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Why do people go to hell? For sinning? For being born children of the devil?
- Thread starter zrs6v4
- Start date
I do not see any biblical support for this idea.To say that the church has missed the true meaning of these words does not seem likely.
Thinking through the bible... I do not see this corrective idea. Am I missing something?
The Fall
The Flood
Sodom and Gommorah
Korah
As you might suspect, I would align myself with those like AWPink
http://www.pbministries.org/books/pink/Eternal_Punishment/punish_01.htm
it is a good read...although I do not "enjoy" reading about the destruction of the wicked....The fact that Jesus WEPT over Jerusalem indicates the severity of what is coming.
Ps.
Michael[ good link about the anabaptists on the other thread]. It was helpful:wavey:
Michael Wrenn
New Member
Why do you suppose that words which clearly do not mean eternal in the original Greek are translated as eternal in less literal versions? I believe it's because those doing so had an agenda.
Yes, I love the Anabaptists. I don't agree with everything they taught -- which would be impossible anyway because of their diversity. But they were interested in a true Reformation and a determination to get back to what Jesus really taught, and to follow Him -- not in a half-baked Reformation such as the Magisterial Reformers carried out, holding onto RC errors, and killing others for Jesus.
Oh, about the examples you gave: You make a valid point. But I never said God didn't judge people. And I don't think He judges people because they can't repent but because they don't repent.
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God respects their WILL...and their WILL is to be left Alone...He gives them the desires of their heart...because... He loves them. They hate your God, and they do not want to serve him. They want NOTHING more than to be the arbiters of their own little world, their own little reality...they want to "be as gods" just as Eve did.
You think you are showing them mercy???. You are not. You are merely trading one form of torture for another. Your form of Eternity is no less cruel than the other, in their miniscule and prideful little minds. You will not work so hard to Theologically free them from it when you realize that, quite frankly, they don't want your help. They don't want God's love, they don't want Jesus's. Take it from someone who knows how utterly damnable and foolish Pride really is...Take it from a Pridefully sin-sick man...I know how the wretched really think...I know that sin like the back of my hand. You may not really comprehend how utterly irrational Pride really is. Pride sends men to Eternal Hell faster than Pederasty, rape, murder, greed, theft or drunkenness....Go to square one...and look really hard at Cain, look at Esau...look at Saul.."when thou wast little in thine own eyes..." Ring a bell? It does to me.
For all things Holy...stop arguing about the "divisions and strifes of words" in a language none of us originally actually speak, (Greek)....Look at BOOK 1, BOOK UNO...BOOK EINZ...the translation in ENGLISH will do....
How does a man refuse the free gift of Salvation???? By being so self-important that he demand he be the god of his own little universe. Isn't the first of the abominations a "Proud look?" Take it from the Proud..."Sin lieth at the door", and we would kill our own brother (whom we do actually love)...only to try to force God to accept our sacrifice...we usually fail when we do so...but we try, OH do we try.
We Prideful types are the true "Chiefs" of sinners. Paul was mistaken if he thought anyone else was...NO, it is the truly and deeply Prideful like me....Unless, Paul understood Pride...then I will arrogantly and shame-facedly consider him and all else who fail to grasp this to be the less-informed, and I woud proudly "withstand him to the face" as he did the Apostle Peter. If he REALLY didn't "GET" Pride...then he knows not what it means to sin nor damn oneself like I do. We Prideful will shake our fists for an Eternity just to be "like gods"....For an Eternity.
We do this merely to exist as our own little miserable men in our own little wretched world....Demanding that "GOD" leave us Alone...He will give us what we want...he will let us wallow in our own self-sufficiency, and we will suffer for it.
And when you (by God's grace) offer us an escape from it....we will shake our fists and curse your name, and that of the God you worship. The Prideful....DON'T WANT!!! your merciful escape.....and it is Pride...and only Pride that sends men to hell....or ever did. If the gift of Salvation is truly free, (and it is)...then only self-reliance will prevent a man from taking it.
The tree was:
"Good for food"
"Pleasant to the eyes"
but MOST importantly...oh...so MOST importantly...
"Desired to make one wise"....
You think you are showing them mercy???. You are not. You are merely trading one form of torture for another. Your form of Eternity is no less cruel than the other, in their miniscule and prideful little minds. You will not work so hard to Theologically free them from it when you realize that, quite frankly, they don't want your help. They don't want God's love, they don't want Jesus's. Take it from someone who knows how utterly damnable and foolish Pride really is...Take it from a Pridefully sin-sick man...I know how the wretched really think...I know that sin like the back of my hand. You may not really comprehend how utterly irrational Pride really is. Pride sends men to Eternal Hell faster than Pederasty, rape, murder, greed, theft or drunkenness....Go to square one...and look really hard at Cain, look at Esau...look at Saul.."when thou wast little in thine own eyes..." Ring a bell? It does to me.
