why Do Arminians "KNOW" God saves more sinners their way than in calvinism?

[agedman]

God is not willing that any should perish.

You do take the verse totally out of context.

Context of 2 Peter 3:

3Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts, 4and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation.”

​

See, the context is that folks are questioning why Christ has not yet come back. (On a side note: This passage refutes the Preterist position. 2 Peter was written many years after their supposed timeline return.)

Read more of the context:

5For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water, 6through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water. 7But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men. 8But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.

​

In context, Peter is showing how the "word" of God formed and preserved the world, and therefore God's word is still reliable (even to our day).


To THIS context is the verse you quoted:

9The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
​

The promise is that when the last person is saved that God has chosen to be saved, then promise will be completed just as God has given in His word.

The verse is NEVER to be taken that God desires, nor that God has obligation, to "draw" every person to Christ.

Some other verse would have to be used to support that view, but not this one.

The context does not give that permission.

 

[prophet]

This statement is not in the bible. God is very willing that multitudes will perish , in fact he says so right here;

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Sounds like he is very willing to justly send them away...and here again;
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:


Your statement is false and unbiblical because you mangled the verse where these words are found.The verse actual speaks of The Long suffering of God in waiting for all the elect to be saved....He is Long suffering...TO USWARD,
not willing that any...[of the usward} perish.....but that ALL come to repentance, and they ALL do. Not one of these shall perish.

In contrast to the scoffers of 2 pet 3...the Beloved, the elect are assured of God's design to save ALL the Father gives to the Son.....read the whole chapter if you want to see this.......It is written to encourage believers in the midst of the ungodly scoffers who come against the truth.

The context is to the elect, in this verse.
Agreed.

 

[prophet]

You do take the verse totally out of context.

Context of 2 Peter 3:

3Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts, 4and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation.”

​

See, the context is that folks are questioning why Christ has not yet come back. (On a side note: This passage refutes the Preterist position. 2 Peter was written many years after their supposed timeline return.)

Read more of the context:

5For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water, 6through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water. 7But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men. 8But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.

​

In context, Peter is showing how the "word" of God formed and preserved the world, and therefore God's word is still reliable (even to our day).


To THIS context is the verse you quoted:

9The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
​

The promise is that when the last person is saved that God has chosen to be saved, then promise will be completed just as God has given in His word.

The verse is NEVER to be taken that God desires, nor that God has obligation, to "draw" every person to Christ.

Some other verse would have to be used to support that view, but not this one.

The context does not give that permission.

So you are looking forward to this, at the end of the great tribulation?
2Pe 3:12
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

 

[padredurand]

Just thinking out loud here. What if....

Out of all the people who have ever lived, are now living or will live before the end of all things - what if - God elected to salvation all but about a million people?

What if, in His election, God chose to save 98% of the people that have, are or will live?

If God's election were such that most of the folks to experience earthly life were elected into eternal life would that change the conversation?

I'm not trying to start anything here other than conversation. I get the impression that election is thought to be rare, few and exclusive. What if it's more widespread than we imagine?

 

[agedman]

Just thinking out loud here. What if....

Out of all the people who have ever lived, are now living or will live before the end of all things - what if - God elected to salvation all but about a million people?

What if, in His election, God chose to save 98% of the people that have, are or will live?

If God's election were such that most of the folks to experience earthly life were elected into eternal life would that change the conversation?

I'm not trying to start anything here other than conversation. I get the impression that election is thought to be rare, few and exclusive. What if it's more widespread than we imagine?

There is no telling how many folks have or will become believers.

God is victorious if none or all are redeemed.

Could it be conceivable that "Broadway" doesn't have a traffic jam occurring on it?

 

[agedman]

So you are looking forward to this, at the end of the great tribulation?
2Pe 3:12
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

Not Peter's concern.

He is pointing to the final victory is reliable because God's word isn't broken.

10But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up. 11Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness,

​

I know I stopped the reading in the midst of a sentence, but the thought is moving to include daily living in light of what is occurring in the believer's life.


We are to "look up for the redemption draws nigh" - it is nearer in our day then that day Peter recorded his letter.

12looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat! 13But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.


​

See, Peter is continuing the validation statements and including the elements of a cause (basis) of believer hope.

14Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless, 15and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, 16as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction. 17You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and fall from your own steadfastness, 18but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.
​

Peter's wording isn't a matter of timing and eschatology (though some would make efforts to assign the words to some scheme) but a matter of the presentation that God's word is not weak and not able to relied upon.

