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Why did you accept Christ?
- Thread starter whetstone
- Start date
It is not circular, the bible says those WHOM, which specifies a particular group. The argument shows that the whom, he glorifies is the exact same whom that He justifies, which is the exact same whom that he calls, which is the exact same whom that he predestines, which are the those that love him.
Pete Richert
New Member
I was making my statement outside of the question of why (and therefor this calvinist/arminian debate). I refuse to answer why I accepted anything when I did nothing of the sort. I called out on the name of the Lord Jesus because, knowing I was a sinner, I trusted in His promise of mercy.
As for your question why? I believe it was because God wishing to bring me back into a relationship of dependence and trust on Him, regenerated my heart and turned my heart of stone into one of flesh, resulting in my first and daily belief in Him. In short, yes, I am a calvinist.
I find this absurd. We don't simply "accept" Christ to avoid hell. If this is your only experience I encourage you to build a real relationship with God. The God/man relationship had one purpose from the beginning, that man might utterly and completly dependent on and trust into the God who is. Adam blew that for all mankind and God has provided a way for men to restore that relationship. If there were no threat of hell, I would still believe on God to sustain my life (as He does already, for believer and non-beliver alike), on to honor Him perfectly who deserves honor. Knowing God is not escaping punishment but to know Him that He is provider of all things and can be trusted implicitly. We were saved when God moved us from the kingdom of darkness to the kindom of His Son. Does anyone actually care if we are in the kindgom of His Son, or is escaping darkness just peachy and you might as well now live without God?
whetstone,
Alright, I think what you’re looking for me to say is that I had a “desire” not to got to Hell or a “desire” to have a right relationship with God. I’m sure you would then reply, “where did that desire come from?”. And then we might delve into our philosophies about the human psyche. Instead of doing that, lets cut to the chase.
Long before I “accepted Christ”, I had a desire to “get on the right track” so to speak. As far as I was concerned, it had nothing to do with the Bible but everything to do with God. Do I believe that God planted that desire within me? No, I do not. However, I DO believe God was actively convicting me just as He does with every other human being. How could I respond to that conviction? I was “dead in my sins” right? Incapable of responding to anything Divine. Wrong. I believe every human being has the capability to understand the difference between right and wrong, to understand that there is a God and they should have a right relationship with Him. Being “dead to God” and whatever other phrase or scripture you’re thinking of as you read this, to me, has nothing to do with what we’re talking about.
BTW, I'm enjoying this so lets keep going if you have the time and interest.
I do not equate “accepting Christ” with being “born again”. Being “born again”, in my mind is accomplished simply by believing in God (i.e. trusting Him). Romans 1:18 teaches me this. Furthermore, being “born again” is just what it is, a birth. Nothing more, nothing less. When I think of the term “salvation”, on the other hand, I think of an overall concept that includes degrees of relationship with God from birth to maturity and every level in between. Truly “accepting Christ” is a step towards maturity.
I chose to accept the truth. It’s as simple as that.
There was nothing different about me. I’m the same kind of human being as anyone else is.
You’re making presumptions. Be careful not to read into things too much.
Alright, I think what you’re looking for me to say is that I had a “desire” not to got to Hell or a “desire” to have a right relationship with God. I’m sure you would then reply, “where did that desire come from?”. And then we might delve into our philosophies about the human psyche. Instead of doing that, lets cut to the chase.
Long before I “accepted Christ”, I had a desire to “get on the right track” so to speak. As far as I was concerned, it had nothing to do with the Bible but everything to do with God. Do I believe that God planted that desire within me? No, I do not. However, I DO believe God was actively convicting me just as He does with every other human being. How could I respond to that conviction? I was “dead in my sins” right? Incapable of responding to anything Divine. Wrong. I believe every human being has the capability to understand the difference between right and wrong, to understand that there is a God and they should have a right relationship with Him. Being “dead to God” and whatever other phrase or scripture you’re thinking of as you read this, to me, has nothing to do with what we’re talking about.