For all things Holy...stop arguing about the "divisions and strifes of words" in a language none of us originally actually speak, (Greek)....Look at BOOK 1, BOOK UNO...BOOK EINZ...the translation in ENGLISH will do....
How does a man refuse the free gift of Salvation???? By being so self-important that he demand he be the god of his own little universe. Isn't the first of the abominations a "Proud look?" Take it from the Proud..."Sin lieth at the door", and we would kill our own brother (whom we do actually love)...only to try to force God to accept our sacrifice...we usually fail when we do so...but we try, OH do we try.
We Prideful types are the true "Chiefs" of sinners. Paul was mistaken if he thought anyone else was...NO, it is the truly and deeply Prideful like me....Unless, Paul understood Pride...then I will arrogantly and shame-facedly consider him and all else who fail to grasp this to be the less-informed, and I woud proudly "withstand him to the face" as he did the Apostle Peter. If he REALLY didn't "GET" Pride...then he knows not what it means to sin nor damn oneself like I do. We Prideful will shake our fists for an Eternity just to be "like gods"....For an Eternity.
We do this merely to exist as our own little miserable men in our own little wretched world....Demanding that "GOD" leave us Alone...He will give us what we want...he will let us wallow in our own self-sufficiency, and we will suffer for it.
And when you (by God's grace) offer us an escape from it....we will shake our fists and curse your name, and that of the God you worship. The Prideful....DON'T WANT!!! your merciful escape.....and it is Pride...and only Pride that sends men to hell....or ever did. If the gift of Salvation is truly free, (and it is)...then only self-reliance will prevent a man from taking it.
The tree was:
"Good for food"
"Pleasant to the eyes"
but MOST importantly...oh...so MOST importantly...
"Desired to make one wise"....
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I understand your point. I disagree and you cant blame any of us who do bc you really didnt lay down a good argument for your view. So basically you do believe in eternal hell bc nobody in hell will be able to repent therefore there punishment is eternal. I dont see hell biblically as Gods way of eternal corrective punishment but rather a just retribution long deserved by unredeemed fallen mankind.
This is where id like to discuss. You say its pagan and monstrous to say God gives a just and eternal punishment to sinners for their sins. This is very close to my op bc that is the response i get from unbelievers (im not calling you an unbeliever). Why is the eternal punishment (retribution) so bad? I feel like that line of thinking comes from a lack of understanding of sin and holiness.
Michael Wrenn
New Member
See my first answer, in red, within your quoted post above.
I understand sin and holiness. I also believe that both God's justice and his mercy far surpasses ours. I don't believe that the Bible teaches an eternal hell -- unconditionally.
Do you believe that the punishment should fit the crime? Do you believe God believes that?
How can the sin committed during a limited human life span -- which is merely a flash of light in an eternity -- merit eternal punishment? Apparently Jesus didn't hold that it did, else why would he use the term, aionios kolasis, meaning age-long chastisement, when he spoke of God's judgment?
I would disagree with you Hank. John 3:19 does not say we sin because we love darkness, it says the very opposite, that we love darkness because we sin. Men sin, and then they come to love sin, this is why they continue in sin.
No man is born with a bottle of Jack Daniels in his hand loving to drink. No, men drink alcohol and come to love getting drunk afterward.
Jesus never said we sin because we are slaves or servants to sin, he said the exact opposite, that when we sin we become servants or slaves to sin. The moment any man sins, he comes under the death penalty, he is held in this condemnation of which there is no escape, except to trust that Jesus died for our sins. This is why death is eternal, unless you believe on Jesus you are kept under the dominion and penalty of sin, which is death.
Jhn 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
Because men teach the exact opposite of what Jesus actually said, this is why so many are confused. The moment a man sins he "sells himself" to sin and now belongs to sin. Sin has complete dominion over the man, is held in his clutches, is a captive. You are now under the death penalty (the wages of sin is death) with no escape. This is why any man who dies in his sin will be separated from God for eternity.
When we trust Jesus we are baptized into his body. We died to sin with him when he died, and now are raised together with him. We are no longer under the law, but now under grace.
Again, we do not sin because we are born slaves to sin, we become slaves and captives to sin once we sin. Paul said the exact same thing as Jesus.
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
We do not sin because we are born sinners. When we yield (showing ability) to sin we become servants or slaves to sin. We are now held in it's clutches, sin literally owns us. But when we trust Christ we are made free from sin.
