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Why did Solomon havea weakness?
- Thread starter UnchartedSpirit
- Start date
Calvibaptist
New Member
Well, Petrel, let's take it your way then...
God raised up Samson to deliver the Israelites (because that is what the Bible says - God raised up judges). But God didn't really have any control over whether Samson's mom and dad would even have sex and get pregnant, because that was all a free-will decision on their part. It was God's desire for Samson to be born, but that tricky Manoah and his wife could have blown it all if they just didn't have sex.
And then, God wasn't sure, but He hoped that Manoah and his wife wouldn't cut little boy Samson's hair as he was growing up. But, of course, they could have, because of their free will, not obeyed God and the entirety of chapters 13-16 of Judges would have never been written even though the Word of God abides forever.
And what if Samson slipped, got his long hair caught on a branch, and some of it was ripped out or torn. God's whole desire to free the Israelites would have been messed up and the Phillistines would have occupied Palestine when the Romans took over, and there would have been no Jewish nation or Jewish Kings, no line of David and no Messiah.
Oh, no. What is poor God to do? If I read the story and don't see God in control, I think, "Whew! What luck that Samson decided right so that God's desire got fulfilled by all-powerful man."
God raised up Samson to deliver the Israelites (because that is what the Bible says - God raised up judges). But God didn't really have any control over whether Samson's mom and dad would even have sex and get pregnant, because that was all a free-will decision on their part. It was God's desire for Samson to be born, but that tricky Manoah and his wife could have blown it all if they just didn't have sex.
And then, God wasn't sure, but He hoped that Manoah and his wife wouldn't cut little boy Samson's hair as he was growing up. But, of course, they could have, because of their free will, not obeyed God and the entirety of chapters 13-16 of Judges would have never been written even though the Word of God abides forever.
And what if Samson slipped, got his long hair caught on a branch, and some of it was ripped out or torn. God's whole desire to free the Israelites would have been messed up and the Phillistines would have occupied Palestine when the Romans took over, and there would have been no Jewish nation or Jewish Kings, no line of David and no Messiah.
Oh, no. What is poor God to do? If I read the story and don't see God in control, I think, "Whew! What luck that Samson decided right so that God's desire got fulfilled by all-powerful man."
Calvibaptist
New Member
I tried not to turn this into a Calvinist-Arminian debate, but it is inevitable.
Here is the difference between Calvinism and every other view: Every other view is afraid of infringing on the right of men to make free-will decisions. Calvinism is afraid of denying the right of God to sovereignly control everything.
Here is the difference between Calvinism and every other view: Every other view is afraid of infringing on the right of men to make free-will decisions. Calvinism is afraid of denying the right of God to sovereignly control everything.
Calvibaptist
New Member
You forget that the Bible is not a story about man. It is the revelation about God. It is all about God. It begins with God. It ends with God. The middle sections are about God. Does it talk about man? Of course, but only to reveal more about God. The Bible is not an anthropology book. It is a Theology book.
God ordains both ends and means, so both are important in every case.
The mystery of the Bible is that God is sovereign and we are also responsible for our choices. Calvinism does not try to answer the question of how it works. Calvinism just says that, though the two co-exist, God's sovereignty always trumps man's will.
Although we can learn a lot about keeping vows, this is not a lesson about keeping vows. It is a lesson about the faithfulness of God to his people despite their own sinfulness and the sovereignty of God that allows him to take what is a bad situation and turn it out for good. It is all about God.
The Bible is not a list of fables written by Aesop. It is a book of stories written by people under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. We should stop using it as inspiration illustrations and lessons on life (although there are many in there).
God's decisions are never arbitrary. We do not know the why of God's decisions, but we know that they flow from His character.
I'm aware that the Bible is not solely about people and not solely for personal instruction, but my point is that the story of Samson doesn't give us any useful information about why this happened to Samson, it doesn't give any clue that he might have avoided this situation, and it doesn't give any reason for why God worked this way. It's about as instructive as Lemony Snicket's Series of Unfortunate Events. Just a string of bad luck with a bit of human maliciousness thrown in.
It seems contradictory for a Calvinist to say that God's decisions are never arbitrary--Jacob I loved and Esua I hated, you know.