Peter would in effect say: He will complete what He has promised. You can count on it. Knowing this, here is what you should live like...

 

[BobRyan]

Just thinking out loud here. What if....

Out of all the people who have ever lived, are now living or will live before the end of all things - what if - God elected to salvation all but about a million people?

What if, in His election, God chose to save 98% of the people that have, are or will live?

If God's election were such that most of the folks to experience earthly life were elected into eternal life would that change the conversation?

I'm not trying to start anything here other than conversation. I get the impression that election is thought to be rare, few and exclusive. What if it's more widespread than we imagine?

At the time Noah - the entire planet wiped -- 8 saved.

At the time of Christ - the entire nation rejects the Messiah -- some Jews choose to be faithful.

The faithful have never been the "vast majority".

And in Matt 7 Christ says it is the "FEW" that enter the kingdom of heaven and the "many" that go to hell - or what John calls "the lake of fire" in Rev 20.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by prophet
God is not willing that any should perish.

This statement is not in the bible.

Correction - that statement is not 'supposed to be in the Bible' according to Calvinism - but in fact 2Peter 3 IS in the Bible.


Just like God's "lament" is not "supposed to be in the Bible" according to Calvinism - and yet it is there.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Speaking of "God's Lament" - texts that are not supposed to exist according to Calvinism ---


[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“He CAME to HIS OWN and [/FONT][FONT=&quot]His OWN received Him not[/FONT][FONT=&quot]” John 1[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Matt 23[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]37“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]38“Behold, your house is being left to you desolate![/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Luke 7[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]28 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]When all the people and the tax collectors heard this, they acknowledged God’s justice, having been baptized with the baptism of John. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]29 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God’s purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Is 5:4[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?[/FONT]

Ezek 18
[FONT=&quot]31“Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! For why will you die, O house of Israel? [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]32“For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies,” declares the Lord GOD. “Therefore, repent and LIVE!" [/FONT]



Calvinism is left with the scenario of the parent who does not feed the children - complaining that the children are in poor health saying "o what more could have been done that I have not done!" - when Calvinists know exactly "what more" in Calvinism the "same more that WAS done for the elect!".

In the Arminian model you have the parent that prepares food and sets it before all the children - some of which choose to eat and some of which refuse and then the parent says of those in poor health "what more could have been done that I have not done!". In Arminianism there is nothing more that is done for one group vs another - in Calvinism there is mind-zap reprogramming done for one group but not the other that fully explains the two different groups - the two different outcomes and as Luke2427 points out - negates the lament which "should not even exist".

 

[OldRegular]

Just thinking out loud here. What if....

Out of all the people who have ever lived, are now living or will live before the end of all things - what if - God elected to salvation all but about a million people?

What if, in His election, God chose to save 98% of the people that have, are or will live?

If God's election were such that most of the folks to experience earthly life were elected into eternal life would that change the conversation?

I'm not trying to start anything here other than conversation. I get the impression that election is thought to be rare, few and exclusive. What if it's more widespread than we imagine?

Scripture gives us an indication:

Revelation 5:9-12
9. And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10. And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
11. And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;
12. Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

Revelation 7:9-12
9. After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10. And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11. And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
12. Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

Revelation 19:5-8
5. And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.
6. And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
7. Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

 

[Yeshua1]

Originally Posted by prophet
God is not willing that any should perish.




Correction - that statement is not 'supposed to be in the Bible' according to Calvinism - but in fact 2Peter 3 IS in the Bible.


Just like God's "lament" is not "supposed to be in the Bible" according to Calvinism - and yet it is there.

in Christ,

Bob

The Lord has BOTH a direct/determined Will, his elect shall indeed ALL be saved by Cross of Christ, and a permissive Will, He desires that all would repent to get saved, but knows all cannot, not unless he enables them to do such!

 

[Iconoclast]

Just thinking out loud here. What if....

Out of all the people who have ever lived, are now living or will live before the end of all things - what if - God elected to salvation all but about a million people?

What if, in His election, God chose to save 98% of the people that have, are or will live?

If God's election were such that most of the folks to experience earthly life were elected into eternal life would that change the conversation?

I'm not trying to start anything here other than conversation. I get the impression that election is thought to be rare, few and exclusive. What if it's more widespread than we imagine?

Yes indeed...what if it was exactly like this;
5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.

16 And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed also be numbered

 

[Iconoclast]

Originally Posted by prophet
God is not willing that any should perish.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Iconoclast View Post
This statement is not in the bible.

