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Why do people hate the doctrine of Eternal Security?

Marcia

Active Member
drfuss said:
drfuss: I first came across Charles Stanley's belief about six or eight years when he had the following example on his website (it hasn't been on his site for years):

"Consider the following example: A person accepted and trusts Christ as Savior, commits their life to Him and lives for him for two years. Then stopped trusting Christ as their Savior for some reason such as being converted to the Mormons or Muslims, and continues in this non-trusting state until this person dies. Will this person go to heaven?"

Charles Stanley believes this person will go to heaven regardless of their spiritual state when they die, even if he stays a Muslim. Charles Stanley believes that once God gives a person the gift of salvation, that person is no longer free to give it back even if they want to.

Stanley believes a one time Christian will go to heaven even if he has rejected Christianity and trusts in another route to heaven when he dies.

Well, I disagree with him. I also don't think a regenerated believer would convert to Mormonism unless he did not know their full beliefs. Once he knows the full beliefs, he would leave, I would think. I don't see a regenerated believer converting to Islam, though.

Except for the univeralists, don't all other Christians believe a person must be trusting Christ when he dies to go to heaven?

Nope. There is now an increasing number of Christian inclusivists who believe that unsaved people go to heaven if they have never rejected Christ. I think a few of these people might even be on the BB.

Someone posted a link on a thread here (maybe this thread?) to a book that endorses this view by a man named Neal Punt. Guess who wrote the Foreword? Richard Mouw of Fuller Seminary:
http://www.evangelicalinclusivism.com/

It's a real eye-opener.

A recent book that responds to this view is Faith Comes by Hearing by Christopher Morgan and Robert Peterson:
http://www.ivpress.com/cgi-ivpress/book.pl/code=2590
 

drfuss

New Member
Nicholas25 said:
There are those who disagree, but there are many who hate the teaching! They say it's a license to sin and sends many to hell. I guess on the other hand, there are many who believe in OSAS who hate the teaching of conditional security.

drfuss: Nicholas, we have not heard from you recently. Has you original question been answered? Most Non-eternal security Christians consider Charles Stanley to be a main spokeman for eternal security believers; hence, they think eternal security is a licence to sin.
 

Zenas

Active Member
The reason we advocates of conditional security are so passionate against eternal security is that it is an invitation to sin and a license to continue sinning. Consider the following remark which has been attributed to Charles Stanley: “No matter what you do as a child of God, you are forgiven. You say, ‘Murder?’ Forgiven. ‘Stealing?’ Forgiven. ‘Adultery?’ Forgiven. ‘Worshiping idols?’ Forgiven.” I know that runs counter to Romans 6:1-2, but the idea is still out there and it promotes a worldly and immoral lifestyle.

As an example, consider the problem (sin) of cheating on your taxes. This is a crime under our laws and it is also stealing, a clear violation of the Eighth Commandment. Let's say you are a pastor who does a funeral. Afterward, a relative of the deceased gives you an envelope containing $100 cash. This stipend is taxable as income under the Internal Revenue Code. However, there is no paper trail and the chances of getting caught not reporting it are zero. This is a secret between you and God.

If you believe in conditional security, you are not only fortified by a moral sense of right and wrong. You are also haunted by the possibility of going to hell if you should die with this unforgiven sin. The problem of sin and its impact on your eternal destiny is always at the surface of your rational thought process. You will in all probability report the $100 on your tax return.

If you believe in eternal security, you are still fortified by that moral sense of right and wrong. However, the temptation to cheat is greater because there are no eternal consequences for cheating or refraining from cheating. The problem of sin is probably buried somewhere beneath the surface of your conscious thought process. And that is why, in my opinion, there is so little said about sin in our Baptist churches today. With the doctrine of eternal security, it has no impact on your eternal destiny. Therefore, the condemnation of sin takes a back seat to evangelism and “feel good” topics.

I have had wide exposure to Church of Christ thought and a limited exposure to Catholic thought, both of which reject the doctrine of eternal security. Both of these groups are definitely a lot more concerned about sin than we Baptists are. The importance of avoiding sin is an integral part of their programs at all levels and I would assume it is because they take to heart passages such as Galations 5:19-21.
19Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
So, are believers in eternal security sinning by their belief? Certainly not. Are they more likely to take a lackadaisical attitude toward the problem of sin in their lives? Probably so. Unfortunately I fear many will avoid thinking about sin in their lives until it is “everlasting too late” (an old Church of Christ idiom).
 