And how does this demonstrate faithfulness? I think faithfulness would be more evidenced if God didn't say, "Oops, your hair is too short. No strength for you!" in spite of Samson pleading, "Hey! Hey! I didn't cut it!"
It seems contradictory for a Calvinist to say that God's decisions are never arbitrary--Jacob I loved and Esua I hated, you know.
And how does this demonstrate faithfulness? I think faithfulness would be more evidenced if God didn't say, "Oops, your hair is too short. No strength for you!" in spite of Samson pleading, "Hey! Hey! I didn't cut it!"
Calvibaptist
New Member
God's decisions are never arbitrary because they are based on God's character. Note that this is true only if you take the primary meaning of the word arbitrary - Determined by chance, whim, or impulse, and not by necessity, reason, or principle. God's decisions are based on principle. We might not know what that principle is, but that doesn't mean it is arbitrary.
God promised the Israelites, through Moses, they would be punished for sin. They were punished for sin. God promised the Israelites, through Moses, that when they called out to Him, He would deliver them. When the Israelites called out to God, He raised up judges to deliver them. God promised Manoah and his wife that through their son, Samson, He would begin to deliver Israel out of the hand of the Philistines. Through Samson, God began delivering people out of the hand of the Philistines. The story is ultimately about the faithfulness of God despite the unfaithfulness of his servants.
If Samson had his hair cut in some other way and some other time and had not been in the Philistine temple in order to pull the columns down, God would not have been faithful to His promises. But God, using the sins of Samson, maneuvered things so that Samson was right where God wanted him to be right when He wanted him to be there. And God is seen as faithful to His promises and His people.
And yet, God chose to have the story play out and be written down in this way, not in your hypothetical way. I am not saying we, I especially, know why God does things the way He does. The only answer the Bible gives us is that He works all things according to the counsel of His will to the praise of the glory of His grace.
BTW, in the promise to Manoah and his wife, the issue was not who cut Samson's hair, but whether it was ever cut or not.
Calvibaptist
New Member
BTW, I am not saying that we can't learn about life from this story. We learn about the importance of being completely obedient. We learn about the importance of not being unequally yoked. We learn about the danger of pride. We learn about the danger of letting our guard down. We learn about repentance, forgiveness, and second chances. We learn all these things. But, ultimately, we learn about the faithfulness of God.
I was thinking about this and once I passed a certain roadblock I found that the story does make sense, although not the sort of sense we'd like it to make. I've been thinking about the hair as a sort of quid pro quo deal--you don't cut your hair and I will give you strength.
This doesn't make sense because in this case it's sort of like if God was an especially mean person who took this guy out on a boat in shark-infested waters, set him adrift with food and water in an inflateable raft with food and water and a cell phone, and said, "If your house value remains the same or goes up, you can keep the raft. If it goes down, I'll shoot the raft full of holes." It's a situation in which he has partial control, but not total. So the guy does his best--calls his wife, tells her to paint the house and have the kitchen remodeled, but then it ends up a toxic waste dump is buried next door and the property value plummets. Shark food.
In actuality the impression the story give is nothing like that. The strength does not come from God, it comes from the hair. It is a magical talisman of sorts. There is no consciousness behind it monitoring Samson and making sure he is worthy. God just gives him the talisman and then goes off and does something else. Samson is left with his talisman to do as he likes. He ends up doing all sorts of unethical things including murder for spite and torturing animals. In the end he is overthrown due to his own carelessness and God makes a curtain call to let him kill a bunch of Philistines. The story is really pretty much all about Samson--he is the classical tragic hero.
This doesn't make sense because in this case it's sort of like if God was an especially mean person who took this guy out on a boat in shark-infested waters, set him adrift with food and water in an inflateable raft with food and water and a cell phone, and said, "If your house value remains the same or goes up, you can keep the raft. If it goes down, I'll shoot the raft full of holes." It's a situation in which he has partial control, but not total. So the guy does his best--calls his wife, tells her to paint the house and have the kitchen remodeled, but then it ends up a toxic waste dump is buried next door and the property value plummets. Shark food.
