Why do non cals say cals teach regeneration before faith?

[DaChaser1]

Know that some such as DHK have posted that Cals hold to that, isn't it more true ONLY hyper cals do, and that majority hold tofaith as a Gift of God same times pretty much as receiving Christ to be saved?

 

[AresMan]

The before is not chronological but logical or causal. They can both be simultaneous, but one is the cause and the other is the effect. Much like pulling a trigger of a gun to fire a projectile, regeneration and faith go hand-in-hand.

 

[convicted1]

Because most Cals do, with the exception of Brother jbh28, the rest I think do hold to this.

They state that they must be quickened/regenerated/made alive to be able to believe the Gospel. And in the regenerated state, one could theorhetically be "alive" for years, and not saved/in Christ. It's all over BB.

 

[12strings]

Know that some such as DHK have posted that Cals hold to that, isn't it more true ONLY hyper cals do, and that majority hold tofaith as a Gift of God same times pretty much as receiving Christ to be saved?

Many Calvinists do hold to this position, but like Ares said, logically, not necessarily temporally. Many would say they occur simultaneously, as in Regeneration immediately produces faith. It would be sort of like saying which comes first, conception or life?

Regarding Hyper-Cals, really the primary Distinctive historically is their opposition to offering the gospel to the elect and the non-elect. They disagree with missions. Other than that, even the strongest Calvinist who says regeneration precedes faith cannot be called a hyper-calvinist without changing the historically accepted meaning of the word.

 

[Forest]

Know that some such as DHK have posted that Cals hold to that, isn't it more true ONLY hyper cals do, and that majority hold tofaith as a Gift of God same times pretty much as receiving Christ to be saved?

Faith is a fruit of the Spirit. You cannot have faith until you have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, however, the old testement children of God were said to have the Spirit upon them. Either way, faith is a fruit of the Spirit, Gal 5:22.

 

[Forest]

Because most Cals do, with the exception of Brother jbh28, the rest I think do hold to this.

They state that they must be quickened/regenerated/made alive to be able to believe the Gospel. And in the regenerated state, one could theorhetically be "alive" for years, and not saved/in Christ. It's all over BB.

If God quickens a person to a Spiritual life they were one of those that God gave to his Son to die for, John 6:37-41. Salvation was accomplished for them on the cross. You cannot be regenerated and not be saved.

 

[Cypress]

cmon guys, simultaneous is at the same time, moment, whatever. If regeneration produces, proceeds or anything else before faith then it is not simultaneous.

 

[quantumfaith]

Faith is a fruit of the Spirit. You cannot have faith until you have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, however, the old testement children of God were said to have the Spirit upon them. Either way, faith is a fruit of the Spirit, Gal 5:22.

I thought it said "faithfulness" is a fruit of the spirit. Does that carry the same implication as to "having faith"?

 

[jbh28]

When God saves a person, he gives the person the gift of faith at the same time as he gives them the gift of life.

 

[Iconoclast]

Willis.....when people rise on the last day......do they rise first, then get resurrected?

When the man with the withered hand stretched forth his hand.....did he move it first...before God enabled him to...or did God enable him to do what he could not do? {believe and stretch it forth}??

 

[Dale-c]

Know that some such as DHK have posted that Cals hold to that, isn't it more true ONLY hyper cals do, and that majority hold tofaith as a Gift of God same times pretty much as receiving Christ to be saved?

Because this is what we believe, as the others have said. And yes, it is more of a logical order rather than chronological. So, yes, it is pretty much the same time as you have said, but as the other poster said, a bullet leaves a gun pretty much the same time the trigger is pulled. But one happened that caused the other.

Hyper-Calvinists believe all sorts of extreme stuff.

 

[Skandelon]

The before is not chronological but logical or causal. They can both be simultaneous, but one is the cause and the other is the effect. Much like pulling a trigger of a gun to fire a projectile, regeneration and faith go hand-in-hand.

You have your cause and effect turned around:

John 20:31:
But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

There are many texts like this one which clearly show that life comes through faith and not the other way around.

 

[convicted1]

Willis.....when people rise on the last day......do they rise first, then get resurrected?

When the man with the withered hand stretched forth his hand.....did he move it first...before God enabled him to...or did God enable him to do what he could not do? {believe and stretch it forth}??

