Why do people go to hell? For sinning? For being born children of the devil?

[Aaron]

Irrelevant to the charge having faith equates to inherent goodness.

Not at all irrelevant. If faith is something that all men possess by nature, and one by his own volition exercises it in relation to Christ, it is inherent goodness.

The object of one's faith determines whether it is good. Is faith in islam good?

Faith in Islam is carnal. Faith in Christ is spiritual. Not because of the object, but because of its nature.

One cannot choose the object of his faith. One's faith is what it is.

 

[Skandelon]

Faith in Christ is only good because God declares it so. It's not any more inherently good than faith in anything. Faith is a filthy rag, just like anything we attempt, but God in his mercy chooses to credit it to our account as righteousness.

Was Rahab 'good' simply because she feared the Israelites God and hid the spies? Not according to the laws of her land and her people, she wasn't. She was a traitor to her people. The only thing that made her deception good was God's declaration of it as being good. Good doesn't determined God. God determines what is good. And if he, in his mercy, wants to accept a mustard seed of man's faith and credit to their account as righteousness that is his prerogative

But to assume, as Aaron does, that faith is inherently good is fallacious, because it implies that goodness predates God, when in reality God is the one who decides what is good and acceptable and pleasing to him.

Suppose God decided that sitting down was pleasing to him, and anyone who sat down would please him. Does that make sitting an inherently good act? No, God decided to accept it as good. He determined that it is good. He decided to accept that action as good by Grace.

Man couldn't live according to the Law, they were unable to attain righteousness by Law through Works. So, God decided to accept another way to attain righteousness; by Grace through Faith. HE decided to make faith in one who fulfilled the law acceptable, we didn't. Just because one is freely able to believe doesn't make that act a 'good' one...God makes it acceptable by Grace.

 

[Yeshua1]

I don't know what resource could be more important or authoritative than the literal Greek New Testament. One such resource is Rotherham's Emphasized Bible, the most literal copy ever produced.

The Bible makes it clear that the purpose of "hell" or suffering is not to torture people, but to cause them to learn from their mistakes and grow closer to perfection. Divine judgment is reformative, not vindictive. The word used in the original Greek New Testament is kolasis, which means a beneficial chastening such as a gardener prunes a vine to remove dead vegetation and make it grow more fruitfully.

Proportionality also ensures that any judgments upon a soul by God must be temporary and limited, since the sin that caused those judgments to ensue was also limited. This is a basic, Biblical teaching about divine justice -- and it is also common sense. The word used in the original New Testament to express this limited judgment is aionios, which means lasting for a distinct age or period of time. It is the Greek word from which we derive the English word eon. There is no such thing as "eternal" hell, despite what many Christians have been led to believe based on mistranslations of the Bible. In principle, it could be forever because humans have the freedom to continue to reject God. By this same principle, universalism is as false as is eternal hell.

Nevertheless, when Jesus spoke of God's judgment upon the wicked, he did so with words that implied a limited, corrective punishment. Specifically, he referred to divine judgment as aionios kolasis, meaning age-long chastisement.

Many Christians think they are defending the Gospel when they portray God as a vindictive eternal punisher when in reality they are impugning God's character.

ALL of us deserve to go to hell though...

ONLY those saved by the Cross by God in THIS life avoid that state!

Those who go there are experiencing God allowing them their 'free will choices" to reject Him...

NOT Purgatory, but domain of eternal seperation from presense of God!


God is holy and Loving...

Those who accept jesus as Saviour/messiah have their sins remiited due to jesus death on their behalf, those who go on without Him will have to pay for their own....

 

[Aaron]

Man couldn't live according to the Law, they were unable to attain righteousness by Law through Works. So, God decided to accept another way to attain righteousness; by Grace through Faith. HE decided to make faith in one who fulfilled the law acceptable, we didn't. Just because one is freely able to believe doesn't make that act a 'good' one...God makes it acceptable by Grace.

Paraphrased, this is what Scandal has just said:

The law was too high a standard. It wasn't within a man's power. So God lowered the bar, and decided to accept man's inherent power to believe, and count it as righteousness.

What a small view of the Gospel you have!

 

[Yeshua1]

Paraphrased, this is what Scandal has just said:

The law was too high a standard. It wasn't within a man's power. So God lowered the bar, and decided to accept man's inherent power to believe, and count it as righteousness.

What a small view of the Gospel you have!

but it is held by quite a few today, that see us able to do enough works to merit salvation from God!

