:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::wavey:
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Why do people go to hell? For sinning? For being born children of the devil?
- Thread starter zrs6v4
- Start date
:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::wavey:
LOL, how do you misinterpret Paul when he said neither Jacob or Esau had done evil?
If your view is correct, Paul could not have said this, because you believe all persons participated in Adam's sin and sinned when he did.
Paul proves your view and doctrine error.
I notice that the Holy Spirit had paul write romans 3,and romans 5 before romans 9
This scripture does not contradict itself ...not even for your novelties....
This might help...take a look....When you set aside truth, this is all you have left:
Many things combine to make the present inroad of false doctrine peculiarly dangerous.
1. There is an undeniable zeal in some of the teachers of error: their “earnestness” makes many think they must be right.
2. There is a great appearance of learning and theological knowledge: many fancy that such clever and intellectual men must surely be safe guides.
3. There is a general tendency to free thought and free inquiry in these latter days: many like to prove their independence of judgment, by believing novelties.
4. There is a wide-spread desire to appear charitable and liberal-minded: many seem half ashamed of saying that anybody can be in the wrong.
5. There is a quantity of half-truth taught by the modern false teachers: they are incessantly using Scriptural terms and phrases in an unscriptural sense.
6. There is a morbid craving in the public mind for a more sensuous, ceremonial, sensational, showy worship: men are impatient of inward, invisible heart-work.
7. There is a silly readiness in every direction to believe everybody who talks cleverly, lovingly and earnestly, and a determination to forget that Satan often masquerades himself “as an angel of light” (2 Corinthians 11:14).
8. There is a wide-spread “gullibility” among professing Christians: every heretic who tells his story plausibly is sure to be believed, and everybody who doubts him is called a persecutor and a narrow-minded man.
:laugh::laugh: oh yes:thumbs:
All these things are peculiar symptoms of our times. I defy any observing person to deny them. They tend to make the assaults of false doctrine in our day peculiarly dangerous. They make it more than ever needful to cry aloud, “Do not be carried away!”
~ J.C. Ryle
Woooosh...that is the sound of the meaning of this passage,going right over your head,lol
I cannot hold your hand everytime you completely miss the point of the passage!
You cannot deal with romans3 ;23...or rom5 so you avoid and jump away from the passages,,,ignoring the truth of God.
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I am completely aware that Paul is speaking of election not being based on works in Romans 9:11. Nevertheless, Paul clearly states that neither Esau or Jacob had done any evil in their mother's womb. Now, if your view is correct (it is not), Paul could not say this, because you believe that every person ever born (except Jesus) participated in Adam's sin.
Your quote of Ryle is meaningless. I do not pretend to be any sort of intellectual, I simply believe the scriptures. My view is not novel, the EOC immediately rejected Augustine's interpretation of Romans 5:12 from a Latin text, as well as many well known Greek scholars. This is historical fact.
If all men participated in Adam's sin, then Jesus would be guilty of sin as well, as he is traced back to Adam in scripture. Oh, I know what you will answer, that the sin nature and sin is received through the father only, but Job asked how any man born of a woman can be clean.
Job 15:14 What is man, that he should be clean? and he which is born of a woman, that he should be righteous?
Job 25:4 How then can man be justified with God? or how can he be clean that is born of a woman?
So much for your Federal Headship Theory, if the sin nature is inherited, and all men are guilty of Adam's sin, then so was Jesus, as Jesus was born of a woman.
No, the scriptures teach that all men are made upright (Ecc 7:29), but they have sought out many inventions. That is, all men have gone astray since birth and sinned personally.
The reason men go to hell is because they are captive of sin. The moment a man knowingly and willingly sins he is "sold under sin" as Paul said. He is like an ancient servant or slave that was sold to a master. The wages of this master sin is death. The only escape is to trust in Jesus. The moment a person trusts in Christ they are baptized into his death and dead to sin, but they are raised with Jesus and alive unto righteousness.
Where is it written they were uncorrupt?
Haven't read the entire thread, so apologies if this was already touched upon.
If by "explain," you mean to reconcile the ways of God with a carnal sense of justice, then it cannot be explained. One should let God be true, and every man a liar and abandon the pretense that man the creation is for any reason owed an explanation by his Creator.
Once one submits to that premise, then the rest is easy.
freeatlast
New Member
Just like sin was imputed to all men because of one man, Adam, the free gift is for all men.
Rom 5:18
Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life
The difference is that not all will receive the gift of life so as to be saved.
Wow...a thread where I can disagree and agree with everyone to an extent...at the same time! :laugh:
I disagree with Michael Wren's implied second chance.
I disagree with the Augustinians original sin and imputation of guilt.
I disagree with Winman in not having a sin nature (may be semantics as I believe this is part of post fall human nature).
