Why do non cals say cals teach regeneration before faith?

[webdog]

Let's throw this verse into the discussion:
John 1:13

The NASB gives this rendering


This seems to me to be saying that regeneration is a unilateral work of God, and we humans have nothing to do with it.

Repentance and faith are never made conditions of regeneration, but are gifts.
Acts 5:31 "....to give repentance to Israel and remission of sins."
Acts 11:18 "....then to the Gentiles hath God granted repentance unto life.:
II Tim 2:25 "....if peradventure God may give them repentance unto the knowledge of the truth."

Since repentance and faith are two sides of the same coin we may also argue that faith is a work of God in us as well.

You are confusing faith as the means of regeneration (we don't give ourselves new life, but we do have faith) and it being regeneration.

Fact is, there is NO life outside of Christ. Passing from spiritual death to spiritual life NEVER occurs in any other manner no matter how "logical" a systematic theology tries to make it.

 

[Tom Butler]

You are confusing faith as the means of regeneration (we don't give ourselves new life, but we do have faith) and it being regeneration.

Fact is, there is NO life outside of Christ. Passing from spiritual death to spiritual life NEVER occurs in any other manner no matter how "logical" a systematic theology tries to make it.

Maybe I wasn't clear enough, because I hold that regeneration (being born again, quickening) precedes faith. Faith, in my view, is a gift of God, and is a result of regeneration, not the cause.

I don't want to put words in your mouth, so to speak, but am I right that you hold that regeneration and salvation are the same thing? And that repentance and faith precede salvation?

Therein lies a major difference between Cals and non-Cals. And, like you, I try to appeal to scripture for my view. We'll probably be debating this when the Lord returns (if we don't meet each other in heaven before then).

I have this little scenario in my mind, of you and me, heading for the Throne with just one question: OK Lord, who's right about this?

 

[Skandelon]

faith is a consequence of regeneration.....you have it backwards....

The mis-guided posts from Jn 20 also show the result...not the cause.

Yeah, you have to stand on your head and read it so that instead of it saying, "by believing you may have life," it magically says, "by being made alive you believe." :smilewinkgrin:

 

[webdog]

Maybe I wasn't clear enough, because I hold that regeneration (being born again, quickening) precedes faith. Faith, in my view, is a gift of God, and is a result of regeneration, not the cause.

I don't want to put words in your mouth, so to speak, but am I right that you hold that regeneration and salvation are the same thing? And that repentance and faith precede salvation?

Therein lies a major difference between Cals and non-Cals. And, like you, I try to appeal to scripture for my view. We'll probably be debating this when the Lord returns (if we don't meet each other in heaven before then).

I have this little scenario in my mind, of you and me, heading for the Throne with just one question: OK Lord, who's right about this?

If new life (only in Christ, never apart) is not salvation, what is?

 

[Tom Butler]

I think a good analogy is the story of Lazarus. When Jesus shouted "Lazarus, come forth!", Lazarus obviously heard him. That means he was alive before Jesus called him out.

 

[jbh28]

I think a good analogy is the story of Lazarus. When Jesus shouted "Lazarus, come forth!", Lazarus obviously heard him. That means he was alive before Jesus called him out.

Or maybe he came alive as Christ called him. Spitting hairs maybe.... The point of course is that Lazarus was dead and it was Jesus that made him alive.

 

[Amy.G]

Or maybe he came alive as Christ called him. Spitting hairs maybe.... The point of course is that Lazarus was dead and it was Jesus that made him alive.

Exactly. That was my point in the other thread. How can anyone know for certain when Lazarus came alive? Jesus made him alive is all we know for sure and He didn't ask Lazarus' permission to do it! :laugh:

 

[mandym]

I think a good analogy is the story of Lazarus. When Jesus shouted "Lazarus, come forth!", Lazarus obviously heard him. That means he was alive before Jesus called him out.

Says who?

