Why do people choose differently?

[AresMan]

Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Rom 3:13 Their throat is an open sepulcher; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
Rom 3:14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
Rom 3:15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
Rom 3:16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
Rom 3:17 And the way of peace have they not known:
Rom 3:18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.
Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

This is man's free will. All willfully, consciously, voluntarily choose against God by default. If anyone chooses otherwise and embraces Jesus Christ, it is because of the Holy Spirit conquering his free will, and giving him true free will.

 

[npetreley]

I have been honest. It seems the only answer you consider to be honest is the one that agrees with you.
I know that you want me say that I chose God not because of my own free will, but because I was one of the "elect". You want me to say that the person who rejects God did so because he was not chosen and therefore not regenerated. You want me say that God gave me the ability to chose Him, but He did not give the ability to the person that rejected Him.
Now, if you were being honest, you would admit that.

Huh? I said your answer was honest, didn't I?

I will admit no such thing. I CERTAINLY don't want you to say any of those things. That wouldn't be honest of you at all, would it? I'm asking you to explain yourself from a free-willer's perspective. You've already explained why the other person makes the wrong decision. Now, what is it about you that made it possible for you [edit: not only possible, but inclined] to make the "right" decision. If the best you can do is "I don't know," then that's fine. But if you can do better, great.

 

[Amy.G]

Huh? I said your answer was honest, didn't I?

I will admit no such thing. I CERTAINLY don't want you to say any of those things. That wouldn't be honest of you at all, would it? I'm asking you to explain yourself from a free-willer's perspective. You've already explained why the other person makes the wrong decision. Now, what is it about you that made it possible for you to make the "right" decision. If the best you can do is "I don't know," then that's fine. But if you can do better, great.

Ok. Sorry.
I'm not sure I can answer you to your satifaction. Have you ever noticed in a family where there's several children how one child is compliant while another child is rebellious? Why is that? Even though they have the same parents, share DNA, they are totally different? Each one has their own character. Why aren't they exactly the same? If you raise your voice to one, they cry. If you raise your voice to another, they yell back. There are even some rebellious children who never outgrow it and die in a rebellious state. Why? Do you have the answers?

I do know that God reveals Himself to every person and it's up to the person to respond or reject God altogether.

I do know that some people are more hard headed than others, some are willing to follow Christ, some are not. The rich young ruler comes to mind. He was given a choice, counted the cost and decided it wasn't worth it to give up his stuff to follow Christ. And scripture says that Jesus looked at him and loved him.

Matthew 23:37-39
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! 38 See! Your house is left to you desolate; 39 for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, 'Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!'"

The Lord wanted Israel to turn to Him, but they would not. Were they not the chosen ones? According to Calvinism, doesn't the Lord always get what He wants? Or maybe, He allows choice.

 

[npetreley]

I do know that some people are more hard headed than others, some are willing to follow Christ, some are not.

Is this your answer? Some are more hard-headed than others? So you made the right decision because you're not as hard-headed as the person who made the wrong decision? Before I respond to this, I want to know if this is your answer. (I feel like Regis -- Is that your final answer?)

 

[Amy.G]

Is this your answer? Some are more hard-headed than others? So you made the right decision because you're not as hard-headed as the person who made the wrong decision? Before I respond to this, I want to know if this is your answer. (I feel like Regis -- Is that your final answer?)

That was only a tiny part of my final answer. Did you read the entire post?

How do you respond to this part?

Matthew 23:37-39
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! 38 See! Your house is left to you desolate; 39 for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, 'Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!'"

The Lord wanted Israel to turn to Him, but they would not. Were they not the chosen ones? According to Calvinism, doesn't the Lord always get what He wants? Or maybe, He allows choice.

 

[npetreley]

Amy, the rest of your answer from scripture is just an attempt to prove free will. It doesn't explain anything about the difference between a person who makes the right choice and a person who makes the wrong one. All it says, according to your soteriology, is that they made the wrong choice.

If you can explain to me the difference - why you made the right choice, that would be answering my question. Or better still, all things being equal, why does one person make the right choice, and another person make the wrong choice? And if all things are not equal, then what makes the difference that they are not equal?

If it helps, the only other answer I've read on here that came close to being an honest/substantial answer was that it's "environmental". One person is raised in a Christian family, is raised with certain values, etc. Another is raised in a more rebellious environment and is taught that he/she is autonomous and has to always look out for #1 (him/herself). Those weren't exactly his words, but that was the gist. I don't really want to go there unless you agree (I don't think you do, but you can surprise me). But that was a solid answer - he gave a reason why he believed one person is more likely to make the right decision than another.

 

[Amy.G]

Amy, the rest of your answer from scripture is just an attempt to prove free will. It doesn't explain anything about the difference between a person who makes the right choice and a person who makes the wrong one. All it says, according to your soteriology, is that they made the wrong choice.

If you can explain to me the difference - why you made the right choice, that would be answering my question. Or better still, all things being equal, why does one person make the right choice, and another person make the wrong choice? And if all things are not equal, then what makes the difference that they are not equal?

And you are attempting to prove limited atonement.
I have answered your questions to the best of my ability. Would you please answer mine? Post #23
Thank you

 

[npetreley]

And you are attempting to prove limited atonement.

Please stop trying to second-guess me. I'm not trying to prove any such thing. I added to my post above - you may want to read what I added.

I have answered your questions to the best of my ability. Would you please answer mine? Post #23
Thank you

I thought I did. What did I leave unanswered?