I believe this applies to the New Testament church relationship; the position of that relation, not the individual.
BTW, I'm enjoying this so lets keep going if you have the time and interest.
Brian30755
New Member
Wow, how do I respond to this? YOU encourage ME to build a real relationship with God? Let me pray before I respond.
That explains a lot.
Brian
(Thankful that I, along with EVERYONE ELSE, am a whosoever.)
I
ILUVLIGHT
Guest
Hi Pete Richert;
In The Light Of Christ;
Mike
I'm courious of where you got this idea. Your heart being regenerated I mean. The Bible doesn't say our hearts are regenerated. It certainly doesn't say we are regenerated first either. Yet it does say Whosoever will, which implies an act of the will. It's called faith. Not a work Rom 4:5
In The Light Of Christ;
Mike
prophecynut
New Member
Actually, our hearts are changed at the same time we receive faith from God.
Our hearts can only be regenerated (changed) by God. In the case of Lydia's conversion and all others in Christ, it is God who opens our hearts to respond to Jesus Christ (Acts 16:13-14).
At the same time of our regeneration faith is given so we may acknowledge Jesus as Lord.
Faith is not works, it is given by God (Romans 12:3).
Faith is one of several gifts given to believers (1 Cor. 12:8-10).
Faith comes from the Father and the Lord (Eph. 6:23).
"Whosoever" does not imply an act of the will of those who belong to Christ, only that they belong to Christ and nothing else. The verses in which "whosoever" appears does not tell us how or why they believe in Christ or who initiates their belief in him. You have to read other scriptures to find the answers.
Our hearts can only be regenerated (changed) by God. In the case of Lydia's conversion and all others in Christ, it is God who opens our hearts to respond to Jesus Christ (Acts 16:13-14).
At the same time of our regeneration faith is given so we may acknowledge Jesus as Lord.
Faith is not works, it is given by God (Romans 12:3).
Faith is one of several gifts given to believers (1 Cor. 12:8-10).
Faith comes from the Father and the Lord (Eph. 6:23).
"Whosoever" does not imply an act of the will of those who belong to Christ, only that they belong to Christ and nothing else. The verses in which "whosoever" appears does not tell us how or why they believe in Christ or who initiates their belief in him. You have to read other scriptures to find the answers.
Pete Richert
New Member
Great! That will be the first step to a better relationship
Okay, I'm apologize for being harsh. No one made in the image of God deserves disrespect, especially not a brother and fellow member of the Body of Christ. I'm sorry for my attitude and ask your forgivness.
I'm going to qoute your statement as to misrepresent you.
I hope you don't really mean this. If so, then we have a very different understanding of what the value is or even what it means to know God.
Ray Berrian
New Member
prophecynut,
You said, 'Actually, our hearts are changed at the same time we receive faith from God.'
You said, 'Actually, our hearts are changed at the same time we receive faith from God.'
I'm glad. A few more questions for you.
No it's not. If you truly did it as a spontaneous act that had nothing to do with God's hand- what a deistic god we have!
Excellent observation- and I agree. I'm no different either. So the only variable we are left with is God.
So your acceptance of Christ was more like the reform an alcoholic seeks after he sobers up? God is your AA? If this was the defining factor that caused men to accept Christ- why are people being saved without 'getting off track' so to speak?
God didn't plant the desire to be saved in your heart? Then who did?
If God convicts all people equally, why do some accept Christ? What is the x factor that causes them to spontaneously repent?
I do too. So since we have a level playing ground to start out with- why do some accept and some reject?
I believe this applies to the New Testament church relationship; the position of that relation, not the individual.</font>[/QUOTE]Can the church be separated from the believers in it? Can a church be elect to salvation without individual people who make up the church being elect?
God bless.
Daniel Allen
www.spurgeon.us
whetstone,
I’ve attempted here to use your analogy with my personal experience for the purpose of continuing our discussion. Don’t read too much into it or you’re liable to get confused with what I’m trying to say.
