I have already shown you the Scripture.

There are sons of God... angels and men, and then there is the Son of God. Wheneve Son of God is used with a capital "S", it is speaking of the Lord Jesus Christ and His Diety.

 

[LeBuick]

I have to agree with SFIC on this, the angel told them wo was in their wombs. Not only did they know, their husbands were told and the wise men knew.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost. (Matthew 1:20)

Even Joseph the Carpenter knew once the angel visited him in a dream the child was conceived of the Holy Ghost and therefore was a Deity .

 

[Allan]

You must not believe the Word of God in the matter. Because it says Elizabeth recognzed Mary as the mother of her Lord before Jesus was born.

Mary was told directly by the angel that the child would be the Son of God.

I have already shown you the Scripture.

There are sons of God... angels and men, and then there is the Son of God. Wheneve Son of God is used with a capital "S", it is speaking of the Lord Jesus Christ and His Diety.

Unfortunately my friend it does not appear to be capitialized in the Greek
Look, I can show you in different bibles were not all the words of Christ are in red, and where there is not capitialization where there should be. However, you do know that everytime the term Son of God is used regarding Christ it MUST be capitalized since it is a title right? Whether it be for the Messianic Title, Divine Title, or Man of God Title - it is still going to be capitalized.

OF course He is called the Son of God by the Angel, I did not dispute that now did I? Be honest.

I already explained about the Elizabeth and the term 'Lord' which she used. If you will look at the entire conversation of the Angel with Mary you will see it is speaking of Messianic Kingship (Davidic) and when Mary told Elizabeth OF THESE THINGS (heard the greeting of Mary - or - was told by Mary those things at their greeting) The babe lept and she declared ..."mother of my Lord".

The term son of God though the translators afix the capitalization to the title for our benifit denoting the Truth of Christ, it does not change the fact that son of God also implies Man of God and ALSO a Messianic title!

Now, tell me this. IF Mary KNEW who Jesus was (divine God in flesh):
1. Why does scripture state:

Luk 2:19 But Mary kept all these things, and pondered [them] in her heart.

Luk 2:49 And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business?
Luk 2:50 And they understood not the saying which he spake unto them.

Why did she ponder, how could she and Joseph not know what Jesus was talking about? They knew didn't they.

2. Why did she think He could die? If she knew He was God in the flesh and that being God He will rise again, then why did she think He was dead for good?

 

[Allan]

But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost. (Matthew 1:20)

Even Joseph the Carpenter knew once the angel visited him in a dream the child was conceived of the Holy Ghost and therefore was a Deity .

YOu are speculating WILDLY.

The fact that God can do create a child in a woman without a man does not necessitate that child is divine any more than God taking the rocks and making a man make him superhuman.

The only thing THEY understood was that this was Gods doing by His Spirit. Not that God was being made flesh in Mary.
Again look at scripture:

Luk 2:49 And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business?
Luk 2:50 And they understood not the saying which he spake unto them.
Luk 2:51 ¶ And he went down with them, and came to Nazareth, and was subject unto them: but his mother kept all these sayings in her heart.

Apparently they DID NOT KNOW.

 

[Allan]

I have to agree with SFIC on this, the angel told them wo was in their wombs. Not only did they know, their husbands were told and the wise men knew.

Being a Jew who is looking for the comming Messiah what would this sound like to you.

Luk 1:30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
Luk 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
Luk 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
Luk 1:33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

Being that all of the above are speaking of the comming Messiah, King of Israel, a Man of God (Son of God), a Son (child) of the Hightest, what would you conclude?
That God in flesh is coming? Is that what the Jews understood those prophesies as meaning?

Remember, His mission was veiled till all be fulfilled. Otherwise if it was not veiled as to who He specifically was, what do you think would have happened?

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Allan, you need to go study some more and then come back and comment on Mary and what she knew.

The Greek word for pondered is "sumballo" and does not mean 'wondered about these things' as you claim. It means she "considered" them. It is not that she did not believe the angel at all. The angel told her the child born would be called the Son of God.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Being a Jew who is looking for the comming Messiah what would this sound like to you.

Being that all of the above are speaking of the comming Messiah, King of Israel, a Man of God (Son of God), a Son (child) of the Hightest, what would you conclude?
That God in flesh is coming? Is that what the Jews understood those prophesies as meaning?

Remember, His mission was veiled till all be fulfilled. Otherwise if it was not veiled as to who He specifically was, what do you think would have happened?