 

[Skandelon]

I think a good analogy is the story of Lazarus. When Jesus shouted "Lazarus, come forth!", Lazarus obviously heard him. That means he was alive before Jesus called him out.

Now, if you only had a verse drew that conclusion instead of ones that say things like, "...by believing you may have life in his name."

 

[Jerome]

Not all Calvinists have bought into this 'regeneration before faith' novelty.

Abraham Booth, prominent English Particular Baptist pastor of the late 1700s:

"To contend, indeed, that regeneration must be prior to faith, and to justification, is like maintaining, That the eldest son of a nobleman must partake of the human nature, before he can have that filial relation to his father, which constitutes him an heir to the paternal estate, and entitles him to those honours which are hereditary in the family. For the human nature, derived from his parents, and the relation of a son, being completely of the same date; there is no such thing as priority, or posteriority, respecting them, either as to the order of time, or the order of nature. They are inseparable; nor can the one exist without the other— Thus it is, I conceive, with regards to regeneration, faith in Christ, and justification before God. For, to consider any man as born of God, but not as a child of God; as a child of God, but not believing in Jesus Christ; as believing in Jesus Christ, but not as justified; or as justified, but not as an heir of immortal felicity; is, either to the last degree absurd, or manifestly contrary to apostolic doctrine." —Glad Tidings to Perishing Sinners (The Genuine Gospel)

 

[Winman]

You cannot be regenerated or spiritually alive until your sins are removed. Until your sins are removed you are DEAD in trespasses and sins.

Therefore, faith must precede regeneration. It is believeing and being justified that makes a man spiritually alive, no longer dead in sins.

Jhn 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

The scriptures teach you must believe to have life (regeneration). Calvinism teaches the exact opposite of scripture.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Not all Calvinists have bought into this 'regeneration before faith' novelty.

Abraham Booth, prominent English Particular Baptist pastor of the late 1700s:

"To contend, indeed, that regeneration must be prior to faith, and to justification, is like maintaining, That the eldest son of a nobleman must partake of the human nature, before he can have that filial relation to his father, which constitutes him an heir to the paternal estate, and entitles him to those honours which are hereditary in the family. For the human nature, derived from his parents, and the relation of a son, being completely of the same date; there is no such thing as priority, or posteriority, respecting them, either as to the order of time, or the order of nature. They are inseparable; nor can the one exist without the other— Thus it is, I conceive, with regards to regeneration, faith in Christ, and justification before God. For, to consider any man as born of God, but not as a child of God; as a child of God, but not believing in Jesus Christ; as believing in Jesus Christ, but not as justified; or as justified, but not as an heir of immortal felicity; is, either to the last degree absurd, or manifestly contrary to apostolic doctrine." —Glad Tidings to Perishing Sinners (The Genuine Gospel)

By this characters contention, Id have never been reborn. At least the belief in regeneration prior to a faith statement provides me with some hope of salvation while yours does not. Or perhaps by your pat answer, Im really not saved.

 

[Jerome]

Interesting admission by Beeson Divinity School dean Timothy George (prominent in the so-called 'Founders' faction of Southern Baptist Calvinists):

Timothy George, Theology of the Reformers (Nashville: Broadman, 1988) p. 225:

This being placed into Christ (insitio in Christo) occurs in regeneration which, Calvin was careful to point out, follows from faith as its result

 

[Tom Butler]

Or maybe he came alive as Christ called him. Spitting hairs maybe.... The point of course is that Lazarus was dead and it was Jesus that made him alive.

Yes, agreed. Your point is one that leads me to believe that between the gap between regeneration and saving faith is not very long. It could be concurrent. I grant that it very well could have been that Jesus' call to Lazarus was so loud, it woke him up!

 

[Winman]

Yes, agreed. Your point is one that leads me to believe that between the gap between regeneration and saving faith is not very long. It could be concurrent. I grant that it very well could have been that Jesus' call to Lazarus was so loud, it woke him up!

The dead can hear Jesus.

Jhn 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

A person does not have to be made alive to hear Jesus, it is those dead that hear Jesus that shall be made alive.

