Why do non cals say cals teach regeneration before faith?

[jbh28]

I cor 2:14 is about lost people not carnal. Just because Paul does speak about carnal believers does not in any way make verse 14 about carnal believers. The people spoken of in verse 14 are the "natural man" It says they he can't understand. The carnal believer can but doesn't. Paul is peaking to believers in chapter 2 and he makes a point that its the Spirit that helps us understand. The natural man cannot understand because he doesn't have the Spirit. Paul does speak about carnal believers, and he says that he couldn't address them as spiritual but as carnal. These carnal believers were acting like the unbelievers in verse 14.

If the lost can't even understand the gospel then you have just given them the perfect excuse for not believing it.

1. No excuse Romans 1:20
2. We need to get our doctrine from what the Bible teaches and not trying to keep man from having an excuses.

The Bible is very clear than men are born depraved. No man can come unless drawn(John 6). Now, we can debate if all are drawn or not, but the point still remains that the natural man cannot come to Christ without the Spirit.

 

[Skandelon]

I cor 2:14 is about lost people not carnal.

jbh,

Even if I concede the point that Paul may have been speaking of lost people, it doesn't change that he is addressing 'the deep things of God' (vs. 10), not the clearly revealed gospel. The teachings of the gospel was once a mystery, but what did God do to make those mysteries known?

He picked a group of men, inspired them to write and preserved the scriptures for generations. THOSE are the means God makes the deep things of his spirit known. He discerns these things to prophets and apostles and they make them CLEAR for ANYONE and EVERYONE to READ, HEAR and UNDERSTAND so they stand WITHOUT EXCUSE.

What you seem to forget is that the VERY WORDS that Paul is writing in 1 Cor 2 IS SPIRITUALLY DISCERNED because he is a spiritually inspired apostle. There is NO REASON in the world a lost man couldn't understand the simple gospel message making an appeal to be reconciled. If there were they would have an excuse for not believing it.

1. No excuse Romans 1:20

Exactly, Roman 1:20 proves that God's revelations are 'clearly seen and understood,' and for that very reason they are 'without excuse.' If creation is that clear, how much more so is God's direct and special revelation spoken in clear simple human language?

2. We need to get our doctrine from what the Bible teaches and not trying to keep man from having an excuses.

I agree, which is why I've pointed out your error.

The Bible is very clear than men are born depraved. No man can come unless drawn(John 6). Now, we can debate if all are drawn or not, but the point still remains that the natural man cannot come to Christ without the Spirit.

I agree, no man can come unless drawn. So, what are the means God uses to drawn, enable, invite and make an appeal to man?

THE GOSPEL (which you notice wasn't sent to the world until AFTER Christ was raised up, and the HS came down at Pentecost)

The reason people couldn't come to Christ in John 6 wasn't because of a inborn nature, it was because...well...I know you won't believe me so, I'll let Jesus tell you why:

"37 Even after Jesus had done all these miraculous signs in their presence, they still would not believe in him. 38 This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet: "Lord, who has believed our message and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?" 39 For this reason they could not believe, because, as Isaiah says elsewhere: 40 "He has blinded their eyes and deadened their hearts, so they can neither see with their eyes, nor understand with their hearts, nor turn--and I would heal them."​

You can see that the reason "they could not believe" wasn't because of their inborn nature, as you think. But because God had temporarily blinded them in their rebellion so as to accomplish redemption through them.

 

[Forest]

That is not what 1 Cor. 2:14 says. It says that the natural man cannot understand the deep mysteries of the Spirit unless the Spirit chooses to make those mysteries clear. The Spirit does make the gospel clear to all people by inspiring writers, like Paul, who is writing under inspiration of the Spirit. Paul is speaking to Carnal Christians about their inability to accept the meat (deep things of God). He is not talking about the lost's inability to understand the clear message of the gospel.

If the lost can't even understand the gospel then you have just given them the perfect excuse for not believing it. Why give them that excuse? It's like when my kid says, "I didn't understand what you asked me to do." But I know he understood me perfectly. You are saying they REALLY don't understand what God is saying and that is unbiblical. I say they clearly see and understand it perfectly but they chose to trade the truth in for a lie and for that reason they stand 'without excuse.' The lost are defying a God who is gracious and loving, not one who hates them and has rejected them. You have too high a view of mankind. Don't let them off so easy. Unbelievers have NO excuse for their unbelief and suggesting they can't understand the gospel is too good of an excuse for them.

When it says, the natural man cannot DECERN spiritual things, what does "cannot decern" mean? It seems that you have a higher view of the natural man than I do.

 

[Skandelon]

When it says, the natural man cannot DECERN spiritual things, what does "cannot decern" mean? It seems that you have a higher view of the natural man than I do.