In actuality the impression the story give is nothing like that. The strength does not come from God, it comes from the hair. It is a magical talisman of sorts. There is no consciousness behind it monitoring Samson and making sure he is worthy. God just gives him the talisman and then goes off and does something else. Samson is left with his talisman to do as he likes. He ends up doing all sorts of unethical things including murder for spite and torturing animals. In the end he is overthrown due to his own carelessness and God makes a curtain call to let him kill a bunch of Philistines. The story is really pretty much all about Samson--he is the classical tragic hero.
Well how about if he was innocently asleep at home and someone decided to pull a prank on him and cut off his hair. If Delilah could run several practice runs where she tied him up in his sleep, someone creeping into his tent wouldn't wake him. </font>[/QUOTE]As far as I know The Holy Spirit does not sleep. As long as Samson kept his vow as a Nazarite, and had Faith, there was nothing that could touch him, unless he wished. I believe Samson lost his strength because he thought he had lost it. He no longer had faith in God, but in his hair. At the end though he prayed, and asked God just this one more time. When one of God’s children asked their God in faith for something, they got it.
The Bible doesn’t tell us whether Samson’s hair grew back, but it wouldn’t make any difference. It was through faith in God (Hebrews 11:32) that Samson asked, knowing the Power of the Holy Ghost would return to avenge his two eyes.
It is hard for we today to understand, or admit, the connection that God had, and will have with His People. When God dealt directly with His people, and they obeyed, they were untouchable.
Christian faith, ituttut
This remark, brother, is the exact reason why I have to stay off of the Baptist Board for days at a time, sometimes weeks.
Yes, I read that verse, long before this discussion ever came up or before you posted it here. In my opinion, in the context of the story, he loved her in the flesh.
Hmmmm....some do. You know...."why buy the cow?"....
Nope. I never said that. In fact I said more than once that these relationships were not about love at all.
How sad.
I never said that he was stupid. What??
My post was not to berate Samson or Solomon for that matter. My post was written to refute your position that these men were failures because they "loved" too much. You made them sound to be the great romantic leads of the bible.....and they weren't.
I'd be interested in that sermonette.
No, if you read the passage again, you will see that he told her because the nagged him about "unto death".
He was fed up - he couldn't take anymore.
You have romanticized this story waaaayyy too much.
She wasn't his "wife". That's immoral.
She was paid to have sex with him and to deceive him. That's immoral.
Do you honestly believe it is possible for man to fall in love with 1000 women? There are some of those women that he never even met. It wasn't love that turned the heart and that is not what Deuteronomy is talking about.
Wait a minute. What are you talking about?
Are you talking about love between a married man and a woman that represents the holy bond between Christ and the church?
Or are you talking about sex between people who just have a "relationship"?
I think you and I are talking about two different things here.
And I think we have been the whole time.
Peace-
Scarlett O.
<><
This remark, brother, is the exact reason why I have to stay off of the Baptist Board for days at a time, sometimes weeks.
</font>[/QUOTE]Missed this as no reference at beginning addressed to me.
But why umbrage as you are a woman and think like a woman. I’ve been married 56 years, and I know my wife thinks as she is, and that is as a woman. If you tell me I think like a man, am I to have my feelings hurt? In this case you spoke without “stating” the facts, and then you blame me for this failure in some way causing your withdrawal. I apologize for I thought after three thousand posts you would have meet up with a “bozo” like me, and just ignore the way men think.
Yes, I read that verse, long before this discussion ever came up or before you posted it here. In my opinion, in the context of the story, he loved her in the flesh.
</font>[/QUOTE]I again apologize for my lack of understanding, as I could only go on what you told me, and am sorry I made the observation.
Hmmmm....some do. You know...."why buy the cow?"....
</font>[/QUOTE]When men stay in a relationship, a wife is born.
Nope. I never said that. In fact I said more than once that these relationships were not about love at all.
</font>[/QUOTE]Uh,um ……..So you did. But I see Samson loved, but the women which are not required to, may not at first. But as you say as time went on the women found other things more valuable to them than love, so it did not come to them. Touché.
How sad.