Correction - that statement is not 'supposed to be in the Bible' according to Calvinism - but in fact 2Peter 3 IS in the Bible.

Let's take a minute to correct the correction shall we.....

Bob....2 pet 3 is in the bible..yes it is...no one said it was not. However you like satan speaking to Jesus in LUKE 4...only want to quote part of the verse and change the meaning completely....Satan left out part of the psalm he mis-quotes it perverting the meaning.
You do not want to use satan as a role model on how to mis-quote verses ,perverting them do you?

Psalm 91 says.....
11 For he shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways.

12 They shall bear thee up in their hands, lest thou dash thy foot against a stone.
Now when satan misquotes it...he leaves out the phrase...to keep thee in all thy ways.

see here;

10 For it is written, He shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee:

11 And in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
You are doing the same with this verse and it has been pointed out to you several times,and yet you persist to wrest the verse out of the whole chapter and only quote a bit of it.....to match your gospel of works...
thanks for trying to offer correction, only use the whole verse correctly next time.


Prophet......you see how the passage understood correctly changes what is being said?

Every single person that Peter speaks of will be saved without fail.

 

[BobRyan]

Bob....2 pet 3 is in the bible..yes it is...no one said it was not.

I too am convinced it is there.

Just like 1John 2:2 is there.

However you like satan speaking to Jesus in LUKE 4...only want to quote part of the verse

Interesting accusation on your part. Why be so accusing of the brethren sir?

Here is how I prefer 2Peter 3

5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

No help for Calvinism there - because the text deals with the entire planet in all cases.


And when compared to 1John 2:2 - it leaves Calvinism with no place to hide in the "We, Us, OUR" fog trying to interject and convoluted "us-ward all the saints of Peter's day, plus all the lost of Peter's day that would one day be saved - plus all the unborn lost of all future generations that would one day be saved"..



1John 2:2

2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.




You see how the we-us-our pronoun fog vanishes?? Just when you think that Calvinism can hide behind us-ward in 2 Peter 3 - John takes that rock away in 1John 2:2!


There is simply no place for Calvinism to go on this one.


in Christ,


Bob

 

[Iconoclast]

BobRyan

Hello BOB,

I too am convinced it is there.

Just like 1John 2:2 is there.

While it is good to agree that 2 pet 3 is in the bible.....and 1 jn 2 is in the bible.....It is even better to notice that 1 jn 2....IS NOT....IN 2 PET 3....


so your attempt to avoid the correction by hopping off down the bunny trail will not work Bob.You are avoiding the issue here as you do in all the threads with biblicist.

My grandsons have a game called whack a mole. A mole pops up, they hammer it down and another one pops up, and on it goes.
You are playing theological whack a mole , rather than finding a biblical solution and understand 2 pet 3.....you seek to jump to other texts...usually the same 5 or six texts....1jn 2 jn 12 ,we all know them as you do it in every other post.:thumbsup:

Interesting accusation on your part. Why be so accusing of the brethren sir?

Why??? because you did this exact thing.I quoted you directly....as I quoted the words of satan....both of you left out the key words that cause the whole intent of God's word to change....

Bob.....quote my post and show line by line where I did not quote you exactly, or if you feel I mis-quoted satan???

Here is how I prefer 2Peter 3

See Bob.....you might "prefer" the Sun to be dark green and maybe you can put some kind of filter on a lens , perhaps that just looks at the magnetic output of the Sun...and it might show up looking green. The verse posted with you highlighting only half of it...does not explain away....beloved, to -usward, us, all through the whole chapter.

No help for Calvinism there - because the text deals with the entire planet in all cases.

Calvinism needs no help as it looks at and understands all the verses without removing parts of the verse...no..we leave it intact.

And when compared to 1John 2:2

That is it's own discussion all by itself.

- it leaves Calvinism with no place to hide

no need to hide..we enjoy all the verses as written.

in the "We, Us, OUR" fog

It seems that way to you because you resist truth so it is not given to you.

trying to interject and convoluted "us-ward all the saints of Peter's day, plus all the lost of Peter's day that would one day be saved - plus all the unborn lost of all future generations that would one day be saved"

..

maybe you will understand it some day.....you see Jesus taught in jn 12 that he would draw all men ,not just Israelites to the Saviour. Not Israel only, but the children given by the Father scattered all over the world....

1John 2:2

2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Exactly...anyone ,anywhere , throughout the remainder of time....whose sins are atoned for.Not everyone in the world has their sins atoned for so they die...IN THEIR SINS.

You might not like how I say this Bob...but look at how Jesus said it.

24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.