The “desire to be saved”, as you call it, was not a particular desire. There wasn’t a “something” or concrete outcome I was looking for. So we can not correctly call it a specific desire. It was something general. I wanted help. That’s it. “God, please help me” was my cry. At that period of time, I could have certainly been born again. However, if someone asks me “when were you saved?”, I’ll point them to another event that occurred a few months later only because it better fits the widely accepted idea of "being saved" (i.e on this day I "accpeted Christ as my Savior").
I guess the question then would be, “did God plant the desire to want His help within me?”. To that I would answer “no”. Was God working with me? Yes. Was He convicting me? Yes, absolutely. Yet neither of those ideas presupposes that God had pre-programmed my heart and head to respond to Him.
To really get anywhere with this discussion, I think you need to forget personal experience. Your ideas about salvation have more to do with what you believe about God and human beings than it does about an individual’s circumstances. It would neither be good for me to draw conclusions about God based upon my own experiences. So your line of questions about my personal experiences and my answers to them doesn’t help us.
The X factor is choice. It explains the question quite well in my mind.
4study
Spontaneous? It wasn’t impulsive, if that’s what you mean.
I’m not sure your analogy works but I’ll try to go with it. I suppose I was in a sort of drunken state, unaware of how much trouble I was really in until a set of circumstances, coinciding with one another, awakened me to reality. I was “heading down the road to destruction”. This had nothing to do with Hell or Heaven at the time, but I remember realizing I needed help. Help beyond what I myself or anyone else could offer. The only place I could look was up.
I’ve attempted here to use your analogy with my personal experience for the purpose of continuing our discussion. Don’t read too much into it or you’re liable to get confused with what I’m trying to say.
The “desire to be saved”, as you call it, was not a particular desire. There wasn’t a “something” or concrete outcome I was looking for. So we can not correctly call it a specific desire. It was something general. I wanted help. That’s it. “God, please help me” was my cry. At that period of time, I could have certainly been born again. However, if someone asks me “when were you saved?”, I’ll point them to another event that occurred a few months later only because it better fits the widely accepted idea of "being saved" (i.e on this day I "accpeted Christ as my Savior").
I guess the question then would be, “did God plant the desire to want His help within me?”. To that I would answer “no”. Was God working with me? Yes. Was He convicting me? Yes, absolutely. Yet neither of those ideas presupposes that God had pre-programmed my heart and head to respond to Him.
To really get anywhere with this discussion, I think you need to forget personal experience. Your ideas about salvation have more to do with what you believe about God and human beings than it does about an individual’s circumstances. It would neither be good for me to draw conclusions about God based upon my own experiences. So your line of questions about my personal experiences and my answers to them doesn’t help us.
Again, I’m not sure where you’re getting the idea of “spontaneity”. Accepting Christ, being saved, believing, trusting, or whatever we want to call it is not an impulsive act.
The X factor is choice. It explains the question quite well in my mind.
You do? I thought “total depravity” meant humans are NOT capable of understanding right vs. wrong, that there is a God, and that they should have a right relationship with Him.
Yes. It just depends on what’s being talked about in any given context. You can talk about “office” without talking about “person”. The church is a relationship. And you can talk about the office of that relationship without regard to the individual.
Yes. The church is an “elect” position. However, it doesn’t mean individuals who make up the church are “elected” in the sense that they were individually chosen (i.e. predestined).
4study
What about others who were in identical situations and 'looked up' but did not accept Christ? Perhaps they turned to Catholicism or Islam or any number of other religions. What made the difference?
So God convicted you without planting desire for repentance in you? How is that possible? If He convicts you- He is doing it to cause you to repent! You say that the reason you were in the position to accept Christ was because of 'circumstances.' Do you believe these were coicidental or that God brought them into your life to bring you to repentance? How could God be left out of this equasion?
