Why do people choose differently?

[AresMan]

Obviously. Like with this total nonsense:


Why does one choose to accept and another choose to reject? Because they made a choice.

Brilliant reasoning, sherlock.

I'm done wasting my time with your nonsense. Although the fact that you can't answer the question speaks volumes, anyway, so I guess it accomplished something.

In other words:

Q. Why does one choose Christ?
A. Because he chose Christ.

The answer to the question is the question itself, and begs the question.

Here was another answer:
A. Because I didn't want to go to hell. I wanted to go to heaven.

While the answer contains truth, it still does not answer the question. This answer already makes the assumption that one actually believes that Jesus is the Christ, and that His death on the Cross and resurrection is effectual to atone for a sinner.

This is still begging the question. Why does a person believe that the Gospel is true as presented? One "choosing Christ" because he doesn't want to go to hell and wants to go to heaven is directly contingent upon, and an accopanying result of, an established belief in the record of Who Christ is and what He did. Why does anyone actually believe that this record is true?

 

[Allan]

Why does one choose to accept and another choose to reject? Because they made a choice.

There is NO 'why' givin in scripture. it says THEY "choose life OR death", NOT God chooses them for life or death. The answer is unique to each person but it maintains the same truth. Some accept and some rejected the truths God revealed.

I'm done wasting my time with your nonsense. Although the fact that you can't answer the question speaks volumes, anyway, so I guess it accomplished something.

It is only non-sense to you because you are looking for an answer that has NO biblical basis You are trying to make the very one you are asking the question to, give you YOUR answer and it will not happen scriturally.


Well lets have just as much fun...

If God did not choose you arbitrarily, then 'WHY' did God choose you?
If you say for His plan, purpose and pleasure. Please tell us "WHY" God choose you. God has a reason for choosing you thereby making something about you different from those who will be lost. So "WHY"?

If you can not answer the "WHY", then God did He choosing arbitrarily.

Scripture only tells us some things, and the "why" question is answered in BOTH (yours and mine) in the one doing the choosing.

PS... We are a long way from being done

 

[Allan]

In other words:

Q. Why does one choose Christ?
A. Because he chose Christ.

The answer to the question is the question itself, and begs the question.

The answer isn't what I said.

I said the answer resides in the one who "choose" not in the fact he chose.

It isn't about being more smart, humble, ext... or having less prde, selfishness, ext... It is about whether a person will believe.

Everyone can be more or less yet that is not the issue but whether they will beleive. It is up to each person to make that choice according to the spiritual truth God has revealed to them they but are FREE to choose. There is nothing constraining them one way or another when God sets before them life and death. They are free to choose whether they will believe/obey. Until then they can ONLY believe what distorted truths the Natural man receives through its natural means. It is due to this man has no choice till God reveals truth to man supernaturally thereby giving man something he never had before - choice.

Now if the natural man flees from God and will does not know God. How is it that in the day of Judgment (Rom 1) Jesus tells a great many (Mat 7) who stated Lord (or My Lord) have we not preached, cast out demons, and done supernatural works in your authority. Jesus then states depart...I never knew you.

I thought the natural man wouldn't even seek out God?
How could they preach if they can know nothing concerning God's glory, Godhead, and even judgment?
How is it that we have unsaved church members in churches?

How can these things be and the unregenerate be amoung the brethren claiming to be Gods people and doing the work of the ministry as well. If we go by what your view alwsays states this is a complete contradictory action, otherwise they would have run from God and NEVER call Him their own?

"WHY" do they do this if they will not seek after God?

 

[Rippon]

They were never His in the first place . They did not seek after the true God . It is just like people who pray but their "prayers" only bounce off the walls , they are sending up abominations . It's like those who "do good " . Without the knowledge of the true God and wanting to honor Him in what they do -- it is useless and wicked . People can seek after many things . What counts is God -- the seeker of the souls of some people . No one seeks after God . But , thankfully , the Lord draws some unto Himself . The Father enables some to come unto Jesus . He draws them inexorably to Himself .