There is a reason that sin is compared to the selling of slaves or servants in scripture. When you sin, you have sold yourself to sin and now belong to him. The only wage he pays is death. To be freed you must sell yourself to Jesus and be made free from sin.
Actually I said neither winmam. Look at my note again. It is inconclusive from this passage alone concerning how we can to be in that darkness.
The question was "why do people go to hell"? Not what makes us love the darkness or sin?
People are condemned and go to hell because they love darkness rather light
John 3:19 And this is the condemnation... men loved darkness rather than light
Admitedly I used the words "inherent ability" - implying from Adam.
But if not from Adam from whom?
Certainly not from God.
Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Our children do not have to be taught to sin, in fact we as parents take a lot of time attempting to subdue the behavior coming out of the demonstration that they are indeed sinners.
HankD
Our children do not have to be taught to sin, in fact we as parents take a lot of time attempting to subdue the behavior coming out of the demonstration that they are indeed sinners.
HankD
Reply to OP
This is simply a reply to the OP, I have not read the thread, so if any of this is redundant, sorry about that.
Lots of times a man-made doctrine creates paradoxes such that the logical consequences of the doctrine make no sense because they conflict with specific passages of scripture. For example, God is just and the justifier of the unjust. But one view of Hades/Gehenna is that baby's that die before "they have done anything good or bad" are "punished forever" because they were conceived in iniquity. This makes no sense and hence provides a barrier to evangelism.
So lets back up and consider what the Bible actually says, rather than try to sell a doctrine that is inconsistent with what the Bible says.
Some folks, trying to solve the problem embrace universal salvation, so after folks are "purified" in the lake of fire, they pop up and go to heaven. Total hogwash in my opinion but you will find people pushing this view.
Then we have others that say the Bible teaches eternal torment, so a baby that dies is tormented for eternity. They say if you do not accept this "truth" you are applying human reasoning to God. In other words, accept this "pig in a poke" view, i.e. a mystery, even though it hinders evangelism.
But between these two man-made doctrines we find what the Bible actually says. First we must come to grips with the meaning of the Greek word that is translated eternal, as in John 3:16. It says we never die, but have "eternal" life. That makes it very clear that a person who does not die lives on and on and forever. Thus "eternal" means eternal. So redefining the meaning of that word does not provide any actual solution to the problem.
Second, we must come to grips with the Greek word translated "punishment" as in eternal punishment. Some claim the word means "torment" but that is incorrect. Its root meaning is "to prune," "restrain" or "confine." Thus to be confined to eternal darkness, i.e. separated from God who is light, could be the meaning of "eternal punishment."
So if we accept this view, then at least one "punishment" in Hades/Gehenna is eternal separation from God. But this does not address the clear teaching that the lost are "punished" (consciously tormented). And the Bible says we are punished for our deeds, i.e. misdeeds.
So if we put these two very different "punishments" (1) eternal separation, and (2) specific torment for our sins, together, we see a third alternative. We are punished justly for our sins, with those who have sinned less having a "more tolerable" situation.
So now lets consider the baby or the feeble minded who never believed and thus were "condemned already." They would not go to heaven because of unbelief. But they would not be consciously tormented because they had done nothing wrong in the eyes of God. Thus they would simply be "annihilated," i.e. they would rest in peace, but still "suffer" the eternal punishment of separation from God.
Well if this view is actually what the Bible teaches, how come so many people claim "eternal torment" is taught in scripture? It is certainly taught for Satan and his cohorts. But do humans receive the exact say "punishment?"
Here we must confront Revelation 14:9-13.
Revelation 14:9-13 seems to indicate human beings that accept the mark of the beast will be tormented day and night forever. But is this what the text really says?
Clearly they will drink of the wine of the wrath of God full strength, and will be tormented in the presence of the Lord and holy angels. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever. But this might only mean the consequences of being in torment and not in Christ lasts forever and ever.
And finally, they will have no rest day and night. Many assume this means they will have no rest from the torment day and night forever and ever, but it is equally as likely the idea is they will not enter the Lord’s rest, because they are not “in Christ.”
In summary, the idea of eternal torment is a possible understanding of scripture, but ultimate destruction and loss of conscious awareness after being "justly punished" for their specific misdeeds, remains a viable alternative view that does not hinder evangelism.
This is simply a reply to the OP, I have not read the thread, so if any of this is redundant, sorry about that.
Lots of times a man-made doctrine creates paradoxes such that the logical consequences of the doctrine make no sense because they conflict with specific passages of scripture. For example, God is just and the justifier of the unjust. But one view of Hades/Gehenna is that baby's that die before "they have done anything good or bad" are "punished forever" because they were conceived in iniquity. This makes no sense and hence provides a barrier to evangelism.