Jim1999

<img src =/Jim1999.jpg>
How about Perseverance of the Saints instead of the worn out OSAS.

In perseverance, the so-called licence to sin has been removed. To dismiss eternal security on your arguments is to dismiss so many other connected doctrines.

Just as an aside, the gift money you speak of depends on the state in the USA and is totally exempt in Canada.

Cheers,

Jim
 

Amy.G

New Member
Zenas said:
The reason we advocates of conditional security are so passionate against eternal security is that it is an invitation to sin and a license to continue sinning. Consider the following remark which has been attributed to Charles Stanley: “No matter what you do as a child of God, you are forgiven. You say, ‘Murder?’ Forgiven. ‘Stealing?’ Forgiven. ‘Adultery?’ Forgiven. ‘Worshiping idols?’ Forgiven.” I know that runs counter to Romans 6:1-2, but the idea is still out there and it promotes a worldly and immoral lifestyle.
Completely false. David was forgiven, Moses, Paul.....

As an example, consider the problem (sin) of cheating on your taxes. This is a crime under our laws and it is also stealing, a clear violation of the Eighth Commandment. Let's say you are a pastor who does a funeral. Afterward, a relative of the deceased gives you an envelope containing $100 cash. This stipend is taxable as income under the Internal Revenue Code. However, there is no paper trail and the chances of getting caught not reporting it are zero. This is a secret between you and God.
We all sin, even those that don't believe in eternal security. God disciplines those He loves.


If you believe in conditional security, you are not only fortified by a moral sense of right and wrong. You are also haunted by the possibility of going to hell if you should die with this unforgiven sin. The problem of sin and its impact on your eternal destiny is always at the surface of your rational thought process. You will in all probability report the $100 on your tax return.
And yet, you will still sin until the day you die. And you have no assurance of salvation because you will not die in a sinless state no matter how hard you try.

If you believe in eternal security, you are still fortified by that moral sense of right and wrong. However, the temptation to cheat is greater because there are no eternal consequences for cheating or refraining from cheating. The problem of sin is probably buried somewhere beneath the surface of your conscious thought process. And that is why, in my opinion, there is so little said about sin in our Baptist churches today. With the doctrine of eternal security, it has no impact on your eternal destiny. Therefore, the condemnation of sin takes a back seat to evangelism and “feel good” topics.
As a born again believer, I do not fear hell because I have put my trust and very life in the hands of Christ. But I am broken hearted when I sin, because I have His Spirit in me and I love Him much more than my sin, which is why I go to Him for forgiveness.


I have had wide exposure to Church of Christ thought and a limited exposure to Catholic thought, both of which reject the doctrine of eternal security. Both of these groups are definitely a lot more concerned about sin than we Baptists are.
That must be why priests have such a probem with molesting little boys. They have such a fear of hell. :rolleyes:


The importance of avoiding sin is an integral part of their programs at all levels and I would assume it is because they take to heart passages such as Galations 5:19-21.
So, are believers in eternal security sinning by their belief? Certainly not. Are they more likely to take a lackadaisical attitude toward the problem of sin in their lives? Probably so. Unfortunately I fear many will avoid thinking about sin in their lives until it is “everlasting too late” (an old Church of Christ idiom).
Even though they believe one can lose his salvation, the people in the COC or RCC are no more sinless or righteous than any other group of humans.
 

Amy.G

New Member
Zenas said:
So, Amy, do you agree with the Charles Stanley school of eternal security?
No. I don't believe a born again believer can sin without conviction of the Holy Spirit. God will discipline him until he turns back to Him.

Hbr 12:11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.
 

Zenas

Active Member
This is interesting. Until Marcia raised the apparent difference in Stanley's approach on this thread, I had never seen anyone try to distinguish him from all the other OSAS Baptists. After all, he was a two-term president of the SBC, was the first hand picked president of the conservative resurgence and was probably the most prominent SBC spokesperson until he was eclipsed by Al Mohler some 7 or 8 years ago. Truth be told, I don't think Stanley's thinking on this subject is any different than my pastor or any other Southern Baptist pastor. It certainly conforms to the BF&M.
 

drfuss

New Member
Jim1999 said:
How about Perseverance of the Saints instead of the worn out OSAS.