The problem I have with the way some purport the fre-faith regeneration, is that they state one can be regenerated for years, and then saved. That has someone spiritually alive outside of Jesus Christ. Now, I am not saying you think one can be regenerated for years, and still outside of Christ, but some have said so.

Jesus stated, Except ye eat of My flesh, and drink of My blood, ye have NO LIFE in you."


Isa. 55:3 Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David.


John 5:24-26

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;



Hearing God speak is what brings life, not life bringing forth the ability to hear.


John 6

51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.

56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.

58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

Now, anyone who has spiritual life, they have partaken of Jesus' body and blood, spiritually speaking. No one, and I mean no one, has life outside of the way Jesus proclaimed here. You are not spiritually alive outside of Christ. You are not made spiritually alive to believe the Gospel. You are made spiritually alive because you have placed you trust/believed in Him.

 

[jonathan.borland]

Why do non cals say cals teach regeneration before faith?

Because Calvinists tend to neglect the fact that regeneration occurs as a consequence of one putting one's faith in Christ and repenting from sin through the special conviction of the Holy Spirit. They also tend to neglect that salvific grace has enlightened every man that enters the world. Many reject this grace, but that does not negate the fact that God has given it.

 

[convicted1]

You have your cause and effect turned around:

John 20:31:
But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

There are many texts like this one which clearly show that life comes through faith and not the other way around.

:applause::applause::thumbs::thumbs:

 

[quantumfaith]

Because Calvinists tend to neglect the fact that regeneration occurs as a consequence of one putting one's faith in Christ and repenting from sin through the special conviction of the Holy Spirit. They also tend to neglect that salvific grace has enlightened every man that enters the world. Many reject this grace, but that does not negate the fact that God has given it.

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Because Calvinists tend to neglect the fact that regeneration occurs as a consequence of one putting one's faith in Christ and repenting from sin through the special conviction of the Holy Spirit. They also tend to neglect that salvific grace has enlightened every man that enters the world. Many reject this grace, but that does not negate the fact that God has given it.

Sorry but it did not happen that way with me when I examine my own personal salvation experience & I can recall it vividly (it was less than 2 years ago) because it was so recent. May I suggest that the Lord has various ways to bring people to salvation and so therefore this argument is not factoring that peculiarity in.

I dont really care if it happened one way or the other....the point is that it actually happens & thank the Lord it does.

 

[Iconoclast]

Because Calvinists tend to neglect the fact that regeneration occurs as a consequence of one putting one's faith in Christ and repenting from sin through the special conviction of the Holy Spirit. They also tend to neglect that salvific grace has enlightened every man that enters the world. Many reject this grace, but that does not negate the fact that God has given it.

faith is a consequence of regeneration.....you have it backwards....

The mis-guided posts from Jn 20 also show the result...not the cause.

 

[Tom Butler]

Let's throw this verse into the discussion:
John 1:13

Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

The NASB gives this rendering

who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

This seems to me to be saying that regeneration is a unilateral work of God, and we humans have nothing to do with it.

Repentance and faith are never made conditions of regeneration, but are gifts.
Acts 5:31 "....to give repentance to Israel and remission of sins."
Acts 11:18 "....then to the Gentiles hath God granted repentance unto life.:
II Tim 2:25 "....if peradventure God may give them repentance unto the knowledge of the truth."

Since repentance and faith are two sides of the same coin we may also argue that faith is a work of God in us as well.

 

[Tom Butler]

state that they must be quickened/regenerated/made alive to be able to believe the Gospel. And in the regenerated state, one could theoretically be "alive" for years, and not saved/in Christ. It's all over BB.

Willis, this is a fair question. I have mulled for a long time over that argument. I have come to the conclusion that when the Holy Spirit regenerates a sinner, there will little or no gap between that act of the Spirit and the lost man's exercise of saving repentance and faith.

Here's why I believe that. A long gap (or any significant gap) between regeneration and salvation would mean that one would have the new nature in rebellion and unbelief against God.

So the quickening, the opening of eyes to spiritual things, the convicting of sin, the drawing, repentance and faith must come in fairly quick order.

I also appeal to I Cor 2:14 for my view:

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.