So lets back up and consider what the Bible actually says, rather than try to sell a doctrine that is inconsistent with what the Bible says.
Some folks, trying to solve the problem embrace universal salvation, so after folks are "purified" in the lake of fire, they pop up and go to heaven. Total hogwash in my opinion but you will find people pushing this view.
Then we have others that say the Bible teaches eternal torment, so a baby that dies is tormented for eternity. They say if you do not accept this "truth" you are applying human reasoning to God. In other words, accept this "pig in a poke" view, i.e. a mystery, even though it hinders evangelism.
But between these two man-made doctrines we find what the Bible actually says. First we must come to grips with the meaning of the Greek word that is translated eternal, as in John 3:16. It says we never die, but have "eternal" life. That makes it very clear that a person who does not die lives on and on and forever. Thus "eternal" means eternal. So redefining the meaning of that word does not provide any actual solution to the problem.
Second, we must come to grips with the Greek word translated "punishment" as in eternal punishment. Some claim the word means "torment" but that is incorrect. Its root meaning is "to prune," "restrain" or "confine." Thus to be confined to eternal darkness, i.e. separated from God who is light, could be the meaning of "eternal punishment."
So if we accept this view, then at least one "punishment" in Hades/Gehenna is eternal separation from God. But this does not address the clear teaching that the lost are "punished" (consciously tormented). And the Bible says we are punished for our deeds, i.e. misdeeds.
So if we put these two very different "punishments" (1) eternal separation, and (2) specific torment for our sins, together, we see a third alternative. We are punished justly for our sins, with those who have sinned less having a "more tolerable" situation.
So now lets consider the baby or the feeble minded who never believed and thus were "condemned already." They would not go to heaven because of unbelief. But they would not be consciously tormented because they had done nothing wrong in the eyes of God. Thus they would simply be "annihilated," i.e. they would rest in peace, but still "suffer" the eternal punishment of separation from God.
Well if this view is actually what the Bible teaches, how come so many people claim "eternal torment" is taught in scripture? It is certainly taught for Satan and his cohorts. But do humans receive the exact say "punishment?"
Here we must confront Revelation 14:9-13.
Revelation 14:9-13 seems to indicate human beings that accept the mark of the beast will be tormented day and night forever. But is this what the text really says?
Clearly they will drink of the wine of the wrath of God full strength, and will be tormented in the presence of the Lord and holy angels. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever. But this might only mean the consequences of being in torment and not in Christ lasts forever and ever.
And finally, they will have no rest day and night. Many assume this means they will have no rest from the torment day and night forever and ever, but it is equally as likely the idea is they will not enter the Lord’s rest, because they are not “in Christ.”
In summary, the idea of eternal torment is a possible understanding of scripture, but ultimate destruction and loss of conscious awareness after being "justly punished" for their specific misdeeds, remains a viable alternative view that does not hinder evangelism.
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You assume that a sin nature is necessary and explains why all sin, when the scriptures themselves clearly refute this idea. Satan was created perfect in all his ways til iniquity was found IN HIM. His sin originated within himself. All that is necessary for sin to happen is free will and a lack of faith. The fallen angels and Adam and Eve were also created "very good", yet all sinned. This easily proves that a person does not have to be born with a sin nature to sin.
Fact is, the scriptures say all God has made all men upright, but they have sought out many inventions. An invention is something that originates with the man, not God. (Ecc 7:29)
Men go to hell because the moment they sin they are sold to sin and belong to it, just as an ancient person would willingly sell himself into servitude. We are now owned and under the dominion of sin, and the wages for our sin is death.
The only escape from this dominion of sin is to trust in Christ. When we trust in Christ we are baptized into his body. Now, we died to sin when he died to sin, and we are raised to life with him. Sin has been paid for by Jesus and no longer holds the power of death over us, we are now under grace.
So, to be a slave of sin does not mean a person is compelled to sin. A slave does not have to obey his master, he can disobey or even run away. Nevertheless, we are still owned by sin and under it's power or dominion and will die and go to hell unless we trust in Christ.
If a person can understand that sin is compared to people who used to buy slaves in the market they will understand this. We have been bought by the blood of Christ, sin has been paid in full for our account. But we must willingly trust in Christ to receive his grace.
No, not really, I don't need to assume anything. It's just the way it is. verified as far as I can see, both by scripture and through observation.
Romans 5:12 shows that we are different than satan, that sin and death in humanity has its source in "one man". Adam.
Of course we have been down this road often and neither of us will change our views (or so it seems).