It's like this.

1. Bob is sitting on the street and doesn't know of God or his desires.
2. Peter walks up and teaches him the gospel.
3. Bob now understands God's desire for him to repent and believe and is without any excuse for not accepting it.

If you say Bob didn't understand the gospel due to some innate punishment due to the Fall, then how can he accept? He can't, so he has a perfect excuse. I'm saying HE DOES UNDERSTAND, which is what makes him 'without excuse.' Your view of the unbeliever is much higher than mine because your view of the unbeliever is that he was born that way and can't do anything other than not believe. I think the unbeliever is MUCH worse than that because God has graciously and lovingly given him EVERYTHING He needs to believe and He freely, consciously and deliberately spits in God's face....not because he HAD do because of some predetermined nature given to him by God...but because HE and HE ALONE made a choice to trade the truths in for lies. He stands without a defense because he had EVERYTHING he needed. Yes, my view of unbelievers is MUCH MUCH lower than yours.

 

[Forest]

I cor 2:14 is about lost people not carnal. Just because Paul does speak about carnal believers does not in any way make verse 14 about carnal believers. The people spoken of in verse 14 are the "natural man" It says they he can't understand. The carnal believer can but doesn't. Paul is peaking to believers in chapter 2 and he makes a point that its the Spirit that helps us understand. The natural man cannot understand because he doesn't have the Spirit. Paul does speak about carnal believers, and he says that he couldn't address them as spiritual but as carnal. These carnal believers were acting like the unbelievers in verse 14.


1. No excuse Romans 1:20
2. We need to get our doctrine from what the Bible teaches and not trying to keep man from having an excuses.

The Bible is very clear than men are born depraved. No man can come unless drawn(John 6). Now, we can debate if all are drawn or not, but the point still remains that the natural man cannot come to Christ without the Spirit.

You can never understand the grace of God until you have understood the depravity of man, yes even the depravity of the elect. What makes you so sure that those refered to in Rom 1:20 are not the elect? I don't think the previous verse, 19, is talking about the natural man. The natural man does not have "that which may be known of God manifested in them". There is no sin that will keep the elect from living an everlasting life in heaven. Furthermore in verse 32 it says that they know the judgement of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death (death is a seperation) and in this case it is a seperation from God's fellowship, not eternal punishment. The natural man does not think that commiting such things are worthy of death. The natural man cannot descern spiritual things.

 

[Forest]

It's like this.

1. Bob is sitting on the street and doesn't know of God or his desires.
2. Peter walks up and teaches him the gospel.
3. Bob now understands God's desire for him to repent and believe and is without any excuse for not accepting it.

If you say Bob didn't understand the gospel due to some innate punishment due to the Fall, then how can he accept? He can't, so he has a perfect excuse. I'm saying HE DOES UNDERSTAND, which is what makes him 'without excuse.' Your view of the unbeliever is much higher than mine because your view of the unbeliever is that he was born that way and can't do anything other than not believe. I think the unbeliever is MUCH worse than that because God has graciously and lovingly given him EVERYTHING He needs to believe and He freely, consciously and deliberately spits in God's face....not because he HAD do because of some predetermined nature given to him by God...but because HE and HE ALONE made a choice to trade the truths in for lies. He stands without a defense because he had EVERYTHING he needed. Yes, my view of unbelievers is MUCH MUCH lower than yours.

Those that are without excuse ore not the natural man, but are God's elect. Verse 21 says "when they knew God". The natural man cannot know God. God is a spirit and the natural man cannot descern spiritual things. Verse 19 says "that which may be known of God is manifested in them. The natural man does not have the things known of God manifested in him, not according to 1 Cor 2:14. Also in verse 32 it says that they know the judgement of God. The natural man does not know the judgement of God, he does not even believe in a spiritual God.

 

[Forest]

It's like this.

1. Bob is sitting on the street and doesn't know of God or his desires.
2. Peter walks up and teaches him the gospel.
3. Bob now understands God's desire for him to repent and believe and is without any excuse for not accepting it.

If you say Bob didn't understand the gospel due to some innate punishment due to the Fall, then how can he accept? He can't, so he has a perfect excuse. I'm saying HE DOES UNDERSTAND, which is what makes him 'without excuse.' Your view of the unbeliever is much higher than mine because your view of the unbeliever is that he was born that way and can't do anything other than not believe. I think the unbeliever is MUCH worse than that because God has graciously and lovingly given him EVERYTHING He needs to believe and He freely, consciously and deliberately spits in God's face....not because he HAD do because of some predetermined nature given to him by God...but because HE and HE ALONE made a choice to trade the truths in for lies. He stands without a defense because he had EVERYTHING he needed. Yes, my view of unbelievers is MUCH MUCH lower than yours.