I disagree with HOS in regards the lost will hate heaven (story of Lazarus and rich man)
What I'm sure I agree with...sinners who have no faith in Christ perish (John 3:18)
I disagree with Michael Wren's implied second chance.
I disagree with the Augustinians original sin and imputation of guilt.
I disagree with Winman in not having a sin nature (may be semantics as I believe this is part of post fall human nature).
I disagree with HOS in regards the lost will hate heaven (story of Lazarus and rich man)
What I'm sure I agree with...sinners who have no faith in Christ perish (John 3:18)
Was Adam's sin imputed to mankind? Certainly by the sin of the one (Adam) the many were "made sinners."
Psalm 51:5 certainly says we are conceived "in sin" and birthed in iniquity. One way to look at this is we are conceived in a sinful state, separated from God. Our sin creates a separation from God, so if we start out separated, then we are made "sinners" because we are separated from God.
Job 14:4 simply reinforces the idea that we cannot make ourselves sinless because we are unclean to begin with. Only Christ was sinless.
In our fallen state, separated and corrupted, we cannot make ourselves united with God and perfect (i.e. uncorrupted). But this condition, being separated and corrupted, is a consequence of Adam's sin, not a result of Adam's sin being imputed to us. Also our fallen condition is not a punishment of us for Adam's sin, but simply a consequence of Adam's sin. God visits the sins of the father upon his descendants, but does not punish the descendants for the sins of the father.
By the transgression of the one (Adam) the many "died." Here I think died refers to spiritual death, which is to be separated from the living God.
Psalm 51:5 certainly says we are conceived "in sin" and birthed in iniquity. One way to look at this is we are conceived in a sinful state, separated from God. Our sin creates a separation from God, so if we start out separated, then we are made "sinners" because we are separated from God.
Job 14:4 simply reinforces the idea that we cannot make ourselves sinless because we are unclean to begin with. Only Christ was sinless.
In our fallen state, separated and corrupted, we cannot make ourselves united with God and perfect (i.e. uncorrupted). But this condition, being separated and corrupted, is a consequence of Adam's sin, not a result of Adam's sin being imputed to us. Also our fallen condition is not a punishment of us for Adam's sin, but simply a consequence of Adam's sin. God visits the sins of the father upon his descendants, but does not punish the descendants for the sins of the father.
By the transgression of the one (Adam) the many "died." Here I think died refers to spiritual death, which is to be separated from the living God.
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Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
I haven't read all the replies, so I apologize if this is repetitive...
The seriousness of sin is measured not by the act itself, but by the one who is offended. Consider the difference in punishment if I throw my shoe at my buddy, versus throwing my shoe at the President, as an example. Hardly anything would happen for the first offense, but I would face jail time for the second. Why? The nature of the offense is the same, but the position or status of the one offended has changed. The same is true of God.
An offense against an eternally holy God deserves an eternal punishment. To suggest it doesn't only undermines the level of God's Holiness.
With that being said, no one goes to hell for lack of atonement (appeasement against the offense against God's holiness). They only perish because they refuse to accept the truth and so be saved. They perish for their unbelief.
The seriousness of sin is measured not by the act itself, but by the one who is offended. Consider the difference in punishment if I throw my shoe at my buddy, versus throwing my shoe at the President, as an example. Hardly anything would happen for the first offense, but I would face jail time for the second. Why? The nature of the offense is the same, but the position or status of the one offended has changed. The same is true of God.
An offense against an eternally holy God deserves an eternal punishment. To suggest it doesn't only undermines the level of God's Holiness.
With that being said, no one goes to hell for lack of atonement (appeasement against the offense against God's holiness). They only perish because they refuse to accept the truth and so be saved. They perish for their unbelief.
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Can a person without sin be corrupt? Explain to me how a person without sin can be corrupt.
How were Adam and Eve different after the fall? If you mean having passions that tempt us to sin, it is clear that Satan aroused passions in Eve that tempted her, so I see no difference between Adam and Eve and us.
There is no mention in the curse that God cursed man's moral nature in any way. He cursed the woman with pain in childbirth and that she would be subject to her husband, he cursed the ground that made it more difficult for man to make a living, and said he would physically die. But if God cursed man's nature so that he would be born utterly evil (which would be far worse than the ground being cursed) God completely failed to mention it. I find it impossible to believe God would neglect to mention this if it were true.
The only difference stated is now that man was like God knowing good and evil. This is not evil, because God himself has this knowledge.
What is this knowledge of good and evil, and how does it affect a man? That is the real question.
But being born with fleshly lusts that tempt us to sin is not sinful in itself. Adam and Eve were made flesh and could be tempted, yet God declared them "very good".
It is not having the potential to sin that makes us sinful, it is actually committing sin that makes us sinful. All men have the ability and potential to rob a bank, do we arrest men and throw them into prison because of this ability? NO, and all would agree that it would be unjust to arrest and imprison a man for his potential and ability only. No, we only arrest and imprison a person when they actually commit a crime.