In perseverance, the so-called licence to sin has been removed. To dismiss eternal security on your arguments is to dismiss so many other connected doctrines.

Just as an aside, the gift money you speak of depends on the state in the USA and is totally exempt in Canada.

Cheers,

Jim

drfuss: Concerning perseverence, the SBC Baptist Faith and Message addresses perseverence by saying "All True Believers will endure to the end". Since Charles Stanley was president of the SBC for two years and is still part of the SBC, he is supposed to believe that "All True Believers will endure to the end". I always thought that endure to the end meant endure believing to the end. Since Stanley believes a True Christian can both stop trusting in Christ and then not trust in Christ to the end, any thoughts on what Stanley's definition of endure means?
 

Marcia

Active Member
Zenas said:
This is interesting. Until Marcia raised the apparent difference in Stanley's approach on this thread, I had never seen anyone try to distinguish him from all the other OSAS Baptists. After all, he was a two-term president of the SBC, was the first hand picked president of the conservative resurgence and was probably the most prominent SBC spokesperson until he was eclipsed by Al Mohler some 7 or 8 years ago. Truth be told, I don't think Stanley's thinking on this subject is any different than my pastor or any other Southern Baptist pastor. It certainly conforms to the BF&M.

But not everyone here is SBC. And as I said earlier, Stanley's views are not what I learned when studying this issue. And even though Stanley had those positions, that doesn't mean all So. Baptists would agree with him.
 

Marcia

Active Member
Zenas said:
The reason we advocates of conditional security are so passionate against eternal security is that it is an invitation to sin and a license to continue sinning. Consider the following remark which has been attributed to Charles Stanley: “No matter what you do as a child of God, you are forgiven. You say, ‘Murder?’ Forgiven. ‘Stealing?’ Forgiven. ‘Adultery?’ Forgiven. ‘Worshiping idols?’ Forgiven.” I know that runs counter to Romans 6:1-2, but the idea is still out there and it promotes a worldly and immoral lifestyle.

As an example, consider the problem (sin) of cheating on your taxes. This is a crime under our laws and it is also stealing, a clear violation of the Eighth Commandment. Let's say you are a pastor who does a funeral. Afterward, a relative of the deceased gives you an envelope containing $100 cash. This stipend is taxable as income under the Internal Revenue Code. However, there is no paper trail and the chances of getting caught not reporting it are zero. This is a secret between you and God.

If you believe in conditional security, you are not only fortified by a moral sense of right and wrong. You are also haunted by the possibility of going to hell if you should die with this unforgiven sin. The problem of sin and its impact on your eternal destiny is always at the surface of your rational thought process. You will in all probability report the $100 on your tax return.

If you believe in eternal security, you are still fortified by that moral sense of right and wrong. However, the temptation to cheat is greater because there are no eternal consequences for cheating or refraining from cheating. The problem of sin is probably buried somewhere beneath the surface of your conscious thought process. And that is why, in my opinion, there is so little said about sin in our Baptist churches today. With the doctrine of eternal security, it has no impact on your eternal destiny. Therefore, the condemnation of sin takes a back seat to evangelism and “feel good” topics.

I disagree that the temptation to cheat is greater for someone who is OSAS. The reason is because one is convicted by the Holy Spirit to do the right thing. We are being sanctified by the HS. If I am not cheating so I won't go to hell vs. not cheating because I know that grieves God, which brings more glory to God?

We are constantly being shaped by the HS and the Lord wants us to yield to Him. If we do the right thing simply out of fear of going to hell, it becomes legalistic and external -- just like the Church of Christ and the Roman Catholics, which are both very legalistic.

Isn't it more glorifying to Christ to do the right thing because you want to please Him and because you are heeding the Lord rather than because you fear going to hell?

Do you really think if the pastor does not report the $100 he will go to hell?
 