If Bob is a natural man he cannot understand the gospel because it is talking about spiritual things. Just admitt that man cannot be eternally saved except, and only, by God's grace, without the help of man.

 

[Skandelon]

Just admitt that man cannot be eternally saved except, and only, by God's grace.

Ok, I admit it. :sleep:

 

[Forest]

...only if you falsely attribute it to the same characteristics as physical life and death, which spiritual is not to be done.

The Bible says you are dead to sin. Do you sin?

The Bible says that life is IN Christ. Did you have life apart from Him?

When we are born again, we are born into a new life in Christ and we first are spiritually born before we can have any kind of spiritual action. The natural man cannot have spiritual actions before he is born again. Spiritual actions do not preceed spiritual life. No, I did not have a spiritual life apart from Christ.

 

[Forest]

So, someone can be spiritually alive for years, and still not be saved/in Christ?

False! You cannot have spiritual life apart from being in Christ. We are first quickened together with Christ, born again, before we are spiritually alive.

 

[Forest]

Then how do you explain the rich man who died and went to hell?

Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

This rich man is spiritually dead, yet he could lift up his eyes and see, he cried to Abraham, he felt torment and thirst, he could hear Abraham and hold a conversation with him, he could remember, he worried about his brothers, and he prayed. Pretty active for a dead guy, wouldn't you say?

Exactly my point, the rich man was spiritually dead and only had actions of the natural man. We first have to be born a natural birth before we can have any kind of natural actions. We first have to be born spiritually before we can have any kind of spiritually actions.

 

[Forest]

True. And the Life-giving Word of God always precedes life (i.e. the gospel). If someone chooses to trade the truth of that gospel in for lies and remain in their lost condition that is their own fault, they have no excuse (i.e. "God didn't grant me faith, etc").

Responding to the gospel is a spiritual action. We first have to be born of the Spirit before we can have any spiritual actions, such as responding to the gospel.

 

[Forest]

So, are you suggesting that the gospel is not "the Life-giving Word of God" which "always precedes life?" Read John 20:31:
"But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name."

As to the rest of the quote: "If someone chooses to trade the truth of that gospel in for lies and remain in their lost condition that is their own fault, they have no excuse (i.e. "God didn't grant me faith, etc")." Read Romans 1.

John 20:31, He is talking to the disciples. Believing will not produce eternal life, but believing will produce the abundant life that we can enjoy here in this world. There are many acriptures that use the word life to mean our life here in this world. Romans 1:16, For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ; for it is the power of God unto salvation (the meaning of salvation is "deliverance") to every one that believeth. The gospel is the good news of eternal salvation by the grace of God and by believing the gospel we can be delivered from believing in a false doctrine of eternal deliverance by our works, and enjoy an abundant life as we sojourn here in this world. The gospel does not save us eternally. John 5:39, Search the scriptures, for in them ye think ye have eternal life, and they are they which testify of me.

 

[Forest]

Notice the bolded. All life is IN HIM.

You say a person dead in sins cannot do a "spiritual action". Can a person dead TO sin commit a sin?

The person that is dead IN sins cannot do a spiritual action. The person that is dead TO sin cannot commit a sin that Christ has not already paid for. The person who is dead TO sin can commit a sin, but it is not held accountable to him as far as his eternal life is concerned. Spiritual life comes before any spiritual action.

 

[Forest]

No, you said life precedes being "in Him", which is blatantly anti-Scripture.

I did not say that spiritual life precedes being in him. We are quickened together with him. I did say that spiritual life comes before any spiritual actions.

 

[Forest]

Well, didn't you say that we must be quickened(made alive) to understand/hear the gospel. By hearing the Gospel, then we are then saved? Is this what you believe?

How can we be alive, and then later, placed in Christ? Faith is what places us in Him.

Faith is not what places us in Christ, regeneration is what places us in Christ, Eph 2:5. We must already be born again before we can hear and understand the gospel. John 10:26-28, But ye believe not because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you, My sheep (those born again) hear my voice and I know them, and they follow me. And I give unto them eternal life, and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. The gospel does not save us eternally. The gospel is the good news that tells us how that Christ has already saved those that His Father gave to him, John 6:37-41.

 

[Forest]

That is not what 1 Cor. 2:14 says. It says that the natural man cannot understand the deep mysteries of the Spirit unless the Spirit chooses to make those mysteries clear. The Spirit does make the gospel clear to all people by inspiring writers, like Paul, who is writing under inspiration of the Spirit. Paul is speaking to Carnal Christians about their inability to accept the meat (deep things of God). He is not talking about the lost's inability to understand the clear message of the gospel.