 

[Amy.G]

If it helps, the only other answer I've read on here that came close to being an honest/substantial answer was that it's "environmental". One person is raised in a Christian family, is raised with certain values, etc. Another is raised in a more rebellious environment and is taught that he/she is autonomous and has to always look out for #1 (him/herself). Those weren't exactly his words, but that was the gist. I don't really want to go there unless you agree (I don't think you do, but you can surprise me). But that was a solid answer - he gave a reason why he believed one person is more likely to make the right decision than another.

This is similar to what I was talking about in a previous post (#23), except in my scenario the different types of children were in the same family, which sort of blows this guys view out of the water.

 

[Amy.G]

Please stop trying to second-guess me. I'm not trying to prove any such thing. I added to my post above - you may want to read what I added.



I thought I did. What did I leave unanswered?

#1

How do you respond to this part?


Quote:
Matthew 23:37-39
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! 38 See! Your house is left to you desolate; 39 for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, 'Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!'"

The Lord wanted Israel to turn to Him, but they would not. Were they not the chosen ones? According to Calvinism, doesn't the Lord always get what He wants? Or maybe, He allows choice.

#2

I'm not sure I can answer you to your satifaction. Have you ever noticed in a family where there's several children how one child is compliant while another child is rebellious? Why is that? Even though they have the same parents, share DNA, they are totally different? Each one has their own character. Why aren't they exactly the same? If you raise your voice to one, they cry. If you raise your voice to another, they yell back. There are even some rebellious children who never outgrow it and die in a rebellious state. Why? Do you have the answers?

 

[npetreley]

This is similar to what I was talking about in a previous post (#23), except in my scenario the different types of children were in the same family, which sort of blows this guys view out of the water.

That's why I assumed you didn't agree with him.

Then what are you getting at with the family example? Is this just a longer version of "I don't know?" Because you say (I paraphrase) "people are just different, do you know why?" That's what I'm asking you to answer. "They just are" isn't an answer. Asking me to explain it isn't an answer, either.

 

[Amy.G]

That's why I assumed you didn't agree with him.

Then what are you getting at with the family example? Is this just a longer version of "I don't know?" Because you say (I paraphrase) "people are just different, do you know why?" That's what I'm asking you to answer. "They just are" isn't an answer. Asking me to explain it isn't an answer, either.

Well, it would be nice if somebody had the answer. :laugh:

I have told what I think to the best of my ability. I'm just asking what you think the answer is. Why do you think I believed when others didn't?

 

[npetreley]

#1

I answered that. All this says, according to your view, is that they made the wrong choice. It doesn't explain anything.

#2

See post above.

 

[npetreley]

I have told what I think to the best of my ability.

That some people are more hard-headed than others? You made the right choice because you're less hard-headed than the person who made the wrong choice? Is that your answer?

I'm just asking what you think the answer is. Why do you think I believed when others didn't?

You should know my answer by now. I'm not interested in how people who believe in election explain it. I'm interested in how a free-willer explains it.

 

[Amy.G]

I answered that. All this says, according to your view, is that they made the wrong choice. It doesn't explain anything.


See post above.

It explains free will. God wanted one thing. The Israelites excercised their own will and did not give God what He wanted.

 

[npetreley]

It explains free will. God wanted one thing. The Israelites excercised their own will and did not give God what He wanted.

That's what I said. What it does not do is answer my question. Given that two people are offered Christ, why does one make the "right" choice, but the other makes the "wrong" choice. I got a solid answer for why people make the wrong choice (pride, etc.). Now, all I want is a solid answer as to what it is about people that is different than the prideful/etc. person that they would make the right choice? Do they have less pride? Are they stronger and more able to overcome their pride? Are they more humble? Are they smarter? What is it that sets them apart such that they would make the right choice?

Edit: I'm heading for bed. I'll check into this sometime tomorrow.

 

[Amy.G]

That's what I said. What it does not do is answer my question. Given that two people are offered Christ, why does one make the "right" choice, but the other makes the "wrong" choice. I got a solid answer for why people make the wrong choice (pride, etc.). Now, all I want is a solid answer as to what it is about people that is different than the prideful/etc. person that they would make the right choice? Do they have less pride? Are they stronger and more able to overcome their pride? Are they more humble? Are they smarter? What is it that sets them apart such that they would make the right choice?

Edit: I'm heading for bed. I'll check into this sometime tomorrow.

Ok, me too. I'll just post this before I forget. It's a long time 'til morning!:laugh:

At this moment, I cannot give you scriptural proof as to why one person rejects God and another receives Him. I cannot tell you why God made the grass green and dirt brown. But, nevertheless, He knows and maybe someday He'll explain it all to me. In the meantime, maybe someone else will be able to answer your question.
Sleep well.

 

[Tom Butler]

Way back in post #12 I quoted I Cor 4:7

I Cor 4:7: "For who maketh the to differ from another? and what has thou that thou didst not receive?....."
----
Paul asked, not what makes one different, but who makes one different from another. And he says immediately afterward that whatever we have was given to us.

Anybody want to take a crack at who the who is? And since what we have is what we received, who is the giver?

 

[npetreley]

Anybody want to take a crack at who the who is? And since what we have is what we received, who is the giver?

I saw that, but there's a big gap between the free-willer view and that verse. I'm trying to bridge that gap a little at a time. No fair jumping to the last page.

 

[npetreley]

At this moment, I cannot give you scriptural proof as to why one person rejects God and another receives Him. I cannot tell you why God made the grass green and dirt brown. But, nevertheless, He knows and maybe someday He'll explain it all to me. In the meantime, maybe someone else will be able to answer your question.
Sleep well.

It's interesting that your comparison is that God made grass green and dirt brown.

Let me ask you the question another way. Do you believe that we are who we are because of the choices we make? That's a very popular theme in movies and novels these days, but I don't want to assume you agree with it. There's a follow-up point but I don't want to waste time on it if you don't believe that.