Christ's mission was not veiled. Why do you think Herod tried to have Him killed?
Jesus' mission was foretold hundreds of years before by the Prophets.

Start another thread, Allan. This one is about Christ's miracle at the wedding of Cana, not Christ's birth.

 

[Allan]

Allan, you need to go study some more and then come back and comment on Mary and what she knew.

The Greek word for pondered is "sumballo" and does not mean 'wondered about these things' as you claim. It means she "considered" them. It is not that she did not believe the angel at all. The angel told her the child born would be called the Son of God.

And it differs HOW exactly?

Wondered about them - or considered them. Same thing. :laugh:

 

[Linda64]

Luke 1:34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
Luke 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
Luke 1:36 And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren.
Luke 1:37 For with God nothing shall be impossible.
Luke 1:38 And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her.
Luke 1:39 And Mary arose in those days, and went into the hill country with haste, into a city of Juda;
Luke 1:40 And entered into the house of Zacharias, and saluted Elisabeth.
Luke 1:41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:
Luke 1:42 And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.
Luke 1:43 And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?
Luke 1:44 For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy.

...when Mary told Elizabeth OF THESE THINGS (heard the greeting of Mary - or - was told by Mary those things at their greeting) The babe lept and she declared ..."mother of my Lord".

Where does it say "Mary told Elizabeth OF THESE THINGS"? In Luke 1:41 it says "When Elizabeth heard the SALUTATION of Mary"--we don't know what that salutation was and it is wrong for anybody to speculate.

 

[Allan]

Christ's mission was not veiled. Why do you think Herod tried to have Him killed?
Jesus' mission was foretold hundreds of years before by the Prophets.

Start another thread, Allan. This one is about Christ's miracle at the wedding of Cana, not Christ's birth.

Herod did not try to Kill Jesus because He was God in the flesh. But because of the Messianic Prophesies about a coming King of Israel. Same as I have been saying.

So everyone knew who Jesus was and His coming to die for our sins and rise again?

You are the one continuing on about whether Mary and Joseph and now Herod KNEW who Jesus was - God in the Flesh.

 

[Allan]

Luke 1:34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
Luke 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
Luke 1:36 And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren.
Luke 1:37 For with God nothing shall be impossible.
Luke 1:38 And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her.
Luke 1:39 And Mary arose in those days, and went into the hill country with haste, into a city of Juda;
Luke 1:40 And entered into the house of Zacharias, and saluted Elisabeth.
Luke 1:41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:
Luke 1:42 And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.
Luke 1:43 And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?
Luke 1:44 For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy.

Where does it say "Mary told Elizabeth OF THESE THINGS"? In Luke 1:41 it says "When Elizabeth heard the SALUTATION of Mary"--we don't know what that salutation was and it is wrong for anybody to speculate.

Luke 1:41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:

A salutation is not just a greeting "Hey cuz" but encompasses the person talking about things (whether short or long winded ) and the manner of that presented (joyful, frightening, glad, et...) Like in Luke 1

Luk 1:29 And when she saw [him], she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be.

At which point the Angel tells her the salutation of why he has come to her.

We see this same thing in Elizabeths own words regarding the salutation of Mary:

Luk 1:44 For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy.

And then we see Mary apparently told her something about what the Angel said;

Luk 1:45 And blessed [is] she that believed: for there shall be a performance of those things which were told her from the Lord.

 

[Allan]

Anyway, I have said my peace. You all enjoy. :wavey:

 

[David Lamb]

Please reseach what the term Son of God can mean.
Hint - it is not just the Divine. :smilewinkgrin:

Even the enemies of Jesus seem to have understood what the idea of Jesus being the Son of God implied, as we see in John 10.30-33:

30 (Jesus said) "I and My Father are one."
31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him.
32 Jesus answered them, "Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?"
33 The Jews answered Him, saying, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God."​

 

[Allan]

Even the enemies of Jesus seem to have understood what the idea of Jesus being the Son of God implied, as we see in John 10.30-33:

30 (Jesus said) "I and My Father are one."
31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him.
32 Jesus answered them, "Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?"
33 The Jews answered Him, saying, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God."​

According to your quote my friend the 'term' Son of God is no where in this. Jesus DECLARED Him to the same as the Father.
It does not state:
31 Jesus said "I am the Son of God" (sic)
32 Then the Jews took up stones again to Him.
et...