:thumbsup::thumbsup: Agreed...This is what makes the "Eternality" or "foreverness" justifyable....The one AGAINST whom one sins...is what creates the gravity of the situation...
R.C. Sproul is quite correct with his definition of Sin as being a form of "cosmic treason"...it sums it up rather well.
:thumbsup::thumbsup:
There is much truth to this....although...(strictly speaking) God did not actually "curse" anything other than the "Earth" itself and the "Beasts"...read carefully:
Gen 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou [art] cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
Gen 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire [shall be] to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
Gen 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed [is] the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat [of] it all the days of thy life;
It is possible... that a tendency towards corruptibility is concurrent with granting "free-will" to any creature. It seems, to me, that the simplest explanation is that God desired to grant certain creatures some level of freedom of will. Whether or not they might be party to grace in any form is of no consequence. i.e. Angels...
But IF God granted freedom of "WILL" it seems to me most apparent that "Will" is something that automatically entails such a thing as the capacity towards corruptibility...and that none do (in fact) succeed in sinlessness vis-a-vis our innate faculty of being born with a personal "WILL"...Corruptibility...seems to be merely a matter of time. Given time...the "Will", shall begin it's own source of "self-seeking" and will ultimately guarantee it's possesor that it seek it's own way and own path. This seems to be consistent with all Scripture.
not sure you can compare A&E with us in the same manner you cannot compare Saul's conversion with ours. Completely unique.
define moral nature. The curse affected every part of creation from that point forward. Our dna, thought processes, material and immaterial were stained by sin.
agreed.
we see it from very young children how it affects man. Selfishness is inherent in the flesh, something that happened as a result of the fall.
agreed.
agreed, being affected by the fall does not equate to guilt...but one doesn't have to be guilty to have a human nature affected by sin.
A Faithful Sidekick
New Member
Paul also wrote that Christ was slain "before the foundation of the world." Why? No one had yet sinned! Therefore He must have died for something else, and sinners who lived after the foundation of the world have no hope.
That's the same "reasoning" you just used to "disprove" the doctrine of natural human corruption; inherited sin and guilt, imputed to Adam's progeny.
Scripture gives God credit for knowing stuff ahead of time, and for making choices ahead of time. It's like my little question,
If Almighty God foresees that something terribly and evil and horrific is about to happen, is there any chance that it won't?
If the answer is Yes, then His foreknowledge is false! He foresaw something that never came to pass, which makes Him either a liar or less than All-Knowing.
If the answer is No, then He must have chosen ahead of time not to prevent the horrific evil situation. This only makes Him guilty of not choosing what you or I would have wished Him to choose.
It is not said that Jacob and Esau were without sin. It is said they had done neither good nor evil.
Actually, I tend to agree with this view very much. God could create us "very good", but I do not believe God could create anything absolutely perfect. What I mean by this is that absolute perfection belongs to God only. Any creation must necessarily be inferior to God himself. God cannot create himself, in that he was not created, but he also cannot create anything equal to himself, or else it would be God.
I believe God gave all his creation free will because it is moral. It is immoral to enslave anyone. Therefore it was impossible to create man (and angels) without the possibility and risk of sin.
I believe this is why Jesus said offences "must needs be".
Mat 18:7 Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!
As you see, Jesus said that it "must needs be that offences come". In other words, sin cannot be prevented, even by God. I believe this is because God gave angels and men free will. Thus, sin cannot be prevented. But Jesus also made it clear that sin comes by the man himself, God did not cause or create sin.
Will we be perfect in heaven? I don't know. We will have new incorruptible bodies that will not tempt us, and we will be in a perfect environment. We will also be filled with the knowledge of God. But I am not sure we will be infallible, we may still be able to make errors or mistakes on occasion. Just have to wait and see on this one.
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Are you listening to yourself? If you have never sinned, then you are without sin. Sin is transgression of the law, sin is not a physical or even spiritual quality like the color of your eyes or hair.
You cannot inherit sin, and sin is not contagious like a disease. Sin is an act, it is an act of disobedience or rebellion to God's laws. Sin is a choice.
I agree that God in his foreknowledge knew men would sin. I agree that if God foreknows something will happen, that it will certainly happen just as God foresaw it would.
However, I disagree that this causes men to sin. Just because God could foresee men would sin, and that they certainly would, does not mean God either ordained or caused it. It simply means God could foresee what would actually take place and nothing more.
Now, I am not saying God sits back as a spectator and watches what happens, it is certain God intervenes in history, and that God directs all things so that his purposes will surely be accomplished. Nevertheless, the scriptures say God does not even so much as tempt any man to sin (Jam 1:13), so it is certain God does not cause sin. He does allow sin to happen within limits, and God can certainly use the foreknown sinful actions that men will commit to bring about his purposes, such as the Jews taking Jesus and crucifying him.