Sure it does. It very clearly shows the error of Free-willism. All people who are saved had a life before they got saved. All people who are saved are the same way- and were the same way before they got saved. If all people are supposedly convicted the same amount (as the free-willist asserts) then there would be something different between the saved and lost- a reason they had gotten saved. You're throwing your hands up and calling it a non-issue because you don't like the only logical answer: election!
Again, I’m not sure where you’re getting the idea of “spontaneity”. Accepting Christ, being saved, believing, trusting, or whatever we want to call it is not an impulsive act.</font>[/QUOTE]Before you 'had your circumstances' you were not looking for God. You wanted nothing to do with Him. But then some things started to happen and your heart changed. Did you cause your circumstances to do that or did God? Who's credit does your salvation belong to- God or you?
Choice cannot be the x factor. Choice is part of the equasion that x factor must explain. Choice alone does not explain salvation. All men have an equal amount of choice- yet some accept Christ and some do not. There is another factor involved added to choice that makes the difference.
Man + Choice = Sin (Garden of Eden)
Man + Choice + X = Repentance
Then you misunderstand Total Inability. Man knows that he is sinning and he loves it. He is blind to the way of salvation and blind to the paths of righteousness but that doesn't mean he can't give money to charity or help a little old lady across the street. 95% of American's believe there is a God and I guaruntee you most of them are not saved. And they know they should have a right relationship with Him- why do you think they work so hard in other religions? Total inability is about man's willful refusal to come to God on His own terms unless his heart of stone is turned into a heart of flesh.
Yes. It just depends on what’s being talked about in any given context. You can talk about “office” without talking about “person”. The church is a relationship. And you can talk about the office of that relationship without regard to the individual.</font>[/QUOTE]A church cannot be elect to salvation without individuals being elect to salvation. it's impossible. That is the point I am making.
Yes. The church is an “elect” position. However, it doesn’t mean individuals who make up the church are “elected” in the sense that they were individually chosen (i.e. predestined).</font>[/QUOTE]You're twisting scripture to fit your doctrine. That's a no-no. 2 Thes. 2:13 says the brethren were chosen to salvation. You don't like that so you change it to 'the church' and say it has nothing to do with individual salvation.
I say Illinois was elected 'most loving state.' You would pin a medal on the ground and congradulate it.
God bless.
Dan
4study [/QB][/QUOTE]
T
TexasSky
Guest
Whetstone,
To me the verse that says we love Him because He first loved us is very straight forward. Christ loved us enough to live 33 years as a human being. Christ loved us enough to die for us. Christ loved us enough to forgive us, even when we did everything we could to hurt Him. We, in turn, respond to that love.
That said, before my calvinist friends leap on that. .. let me answer you before you ask. If Christ forced that love. If Christ said, "I'll make you love me," it would not be love.
Love, in its purest form, is clearly defined by Christ Himself. It is showing the actions of love, even if the receipient appears to be or IS undeserving of that love.
If a man kidnaps a woman, screams, "I love you, and I'll make you marry me," it isn't love. It may be imprisonment, it may be rape, it may be marriage, but you cannot FORCE love.
If a man says to a woman, "I love you. Even though I know you do not love me in return. Even though you've hurt me," and waits, patiently, for that woman to say, "I want to be with you." THAT is love.
If you, as a man, would not settle for sex and shared housing with a woman who you had to force to be with you - why do you think God would settle for less than REAL love?
To me the verse that says we love Him because He first loved us is very straight forward. Christ loved us enough to live 33 years as a human being. Christ loved us enough to die for us. Christ loved us enough to forgive us, even when we did everything we could to hurt Him. We, in turn, respond to that love.
That said, before my calvinist friends leap on that. .. let me answer you before you ask. If Christ forced that love. If Christ said, "I'll make you love me," it would not be love.
Love, in its purest form, is clearly defined by Christ Himself. It is showing the actions of love, even if the receipient appears to be or IS undeserving of that love.