 

[Brother Bob]

Rippon;
Please tell me if that passes down to your children, grandchildren etc. Is this "elect" family orinated or individually?

 

[PASTOR MHG]

They were never His in the first place . They did not seek after the true God . It is just like people who pray but their "prayers" only bounce off the walls , they are sending up abominations . It's like those who "do good " . Without the knowledge of the true God and wanting to honor Him in what they do -- it is useless and wicked . People can seek after many things . What counts is God -- the seeker of the souls of some people . No one seeks after God . But , thankfully , the Lord draws some unto Himself . The Father enables some to come unto Jesus . He draws them inexorably to Himself .

No One??? You mean "no one" as in "Cornelius the no one" or the
"Faithful Centurion the no one." Pretty bold to call the prayers of Cornelius an abomination when the Scripture says they were a memorial.

 

[webdog]

Now if the natural man flees from God and will does not know God. How is it that in the day of Judgment (Rom 1) Jesus tells a great many (Mat 7) who stated Lord (or My Lord) have we not preached, cast out demons, and done supernatural works in your authority. Jesus then states depart...I never knew you.

I thought the natural man wouldn't even seek out God?
How could they preach if they can know nothing concerning God's glory, Godhead, and even judgment?
How is it that we have unsaved church members in churches?

How can these things be and the unregenerate be amoung the brethren claiming to be Gods people and doing the work of the ministry as well. If we go by what your view alwsays states this is a complete contradictory action, otherwise they would have run from God and NEVER call Him their own?

"WHY" do they do this if they will not seek after God?

Great points. I await the calvinist wiggle answers...

 

[AresMan]

No One??? You mean "no one" as in "Cornelius the no one" or the
"Faithful Centurion the no one." Pretty bold to call the prayers of Cornelius an abomination when the Scripture says they were a memorial.

This is what Rippon said in full:

No one seeks after God . But , thankfully , the Lord draws some unto Himself . The Father enables some to come unto Jesus . He draws them inexorably to Himself. [emphasis mine]

You are taking his statement out of context. "No one seeks after God" by default. Now, the fact that there are, indeed, those who seek after God is an exception to the rule. One seeking after God indicates that God is doing something in opposition to the rule of sin nature: He is drawing him to Himself.

 

[Allan]

This is what Rippon said in full:

You are taking his statement out of context. "No one seeks after God" by default. Now, the fact that there are, indeed, those who seek after God is an exception to the rule. One seeking after God indicates that God is doing something in opposition to the rule of sin nature: He is drawing him to Himself.

So then, there ARE unelect, unsaved people NOT draw of God who seek after Him?

And now there is an exception to the rule?? How does it stand in the contetion that no one seek after after God BECAUSE they are haters of God (the natural man is at emnity with God) unless God change their nature that they will SEEK after Him.

But let me back up...

So, in your theology, if one is seeking God (by which I defined and Rippon responded - as a person who calls God his Lord and also partakes in the work of the ministry) then God is doing something with them. Ergo - He is drawing them unto himself. Now you issue comes when scritpure says that many shall come to me in that day saying Lord Lord, have we not... in your name (or according to your authority) and He shall say to them (whom He was drawing to Himself) depart from Me...I never knew you.

How can you have apostates in the church or false teachers and prophets if no man seeks after God unless God change his nature? YOU CAN'T.
By the very nature of these basis statements either you are for God or against Him. And those against Him will not seek Him and therefore never be apart nor partake of the Church in any manner because they are haters of God. AND YET, scripture says the churches have them and proclaims they are coming even to the point of the great apostacy of the church.

Aside from the false teachers and prophets who are coming in deliberately to lead people away from the truth, "why' are the others (the many) calling God their Lord (Lord Lord)and doing the ministry of the church (preaching, casting out, supernatural works - Mat 7) ??