 

[freeatlast]

Man couldn't live according to the Law, they were unable to attain righteousness by Law through Works. So, God decided to accept another way to attain righteousness; by Grace through Faith. HE decided to make faith in one who fulfilled the law acceptable, we didn't. Just because one is freely able to believe doesn't make that act a 'good' one...God makes it acceptable by Grace.

You really don't believe that do you?

 

[Yeshua1]

You really don't believe that do you?

God ALWAYS has saived sinners only way...

Basis is the death of jesus on the Cross, accessed by faith in Him!

 

[Yeshua1]

Faith in Christ is only good because God declares it so. It's not any more inherently good than faith in anything. Faith is a filthy rag, just like anything we attempt, but God in his mercy chooses to credit it to our account as righteousness.

Was Rahab 'good' simply because she feared the Israelites God and hid the spies? Not according to the laws of her land and her people, she wasn't. She was a traitor to her people. The only thing that made her deception good was God's declaration of it as being good. Good doesn't determined God. God determines what is good. And if he, in his mercy, wants to accept a mustard seed of man's faith and credit to their account as righteousness that is his prerogative

But to assume, as Aaron does, that faith is inherently good is fallacious, because it implies that goodness predates God, when in reality God is the one who decides what is good and acceptable and pleasing to him.

Suppose God decided that sitting down was pleasing to him, and anyone who sat down would please him. Does that make sitting an inherently good act? No, God decided to accept it as good. He determined that it is good. He decided to accept that action as good by Grace.

Man couldn't live according to the Law, they were unable to attain righteousness by Law through Works. So, God decided to accept another way to attain righteousness; by Grace through Faith. HE decided to make faith in one who fulfilled the law acceptable, we didn't. Just because one is freely able to believe doesn't make that act a 'good' one...God makes it acceptable by Grace.

faith NEVER saved anyone though! Its allows God to effectual apply the Grace from the Cross towards us, but jesus death saved us, period!

 

[Skandelon]

Paraphrased, this is what Scandal has just said:

The law was too high a standard. It wasn't within a man's power. So God lowered the bar, and decided to accept man's inherent power to believe, and count it as righteousness.

What a small view of the Gospel you have!

You can't paraphrase well, so please stop trying.

God didn't lower the standard, He sent Christ to fulfill it. That is gospel 101 and I think you know it. You just hear what you want to hear and resort to straw man attacks. Typical.

 

[Skandelon]

You really don't believe that do you?

What specifically do you disagree with and why? That would be the correct manner in which to engage in a productive and meaningful debate/discussion. :wavey:

 

[Skandelon]

faith NEVER saved anyone though! Its allows God to effectual apply the Grace from the Cross towards us, but jesus death saved us, period!

I agree.........faith is the means through which Grace is applied.

"By Grace through faith..." = possible

"By Law through Works" = impossible​

Calvinists mistakenly take verses which prove the latter to disprove the former.

 

[Skandelon]

One more mistake on your post that I failed to mention....

and decided to accept man's inherent power to believe, and count it as righteousness.

"And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15 And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!" 16 But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our message?" 17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ."

"I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes" - Paul​

The power to believe is found in the Gospel appeal, not man. So, once again, you prove to be either incapable of understanding my views or unwilling to represent them accurately.

 

[Aaron]

The power to believe is found in the Gospel appeal, not man. So, once again, you prove to be either incapable of understanding my views or unwilling to represent them accurately.

I understand them perfectly. You're saying that men simply learn to place their faith in Christ through education, just as one learns to operate his iphone by reading the manual. The power is in the one who is being educated.

 

[Skandelon]

I understand them perfectly. You're saying that men simply learn to place their faith in Christ through education, just as one learns to operate his iphone by reading the manual. The power is in the one who is being educated.

Wrong again. Man, do you ever get tired of being so inaccurate? Put a little effort into understanding your opponent and you won't continue to have this problem, Aaron.

Yes, knowledge of the gospel is necessary, just as knowledge of how to work a iphone is necessary. And the proclamation/reading of the gospel truth is similar to an operational manual in that regard...it provides the knowledge (as even Calvinists would affirm). However, the gospel is the words of Christ, not just an operational manual. Words have power...at least God's words do. Jesus said, "the very words I speak to you are spirit and life." Now, you don't agree with Jesus on this point, which is unfortunate, but I do. So, once again, you prove to be either incapable of understanding my views or unwilling to represent them accurately.

When the God speaks, He enables. When you speak, you confound.