If the lost can't even understand the gospel then you have just given them the perfect excuse for not believing it. Why give them that excuse? It's like when my kid says, "I didn't understand what you asked me to do." But I know he understood me perfectly. You are saying they REALLY don't understand what God is saying and that is unbiblical. I say they clearly see and understand it perfectly but they chose to trade the truth in for a lie and for that reason they stand 'without excuse.' The lost are defying a God who is gracious and loving, not one who hates them and has rejected them. You have too high a view of mankind. Don't let them off so easy. Unbelievers have NO excuse for their unbelief and suggesting they can't understand the gospel is too good of an excuse for them.

The Holy Spirit has not revealed to you the truth contained in 1 Cor 2:14 and you are blinded to see the truth. 1 Cor 2:14 says the natural man cannot descern spiritual things, little spiritual things, shallow spiritual things, simple spiritual things and deep spiritual things. If they are spiritual things of any size or form the natural man cannot descern them. I do understand that when you run across a scripture that point blank rejects your theory that you have to attempt to explain it away the best way that you can, so you don't lose face. This scripture is simple and plain enough that a fifth grader can understand it.

 

[Forest]

jbh,

Even if I concede the point that Paul may have been speaking of lost people, it doesn't change that he is addressing 'the deep things of God' (vs. 10), not the clearly revealed gospel. The teachings of the gospel was once a mystery, but what did God do to make those mysteries known?

He picked a group of men, inspired them to write and preserved the scriptures for generations. THOSE are the means God makes the deep things of his spirit known. He discerns these things to prophets and apostles and they make them CLEAR for ANYONE and EVERYONE to READ, HEAR and UNDERSTAND so they stand WITHOUT EXCUSE.

What you seem to forget is that the VERY WORDS that Paul is writing in 1 Cor 2 IS SPIRITUALLY DISCERNED because he is a spiritually inspired apostle. There is NO REASON in the world a lost man couldn't understand the simple gospel message making an appeal to be reconciled. If there were they would have an excuse for not believing it.


Exactly, Roman 1:20 proves that God's revelations are 'clearly seen and understood,' and for that very reason they are 'without excuse.' If creation is that clear, how much more so is God's direct and special revelation spoken in clear simple human language?

I agree, which is why I've pointed out your error.



I agree, no man can come unless drawn. So, what are the means God uses to drawn, enable, invite and make an appeal to man?

THE GOSPEL (which you notice wasn't sent to the world until AFTER Christ was raised up, and the HS came down at Pentecost)

The reason people couldn't come to Christ in John 6 wasn't because of a inborn nature, it was because...well...I know you won't believe me so, I'll let Jesus tell you why:

"37 Even after Jesus had done all these miraculous signs in their presence, they still would not believe in him. 38 This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet: "Lord, who has believed our message and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?" 39 For this reason they could not believe, because, as Isaiah says elsewhere: 40 "He has blinded their eyes and deadened their hearts, so they can neither see with their eyes, nor understand with their hearts, nor turn--and I would heal them."​

You can see that the reason "they could not believe" wasn't because of their inborn nature, as you think. But because God had temporarily blinded them in their rebellion so as to accomplish redemption through them.

God does not temporarily blind the natural man. God temporarily blinds some regenerated persons at times for his own reasons, such as yourself. Thats why you can not understand a plainly stated scripture like 1 Cor 2:14.

 

[convicted1]

Faith is not what places us in Christ, regeneration is what places us in Christ, Eph 2:5. We must already be born again before we can hear and understand the gospel. John 10:26-28, But ye believe not because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you, My sheep (those born again) hear my voice and I know them, and they follow me. And I give unto them eternal life, and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. The gospel does not save us eternally. The gospel is the good news that tells us how that Christ has already saved those that His Father gave to him, John 6:37-41.

You are way off base with what I bolded. We are justified(made free) by faith.

Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.


Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:


Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.


Galatians 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.


Galatians 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Jesus said that the Truth will set you free, and if you are free, you are free indeed.

John 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.

30 As he spake these words, many believed on him.

31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;

32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?

34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.

36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

What was the Truth Jesus was referring to?


John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.



Faith is what justifies us in the sight of God. W/O faith it is impossible to to please Him.

 

[Forest]

You are way off base with what I bolded. We are justified(made free) by faith.





Jesus said that the Truth will set you free, and if you are free, you are free indeed.





What was the Truth Jesus was referring to?


John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.



Faith is what justifies us in the sight of God. W/O faith it is impossible to to please Him.

Man's faith can be responsable for his justification of many things, but Christ is the only one that justifies man for eternal life. Rom 5:9, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. Rom 8:30, whom he called, them he also justified. The truth is that he Washed all sins away from God's elect and secured them all to eternal life. That those he died for will not have to depend upon their own righteousness.