'Why' are they seeking after God and seeking to do the works of God if they will not receive anything of God because they are haters of God?

 

[Allan]

They were never His in the first place . They did not seek after the true God . It is just like people who pray but their "prayers" only bounce off the walls , they are sending up abominations . It's like those who "do good " . Without the knowledge of the true God and wanting to honor Him in what they do -- it is useless and wicked . People can seek after many things . What counts is God -- the seeker of the souls of some people . No one seeks after God . But , thankfully , the Lord draws some unto Himself . The Father enables some to come unto Jesus . He draws them inexorably to Himself .

And yet, they called Him their Lord, who (according to you) they should have hated and fled from.

No man seeks after God. But these did (albeit unsavingly) but they still sought. 'why'?

No man will pray to God because no man seeks after God.

Man can not know anything spiritual because his carnal mind will not recieve.
This includes Gods glory, His Eternal power, the Godhead, God Himself, and even knowing His judgment against all those who do these things are worthy of death.


And yet scripture says in Romans 1:18-33 that the lost unsaved man who rejects God and His truth, knows all these things because God reveals them to that man. And that when the man rejects these truths, THEN God gives them over to their lust.

So 'why' the sudden change from NEVER seeking God to (lets make it easy) say... praying to God, or even becoming a member of a church and living a life like a believer would for 'their' Lord.

'Why' will they do that, if the no man seeks after God, no man can decern spiritual things because he is carnally minded, and they are at emnity with God?

 

[webdog]

Allan must be taking Karate, because his latest posts of "kickin".

 

[reformedbeliever]

So then, there ARE unelect, unsaved people NOT draw of God who seek after Him?

And now there is an exception to the rule?? How does it stand in the contetion that no one seek after after God BECAUSE they are haters of God (the natural man is at emnity with God) unless God change their nature that they will SEEK after Him.

But let me back up...

So, in your theology, if one is seeking God (by which I defined and Rippon responded - as a person who calls God his Lord and also partakes in the work of the ministry) then God is doing something with them. Ergo - He is drawing them unto himself. Now you issue comes when scritpure says that many shall come to me in that day saying Lord Lord, have we not... in your name (or according to your authority) and He shall say to them (whom He was drawing to Himself) depart from Me...I never knew you.

How can you have apostates in the church or false teachers and prophets if no man seeks after God unless God change his nature? YOU CAN'T.
By the very nature of these basis statements either you are for God or against Him. And those against Him will not seek Him and therefore never be apart nor partake of the Church in any manner because they are haters of God. AND YET, scripture says the churches have them and proclaims they are coming even to the point of the great apostacy of the church.

Aside from the false teachers and prophets who are coming in deliberately to lead people away from the truth, "why' are the others (the many) calling God their Lord (Lord Lord)and doing the ministry of the church (preaching, casting out, supernatural works - Mat 7) ??

'Why' are they seeking after God and seeking to do the works of God if they will not receive anything of God because they are haters of God?

Because they were not truly seeking the one true God. They were seeking fortune and fame.

 

[reformedbeliever]

And yet, they called Him their Lord, who (according to you) they should have hated and fled from.

No man seeks after God. But these did (albeit unsavingly) but they still sought. 'why'?

No man will pray to God because no man seeks after God.

Man can not know anything spiritual because his carnal mind will not recieve.
This includes Gods glory, His Eternal power, the Godhead, God Himself, and even knowing His judgment against all those who do these things are worthy of death.


And yet scripture says in Romans 1:18-33 that the lost unsaved man who rejects God and His truth, knows all these things because God reveals them to that man. And that when the man rejects these truths, THEN God gives them over to their lust.

So 'why' the sudden change from NEVER seeking God to (lets make it easy) say... praying to God, or even becoming a member of a church and living a life like a believer would for 'their' Lord.

'Why' will they do that, if the no man seeks after God, no man can decern spiritual things because he is carnally minded, and they are at emnity with God?