God bless you brother.
HankD
Romans 5:12 says death passed upon all men for that all have sinned. It does not say sin or the sin nature passed on all men.
We do inherit our physical bodies from our parents and thus from Adam. In Adam all die (physically) as shown in 1 Cor 15:2. This chapter is speaking of physical death only, as the whole chapter concerns the resurrection of our physical bodies from the dead.
But the scriptures teach we get our soul and spirit from God, not our parents.
Jer 38:16 So Zedekiah the king sware secretly unto Jeremiah, saying, As the LORD liveth, that made us this soul, I will not put thee to death, neither will I give thee into the hand of these men that seek thy life.
As you see, the ancient Jews believed that our soul was made by God.
Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
As you can see, the scriptures also say we received our spirit from God. To believe we are born with an evil soul and spirit is to accuse God of making evil.
No, we inherit our corruptible bodies from our parents, this is why even babies die. The curse on the ground in Genesis extended to all creation, thus, even animals who cannot sin die, and unliving matter grows old and fades away.
But our spirit and soul came from God and we are originally made upright.
Ecc 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.
The word "they" points directly back to the word "man" and shows this verse is speaking of all men, not Adam alone.
Augustine misinterpreted Romans 5:12 because he used a flawed Latin text that read "in whom all have sinned" which he believe referred to Adam. Almost all Greek scholars agree this Latin text was error and that the verse should correctly be interpreted to say "for that all have sinned" or "because all have sinned" and is saying all men die because of their own personal sin. The Eastern Orthodox church which always used only the Greek text disagreed with Augustine and have never held to Original Sin as Augustine and the Western church held. Many other groups such as the Anabaptists also rejected Augustine's interpretation.
Ezekiel chapter 18 makes it clear, all men die for their OWN sin, God does not impute the sin of the father to his son or vice versa.
Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
I do not understand why so many hold to Augustine's misinterpretation of scripture when there is clear and direct scripture that says the son shall not bear the iniquity of his father, and these words came from God himself.
Men go to hell because the moment they sin they are sold under sin and belong to it, just like a slave in ancient Israel.
You keep repeating this error and take the role of a false teacher to yourself;
You can make any argument you want, Ezekiel 18:20 says the son shall not bear the iniquity of his father. Besides being exactly what the word of God directly says, every man in his heart knows this is just, and every man in his heart understands it would be unjust to be condemned for a sin a person did not commit, a sin that was committed before he was ever born, without his knowledge or consent.
I am not a false teacher, I believe what God himself said, and God said the son shall not bear the iniquity of his father.
That has nothing to do with the issue at hand. All your misuse of scripture does not change the verses in Romans:thumbsup:
I made no argument...Romans reveals truth that is believed by the church....you ignore it at your own peril.
Romans 5:12 says DEATH passed on every man, for that all have sinned.
It does not say SIN passed on every man as you falsely teach.
You cannot seem to distinguish between death and sin, they are not the same.
You teach that Adam's sin passed on all men, this is false. Ezekiel 18:20 says the son shall not bear the iniquity of his father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of his son, but the soul that sins shall die.
Babies do not sin, Romans 9:11 proves this;
Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )
Augustine is responsible for this being the official doctrine of the church, that does not make it correct. Augustine taught MANY errors. Augustine won't be able to help you when you stand before God.
Time will tell.
Your response is a clear and unbiblical denial of the truth of romans 3:23 and romans 5:12.....ALL SINNED ...at one point in time...ALL sinned.
Your false view of romans 9 does not change these verses
A Faithful Sidekick
New Member
Scripture seems to speak of three imputations (imputation is where the standing, nature, or and/deeds of one is attributed to another or to others):
Adam's sin, guilt, and corruption imputed to his progeny - every human conceived since Creation (Psalm 51:5, Job 14:4 and 15:4 and others);
Our sin, corruption, and guilt imputed to Christ when He "became sin for us" and bore our guilt in His own body on the tree (Romans 5:19 ; and 2 Corinthians 5:21); and
Christ's righteousness imputed to the Elect and received by God-given faith (Romans 4:5-8, 2 Corinthians 5:19-21).
-Robin
Adam's sin, guilt, and corruption imputed to his progeny - every human conceived since Creation (Psalm 51:5, Job 14:4 and 15:4 and others);
Our sin, corruption, and guilt imputed to Christ when He "became sin for us" and bore our guilt in His own body on the tree (Romans 5:19 ; and 2 Corinthians 5:21); and
Christ's righteousness imputed to the Elect and received by God-given faith (Romans 4:5-8, 2 Corinthians 5:19-21).
-Robin