</font>[/QUOTE]Yes, but the fact remains we do not find God requires this of women, but should come to love them. The woman of God will be in subjection, showing respect to their lord, ”For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands: 6. Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement”, I Peter 3:5-6. A “quaint” custom of the day, or desire to please her husband?
These are not my sayings, but show the man and woman are “geared” differently, and God said “man” this is your role, and “woman” this is your role. We Christians act out our roles as prescribed by God.
I never said that he was stupid. </font>[/QUOTE]Said? No, but implied, Yes. I believe Samson did love Delilah, and this is the reason he told her; not because he was stupid enough just to tell her. I see He was blind with love.
What??
My post was not to berate Samson or Solomon for that matter. My post was written to refute your position that these men were failures because they "loved" too much. You made them sound to be the great romantic leads of the bible.....and they weren't.
</font>[/QUOTE]I only queued on your remark – “And on Samson's end, it was motivated by sex. She tried to trick him three times and three times he knew that she was turning him over to be killed. He knew that she didn't love him and he apparently did not care. Why on earth not?? I think you can figure that out.” You say he is a sex fiend, and I say he was in love.
I will give you though, Samson was strong, but very weak and child like in many ways.
I'd be interested in that sermonette.
</font>[/QUOTE]Both Nazarenes , rejected of their people; Births foretold by angels, empowered by the Holy Spirit. Both Judges, and they gave their lives, but for different reasons.
No, if you read the passage again, you will see that he told her because the nagged him about "unto death".
He was fed up - he couldn't take anymore.
</font>[/QUOTE]But she never invoked the word “love” until later toward the end. I don’t believe he would have stayed around that long, and would have tired of the “game” they played, but “love” did him in.
You have romanticized this story waaaayyy too much.
</font>[/QUOTE]I suppose there is a little “Don Juan” in all we men, and we are told to love (inbounds of course). God loved Solomon, Samson, and all. I guess it shows, that I’m in love with Christ Jesus.
She wasn't his "wife". That's immoral.
</font>[/QUOTE]He was married to her in the eyes of God, and would he have taken here to “wife” had things turned out differently? I don’t know. Perhaps we don’t understand all about “immorality” as we judge these sinners. I’m going to leave that up to Him. Samson is listed with David “by” faith. Who was the “apple of God’s eye” but the immoral David you say. I’ll not try to condemn these three forgiven great men of God -- David, Solomon, or Samson, these that God chose to rule over His people in their life time.
It’s as I said in the beginning. She is of her mother Eve. She will be judged, just as those of their father Adam. He will see we all get our just dues.
Do you honestly believe it is possible for man to fall in love with 1000 women? There are some of those women that he never even met. It wasn't love that turned the heart and that is not what Deuteronomy is talking about.
</font>[/QUOTE]Not in Deuteronomy, but found in I Kings 11:2-3, ”Of the nations concerning which the Lord said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall not go in to them, neither shall they come in unto you: for surely they will turn away your heart after their gods: Solomon clave unto these in love. 3. And he had seven hundred wives, princesses, and three hundred concubines: and his wives turned away his heart.”
Wait a minute. What are you talking about?
</font>[/QUOTE]Our subject of covetousness, lust resulting in the I Kings reference above. Idol worship will led us to lust, and lust will lead to idol worship.
My turn to way say, What? I didn’t think it necessary to point out legitimate lust, and illegitimate lust. In just about everything there can be good and bad. It was good if they lusted after food, wine, hard liquor, cattle or just about anything with their “tithe”, if they couldn’t get to the Temple (Deuteronomy 14:26). The marriage bed of the husband and wife is Holy, and even if one is an unbeliever their lust is sanctified, and on it goes as our allowed desire (temporary idol) is satisfied.
I saw relevance playing off point you made of Deuteronomy 17 turning of heart.
Christian faith, ituttut
ituttut...
I never considered you a "bozo" and you did not hurt my feelings. I just think we were talking about two different things. I did not see these relationships as representing a holy marriage, that's all.
I have definitely met some "bozos" here at the BB and I am definitely sure that some who have met me have considered me a "bozo"!
Thanks for explaining your context of "thinking like a woman". That explanation, coupled with your being married 56 years, helps me understand what you were saying. Congratulation on 56 years of marriage!