They love the social club. They love attention, and or seeking fortune or fame. I know of many business owners who say that church is one of the best places for business contacts.
We may be getting a little off the OP huh? That is easy to do when you can not answer the questions. Or you could do like Web.... just sit back and take jabs with nothing of substance to offer.

 

[webdog]

Or you could do like Web.... just sit back and take jabs with nothing of substance to offer.

Taking jabs? Where? I don't think I have to add anything to what Allan stated. He nailed it. If you are referring to the "wiggle" statement, I hardly call that a "jab", matter of fact you proved my point quite nicely with your answer .

 

[webdog]

Because they were not truly seeking the one true God. They were seeking fortune and fame.

You should either supply the Scripture stating they were seeking fortune or fame, or qualify your answer with an IMO. The text never even insinutates that.

 

[johnp.]

No He does not. He sends men to hell for rejecting His Son and the Truth that He is.

No, He chose those for Hell before He took their deeds into account. RO 5:18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men...

No man seeks after God. But these did (albeit unsavingly) but they still sought. 'why'?

No man seeks after God so says scripture. One cannot seek after God unsavingly. Why seek Him He is at the tip of one's tongue, all else is evasion and pretense and a rather large dose of self-righteousness?

And yet scripture says in Romans 1:18-33 that the lost unsaved man who rejects God and His truth, knows all these things because God reveals them to that man. And that when the man rejects these truths, THEN God gives them over to their lust.

And the original lie was that we would be like God knowing good and evil. What he didn't tell them was that we would not be able to do the good only the evil.
RO 7:14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
Why don't all the free willers give us their record of their 'moment of decision' so that we can see if there is a common thread to it? If it comes down to circumstances then we could introduce those circumstances in our evangelism. If it is something like a fear of death we could send the boys round before we door-to-door. But many an old man dies without repenting, why is that? It is because they would rather go to Hell than have anything to do with Him upstairs. It's not called total depravity for nothing.

I've just had a predestined week off.

john.

 

[johnp.]

Eph 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

In my opinion webdog.

john.

 

[Allan]

Because they were not truly seeking the one true God. They were seeking fortune and fame.

Hey Reformed, long time no see.

If they were not truly seeking God, then 'why' on that day of Judgment will they say to Jesus "Lord Lord...in your name".

If they of the natural man can not seek after God, then the paramont question here is:
"Why" are they preaching the Word of the Lord?
"Why" are they casting out demons?
And 'Why" are they doing supernatural works IN HIS NAME?

They are doing it FOR HIM. Not fame, glory, or anything else. Scripture states THESE individuals refered to HERE are doing it FOR Jesus and thinking they are doing through His authority. They THINK they are His.

The Natural man would make no such assumption considering he hates God, does not recieve the things of God, is at emnity with God, and thereby the natural man will not seek after God. So by virture of this belief (that only the man who is regenerated before salvation will seek and obey the things of God) There should never be a non-believer who professes Christ or prayed a prayer to him. But there are!

So "why" are there those NOT saved who seek, pray, or do the works a believer would when they are seeking after God, why do they do it?
Why would Jesus have to even say anything to those who thought they were His and were not, when they should not have even been doing anything In His Name.

It maintains with the OP as to the "why" and it is still unanswered.

 

[Allan]

They love the social club. They love attention, and or seeking fortune or fame. I know of many business owners who say that church is one of the best places for business contacts.
We may be getting a little off the OP huh? That is easy to do when you can not answer the questions. Or you could do like Web.... just sit back and take jabs with nothing of substance to offer.

Oh, I quite agree there are those who do this. But Jesus in Mat 7 is speaking specifically of the many who will say Lord...we did all that we did IN YOUR NAME."
Those who call Him, Lord and their declaration of them assuming He was THEIR Lord is evedence by them doing all they did - In His Name.