This is demonstrated by the young girl that Jesus raised from the dead.

Luk 8:54 And he put them all out, and took her by the hand, and called, saying, Maid, arise.
55 And her spirit came again, and she arose straightway: and he commanded to give her meat.

Was this girl dead or alive when Jesus called to her? She was dead, her spirit was not in her body. The scriptures themselves describe this as dead.

Jam 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

By the scriptures own definition of "dead" this young girl was dead when Jesus called her. Her spirit was not in her body when he called, she was dead. She was not alive again until her spirit "came again" or returned to her body. Therefore she heard Jesus when she was dead. If Total Inability were true, then the scriptures should have showed the girl's spirit returning to her body first and then afterward Jesus calling to her. Only then would she have been able to hear Jesus if Total Inability is true. This is not what is shown. Total Inability is false as shown by scripture.

It was the same with Lazarus, he was dead when Jesus called him, his spirit was not in his body. He heard Jesus and his spirit came again to his body and he was alive again at this point.

The scriptures do not teach you must be made alive to hear Jesus, the scriptures teach the dead can hear Christ, and those that hear shall live.

 

[convicted1]

The dead can hear Jesus.

Jhn 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

A person does not have to be made alive to hear Jesus, it is those dead that hear Jesus that shall be made alive.

This is demonstrated by the young girl that Jesus raised from the dead.

Luk 8:54 And he put them all out, and took her by the hand, and called, saying, Maid, arise.
55 And her spirit came again, and she arose straightway: and he commanded to give her meat.

Was this girl dead or alive when Jesus called to her? She was dead, her spirit was not in her body. The scriptures themselves describe this as dead.

Jam 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

By the scriptures own definition of "dead" this young girl was dead when Jesus called her. Her spirit was not in her body when he called, she was dead. She was not alive again until her spirit "came again" or returned to her body. Therefore she heard Jesus when she was dead. If Total Inability were true, then the scriptures should have showed the girl's spirit returning to her body first and then afterward Jesus calling to her. Only then would she have been able to hear Jesus if Total Inability is true. This is not what is shown. Total Inability is false as shown by scripture.

It was the same with Lazarus, he was dead when Jesus called him, his spirit was not in his body. He heard Jesus and his spirit came again to his body and he was alive again at this point.

The scriptures do not teach you must be made alive to hear Jesus, the scriptures teach the dead can hear Christ, and those that hear shall live.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[Skandelon]

Interesting admission by Beeson Divinity School dean Timothy George (prominent in the so-called 'Founders' faction of Southern Baptist Calvinists):

Timothy George, Theology of the Reformers (Nashville: Broadman, 1988) p. 225:

I always appreciate all your informative quotes. Nothing like good the ol' facts to diffuse all the rhetoric around here. :thumbs:

It seems like I remember reading something from Calvin a while back which indicated this. Did he (and others) separate the concept of regeneration and the effectual calling, where as most neo-Calvinists see them as one in the same?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I always appreciate all your informative quotes. Nothing like good the ol' facts to diffuse all the rhetoric around here. :thumbs:

It seems like I remember reading something from Calvin a while back which indicated this. Did he (and others) separate the concept of regeneration and the effectual calling, where as most neo-Calvinists see them as one in the same?

Why would you even consider the ramblings of a "Murderer" credible? :laugh:

 

[Forest]

The before is not chronological but logical or causal. They can both be simultaneous, but one is the cause and the other is the effect. Much like pulling a trigger of a gun to fire a projectile, regeneration and faith go hand-in-hand.

But if the trigger is never puled, the projectile will never move. Life always preceeds action.

 

[Forest]

Because most Cals do, with the exception of Brother jbh28, the rest I think do hold to this.

They state that they must be quickened/regenerated/made alive to be able to believe the Gospel. And in the regenerated state, one could theorhetically be "alive" for years, and not saved/in Christ. It's all over BB.

Life always preceeds action.