Peace-
Scarlett O.
<><
I never considered you a "bozo" and you did not hurt my feelings. I just think we were talking about two different things. I did not see these relationships as representing a holy marriage, that's all.
I have definitely met some "bozos" here at the BB and I am definitely sure that some who have met me have considered me a "bozo"!
Thanks for explaining your context of "thinking like a woman". That explanation, coupled with your being married 56 years, helps me understand what you were saying. Congratulation on 56 years of marriage!
Peace-
Scarlett O.
<><
menageriekeeper
Active Member
Itutut, so not to hijack this discussion I have started a new one over in General Baptist Discussions. Please come over and explain this to me.
link to new discussion
Have enjoyed the give and take in this conversation. Would that all could be a gracious as you.Originally posted by Scarlett O.:
ituttut...
I never considered you a "bozo" and you did not hurt my feelings. I just think we were talking about two different things. I did not see these relationships as representing a holy marriage, that's all.
I have definitely met some "bozos" here at the BB and I am definitely sure that some who have met me have considered me a "bozo"!
Thanks for explaining your context of "thinking like a woman". That explanation, coupled with your being married 56 years, helps me understand what you were saying. Congratulation on 56 years of marriage!
Peace-
Scarlett O.
<><
Christian faith, ituttut
Itutut, so not to hijack this discussion I have started a new one over in General Baptist Discussions. Please come over and explain this to me.
</font>[/QUOTE]Thanks menageriekeeper. I know I should know better, for this is the same as happened to Samson. I almost got my “hair” clipped here, and now I’m just asking for more trouble by accepting. But I’ll be over in a day or two, if I can recuperate, for I have a few more battles going on in this Forum, and sharing time with my wife, family, friends, and yard.
Christian faith, ituttut
ccrobinson
Active Member
As to Samson, I've been re-reading that story and I think Samson was very arrogant and a bully. There wasn't anybody among the Philistines who could "take him" in a fight, and he knew it and acted like it.
The riddle in Judges 14 was about Samson taunting the Philistines. Samson's own people didn't seem to have much love for him, handing him over to the Philistines in Judges 15. In Judges 16:3, I think he knew the Philistines were waiting and taunted them by walking away with the doors of the gate of the city while they undoubtedly watched him do it.
What does the word "loved" mean in Judges 16:4? Does it mean that he truly loved her? Or, does it mean that he just slept with her? I lean towards the 2nd answer.
I heard a pastor teach that Samson didn't seem to get it after 3 times of lying to Delilah and the Philistines. Basically, he was saying that Samson was stupid for not seeming to get that Delilah was the one who tried to bind him over and over.
But, I think Samson knew the Philistines were lying in wait in her chamber, and he was simply taunting his enemies with his lies. Maybe he thought Delilah was under duress and only asked him because the Philistines were there. I think that not only did he tell her because he was sick of her asking, but, at the time he told her, she was the only one with him. He probably thought he was safe.
So, what do you think? Is there merit to what I'm saying, or am I all wet?
The riddle in Judges 14 was about Samson taunting the Philistines. Samson's own people didn't seem to have much love for him, handing him over to the Philistines in Judges 15. In Judges 16:3, I think he knew the Philistines were waiting and taunted them by walking away with the doors of the gate of the city while they undoubtedly watched him do it.
What does the word "loved" mean in Judges 16:4? Does it mean that he truly loved her? Or, does it mean that he just slept with her? I lean towards the 2nd answer.
I heard a pastor teach that Samson didn't seem to get it after 3 times of lying to Delilah and the Philistines. Basically, he was saying that Samson was stupid for not seeming to get that Delilah was the one who tried to bind him over and over.
But, I think Samson knew the Philistines were lying in wait in her chamber, and he was simply taunting his enemies with his lies. Maybe he thought Delilah was under duress and only asked him because the Philistines were there. I think that not only did he tell her because he was sick of her asking, but, at the time he told her, she was the only one with him. He probably thought he was safe.
So, what do you think? Is there merit to what I'm saying, or am I all wet?
UnchartedSpirit
New Member
hmmm, so this is a lesson why Christians shouldnt get super powers because it's too much of a risk for arrogance?