If a man kidnaps a woman, screams, "I love you, and I'll make you marry me," it isn't love. It may be imprisonment, it may be rape, it may be marriage, but you cannot FORCE love.
If a man says to a woman, "I love you. Even though I know you do not love me in return. Even though you've hurt me," and waits, patiently, for that woman to say, "I want to be with you." THAT is love.
If you, as a man, would not settle for sex and shared housing with a woman who you had to force to be with you - why do you think God would settle for less than REAL love?
I'm sorry you feel the Calvinist position is forced love but it's nothing of the sort. You are using a man-made analogy for salvation which can be good- but is not always the best.
Consider it this way:
Christ has effectively woo'd his bride in a way no man could do. He knows exactly the things to say to her to make her blush and when the time comes to ask her hand she cannot possibly resist! The bride certainly agreed- but it was Christ who first moved, and it was Christs amazing power that effectually drew her.
If you consider this to be some sort of 'love rape' because the call was irresistable- you have a very poor understanding of Calvinism. God bless.
Daniel Allen
www.spurgeon.us
whetstone,
Regards,
4study
I think there are more born-again children of God in the world, regardless of their religion, than people would care to admit. Again, “accepting Christ” is a decision.
“…planting the desire for repentance”? You’re introducing new terms now that you assume we both are in agreement on. I didn’t say I had a desire to repent. Repentance is another step. It’s also not a one-time thing.
Yes, but that does not mean I’m predestined to repent.
Many of those “circumstances” to which I refer were mostly brought on by myself. Yet God was convicting me the whole time. I wasn’t listening for the most part.
How are they all the same?
Yes, choice is the difference. People make different choices. To you, I’m sure that sounds blasphemous because the very thought of “choice” might sound like “Arminianism”, which I don’t agree with either by the way. It may also make you feel like it strips God of His Sovereignty or something similar, but to me, it’s completely different.
Like I warned you, you’re assuming too much by reading into what I’m saying. The logical answer to all of this is different to me than you. Just assuming that “I’m throwing my hands up” doesn’t help you understand where I’m coming from. So I question your motive here. Are you trying to understand? Or are you trying to pound home your truth? If you want to make a case, please continue, but don’t assume I’m ignoring you.
How do you know that?
How do you know that?
How do you know that?
I give all credit to God. Yet I’m not fatalistic either.
You’re right, “choice” does not explain salvation.
Why must there be another factor? I’d like to explore that question with you. For me, choice is the answer. For you, there “must be something else”. Why?
I disagree. How long did Adam live in the garden and choose not to eat of the forbidden fruit? Here’s another point; what we believe on these things really takes us back about what we believe about God’s purpose with Adam in the garden. We could also talk about that more if you’d like.
Wait a minute. I said I believe that every human being has the capability to understand that there is a God and they should have a right relationship with Him (i.e. enough to be born again). I’m not talking about morals here. I’m talking about what can be understood in order to be born of God. Correct me again if I’m wrong, but I thought Total Depravity meant people do not have this capability.
Oh really? You have the ability to tell who’s lost and who isn’t? I think you’ll be surprised one day.
Again, we have a difference of opinion about what it takes to be born again. As a reminder, I don’t believe election has anything to do with the new birth.
I disagree. The church is not a person, it’s a position of relationship. The position itself existed prior to anyone occupying it.
2 Thes. 2:13 does not say “the brethren” were chosen to salvation. It says “you”. The pronoun “you” does not necessarily have to reference a person. For instance, we can talk about the president and say “he, the president”, and be talking about his position. I certainly do not disagree that Paul was here talking to the members (or persons) of the church. However, I believe he was talking about their position as members, not about them as individuals. You can say I’m twisting the scripture, but I could also say the same of you. What we believe about other things determines how we’ll interpret it. This verse neither proves nor disproves your case.
It depends on what’s being talked about. You can honor an office can’t you? What comes first? The person or the office?
Regards,
4study