Zenas

Active Member
Isn't it more glorifying to Christ to do the right thing because you want to please Him and because you are heeding the Lord rather than because you fear going to hell?
Yes, but humans that we are, pain is a stronger motivator than pleasure.
Do you really think if the pastor does not report the $100 he will go to hell?
Yes, unless he receives forgiveness for what he has done, or unless he did it out of ignorance and not scienter, e.g., Jim1999 in Post #24.
 
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Jim1999

<img src =/Jim1999.jpg>
Do you really think if the pastor does not report the $100 he will go to hell?
----------------------------------------------

Wow! Think I will give up doing weddings and funerals....shucks,,they can bury themselves,,Too risky!

Never heard the likes and I thought I heard most of the cults.

S
shaking head,

Cheers,

Jim
 

drfuss

New Member
Zenas said:
This is interesting. Until Marcia raised the apparent difference in Stanley's approach on this thread, I had never seen anyone try to distinguish him from all the other OSAS Baptists. After all, he was a two-term president of the SBC, was the first hand picked president of the conservative resurgence and was probably the most prominent SBC spokesperson until he was eclipsed by Al Mohler some 7 or 8 years ago. Truth be told, I don't think Stanley's thinking on this subject is any different than my pastor or any other Southern Baptist pastor. It certainly conforms to the BF&M.

Drfuss: Stanley's view does not conform to the BF&M unless you come up with an innovative definition of "endure", See post #29.
 

TCGreek

New Member
Jim1999 said:
Do you really think if the pastor does not report the $100 he will go to hell?
----------------------------------------------

Wow! Think I will give up doing weddings and funerals....shucks,,they can bury themselves,,Too risky!

Never heard the likes and I thought I heard most of the cults.

S
shaking head,

Cheers,

Jim

Jim, thanks for keeping them honest.

I too am appalled at the stench of legalism. It's one of those evils that I have no patience for.
 

Marcia

Active Member
Zenas said:
Yes, unless he receives forgiveness for what he has done, or unless he did it out of ignorance and not scienter, e.g., Jim1999 in Post #24.

But if one trusts in Christ, then one is made righteous in the sight of God. That is justification. In actuality, we still sin but are being sanctified by the Holy Spirit.

In your view, then, it seems that one is not made righteous upon faith in Christ. Is that correct? If so, that means your view of justification must be different than the norm.
 

Amy.G

New Member
One thing that Charles Stanley said in his book that I agree with is that people who don't believe in eternal security don't seem to understand what Christ did on the cross. He paid the price for all sin...past, present and future. He paid for our sins 2000 years ago, long before we were ever born. If we are able to lose our salvation, then there is no more sacrifice to be made. You cannot be born again, and again, and again......
 

Zenas

Active Member
Marcia said:
But if one trusts in Christ, then one is made righteous in the sight of God. That is justification. In actuality, we still sin but are being sanctified by the Holy Spirit.

In your view, then, it seems that one is not made righteous upon faith in Christ. Is that correct? If so, that means your view of justification must be different than the norm.
Yes, that is correct. "There is none righteous, no not one." Romans 3:10. I think my view of justification is pretty much the norm. I just don't think we stay justified throughout our lives without working at it. I also believe 1 John 1:9 is there not just to get us back into fellowship with God, but to provide a means of forgiveness without which our souls would surely be damned.
 

Jim1999

<img src =/Jim1999.jpg>
The scriptural result of justification is just-as-if-I-never-sinned............but that is all in the work of my Lord Jesus.

If yours is a baptist church it is wrongly labelled and would make me ashamed to call myself baptist.

Cheers,

Jim
 

Amy.G

New Member
Zenas said:
Yes, that is correct. "There is none righteous, no not one." Romans 3:10. I think my view of justification is pretty much the norm. I just don't think we stay justified throughout our lives without working at it. I also believe 1 John 1:9 is there not just to get us back into fellowship with God, but to provide a means of forgiveness without which our souls would surely be damned.

Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

All who believe receive the righteousness of God upon them.


Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.


Rom 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.


2Cr 5:21 For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.



Our righteousness is in Christ, not ourselves.

I only posted a few scriptures. There are many, many more that state that our righteousness comes from Christ and Christ alone, and that by faith in His shed blood on our behalf, not by works.
 
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