This does not line up with the Cal view of the natural man can only be a hater of God who flees from the light, unless of course there is more to the story which has been possibly neglected. IMO

No, we are still on the OP, but looking at it from the other side of the same coin.

And I did answer the question. I just did not give the answer you assume, and I even gave a large amount of scirpture with it.

 

[Allan]

No, He chose those for Hell before He took their deeds into account. RO 5:18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men...

You never finish the verse. It know why you don't since it speaks specifically agianst your view so you have to cut it in half, but it still bugs me.
Here is the verse as it is:

Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. - NIV

So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men - NASV

Then as one man's trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one man's act of righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men. - RSV  

 

No man seeks after God so says scripture. One cannot seek after God unsavingly. Why seek Him He is at the tip of one's tongue, all else is evasion and pretense and a rather large dose of self-righteousness?

You are right no man seeks after God of himself. But that does not speak to the issue of God reaching out to man. That changes the matter and even you will agree with that.

Thus your verse given in its fullness shows God isn't reaching out to just some but all. :smilewinkgrin:

And the original lie was that we would be like God knowing good and evil. What he didn't tell them was that we would not be able to do the good only the evil

Not true. We can do no salvic good. But scripture states that man does have a form of righteousness. But in the salvic sence it is nothing but filthy rags.
Jesus even states "what man would give his child a stone if he asked for bread... and then compared Gods goodness and giving to that of mans (*gasp).
There are those who beleive man can do no good of any kind unless God make them, but they have no good reason for believing this since scripture contradicts them infatically.

RO 7:14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

I love Romans 7, it speaks DIRECTLY to the FACT though man CAN NOT DO good mans can will or desire to do that which he can not.

For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but [how] to perform that which is good I find not.King James Version 1611, 1769

NKJV - Rom 7:18 - For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find.New King James Version © 1982 Thomas Nelson

NLT - Rom 7:18 - I know I am rotten through and through so far as my old sinful nature is concerned. No matter which way I turn, I can't make myself do right. I want to, but I can't.
New Living Translation © 1996 Tyndale Charitable Trust

NIV - Rom 7:18 - I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.
New International Version © 1973, 1978, 1984 International Bible Society

ESV - Rom 7:18 - For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out.
The Holy Bible, English Standard Version © 2001 Crossway Bibles

NASB - Rom 7:18 - For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good {is} not.
New American Standard Bible © 1995 Lockman Foundation

RSV - Rom 7:18 - For I know that nothing good dwells within me, that is, in my flesh. I can will what is right, but I cannot do it.
Revised Standard Version © 1947, 1952.

ASV - Rom 7:18 - For I know that in me, that is, in my flesh, dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me, but to do that which is good [is] not.
American Standard Version 1901 Info

Young - Rom 7:18 - for I have known that there doth not dwell in me, that is, in my flesh, good: for to will is present with me, and to work that which is right I do not find,
Robert Young Literal Translation 1862, 1887, 1898 Info

Darby - Rom 7:18 - For I know that in me, that is, in my flesh, good does not dwell: for to will is there with me, but to do right [I find] not.
J.N.Darby Translation 1890 Info

Webster - Rom 7:18 - For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but [how] to perform that which is good, I find not.
Noah Webster Version 1833 Info

HNV - Rom 7:18 - For I know that in me, that is, in my flesh, dwells no good thing. For desire is present with me, but I don't find it doing that which is good.
Hebrew Names Version 2000 Info

All of these say the same thing. Paul states that sinful man may desire or will to do good (salvic works) but he can not DO them. Now what happens when God sets before man a choice through which he DOES NOTHING but must only beleive God and that He (God) will do all those salvic good thing both TO and FOR Him. good example Duet 30:19-20 but that is one of many

Now is faith/belief a work, not according to scripture and is why it is considered the only thing a man can do as belief is possible of EVERY man.
Rom 4: 4-5

Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Rom 4:5 ¶ But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

or in the NASB

4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due.
5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,
6 just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

Faith/belief is not a work.