Why do people ultimatively go to hell?

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

AW: Neither is their a passage that explicitly states the doctrine of the Trinity, but the concept is there none the less. However, Romans 5: 12-19 is pretty plain. Perhaps you could exegete this for me.

HP: You admit that what you first claimed is not in this passage and are right in doing so. Show us where it is even implied or alluded to that the sin of Adam and or his guilt is imputed to us.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Pastor Larry: No, not really, not according to Scripture. And irrelevant anyway since the option exists. The sinner simply does not want to take it because of his moral inability.

HP: I like a lot of what you say but this comment seems to contradict the statements that you said they would find themselves in hell. Hell is the ULTIMATE punishment, and are you suggesting that one could not do anything other that what he does, yet condemned and punished for not acting in opposition to that which necessity alone dictates, a feat that God Himself cannot do?

 

[Pastor Larry]

... are you suggesting that one could not do anything other that what he does, yet condemned and punished for not acting in opposition to that which necessity alone dictates, a feat that God Himself cannot do?

He has no desire to do anything other than what he does, and hell is the just penalty for his rebellion against God. Just as God cannot act contrary to his nature, so man cannot act contrary to his nature. That does not make either less than free beings.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Show us where it is even implied or alluded to that the sin of Adam and or his guilt is imputed to us.

Vv. 18-19 show that we become righteous the same way we become sinners ... through imputation.

 

[av1611jim]

Seems to me that some of you fellers missed this;
Joh 3:18
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Jesus said that folks are condemned already because they do NOT believe.

Sin=unbelief=hell. It is that simple.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

PL: He has no desire to do anything other than what he does

HP: I have been waiting on another thread for those such as yourself that use the word desires, to define that word for us. Would you be so kind as to do that for the list? Thanks.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

PL: Vv. 18-19 show that we become righteous the same way we become sinners ... through imputation.

HP: Still looking and cannot find it. Could you show us clearly by giving us your explanation at least in some detail so we can connect the dots as you see them connected? Thanks.

 

[BobRyan]

Luke 12
47 ""And that slave who knew his master's will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will, will receive many lashes,
48 but the one who did not know it, and committed deeds worthy of a flogging, will receive but few. From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more.
49 ""I have come to cast fire upon the earth; and how I wish it were already kindled!

Matt 18
32 ""Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.
33 " Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'
34 ""And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.
35 "" My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.''

Rom 6
23For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Is 53
6 All of us like sheep have gone astray,
Each of us has turned to his own way;
But [b]the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all
To fall on Him.[/b]
7
He was oppressed and He was afflicted,
Yet He did not open His mouth;
Like a lamb that is led to slaughter,
And like a sheep that is silent before its shearers,
So He did not open His mouth.
8
By oppression and judgment He was taken away;
And as for His generation, who considered
That He was cut off out of the land of the living
For the transgression of my people, to whom the stroke was due?[/b]
9
His grave was assigned with wicked men,
Yet He was with a rich man in His death,
Because He had done no violence,
Nor was there any deceit in His mouth[/b].
10
But the LORD was pleased
To crush Him, putting Him to grief;
If He would render Himself as a guilt offering[/b],
He will see His offspring,
He will prolong His days,
And the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand.
11
As a result of the anguish of His soul,
He will see it and be satisfied;
By His knowledge the Righteous One,
My Servant, will justify the many,
As He will bear their iniquities.[/b]

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

AV1611Jim: Seems to me that some of you fellers missed this;
Joh 3:18
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

HP: This verse simply could be stated in this manner. If you have not believed you are condemned already.

Take for instance a person who has never heard of Jesus. They are condemned already because they have not lived up to the light of their conscience. They are not condemned because they have rejected the name and offer of one they have never heard of and an offer they have never had the opportunity to accept or reject.

Scripture tells us that we all must have a messenger to give us the gospel message, without which we cannot even know of the gospel. “Ro 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

What sort of a taskmaster would punish a man for something they have not even heard of? Not a Fair and Just God, that is for sure.

 

[Andrew Walling]

HP: You admit that what you first claimed is not in this passage and are right in doing so. Show us where it is even implied or alluded to that the sin of Adam and or his guilt is imputed to us.

No, I am not admitting that what I first claimed is not in this passage and it presumptuous of you to say so. I was addressing your comment, "There is not a solitary Scripture that states that Adam's sin or his guilt is imputed to us as a result of Adam’s sin." You are showing yourself as demanding an explicit statement. I was merely pointing out that it is there in an implicit manner. As Pastor Larry has agreed, there is an implicit construct in Romans 5. Paul plainly puts forth a juxtaposition of the works of Christ and Adam and how each affects man. Both are consider a type of federal headship for man and both show an imputation of their works.

So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous. (Rom 5:18-19 NASB)

The word "through" denotes the implication. It's plain enough, but apperently not for you. Please resist the urge to detract from the this thread and lead others off into other topics. If you wish to start a thread rather than detracting from this one, I will be happy to join the conversation.

 

[Andrew Walling]

HP: I have been waiting on another thread for those such as yourself that use the word desires, to define that word for us. Would you be so kind as to do that for the list? Thanks.

I don't know what thee fuss is about. All you need is a dictionary. Can we agree upon that standard?

Desire
DESIRE, n.
1. An emotion or excitement of the mind, directed to the attainment or possession of an object from which pleasure, sensual, intellectual or spiritual, is expected; a passion excited by the love of an object, or uneasiness at the want of it, and directed to its attainment or possession. Desire is a wish to possess some gratification or source of happiness which is supposed to be obtainable. A wish may exist for something that is or is not abtainable. Desire, when directed solely to sensual enjoyment, differs little from appetite. In other languages, desire is expressed by longing or reaching toward, and when it is ardent or intense, it approaches to longing, but the word in English usually expresses less than longing.
We endeavored-to see your face with great desire. 1 Th 2.
Thou satisfiest the desires of every living thing. Psa 145.
Desire is that internal act, which, by influencing the will, makes us proceed to action.
2. A prayer or request to obtain:
He will fulfill the desire of them that fear him. Psa 145.
3. The object of desire; that which is desired.
The desire of all nations shall come. Hag 2.
4. Love; affection.
His desire is toward me. Song 7.
5. Appetite; lust.
Fulfilling the desires of the flesh. Eph 2.
DESIRE, v.t.
1. To wish for the possession or enjoyment of, with a greater or less degree of earnestness; to covet. It expresses less strength of affection than longing.
Neither shall any man desire thy land. Exo 34.
Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts. 1 Cor 14.
2. To express a wish to obtain; to ask; to request; to petition.
Then she said, did I desire a son of my Lord? 2 Ki 4.
3. To require.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

To the list:

Desire is a product of the sensibilities not the will. It is synonymous with an influence or a persuasion, not a product of choice for it is necessitated upon the will. If desire does not control the will, the will is free, but rather again serves to motivate the will to choose in a particular direction. As such desires are a product of necessity as opposed to choice. If desire does in fact control the will, the person is not even to be consisdered as a moral agent.

As moral being we are called on to choose between desires, and to allow love to rule our intents and subsequent actions regardless of how strong a desire might in fact be. If there is only one impulse of desire upon the will, the will is bound by necessity and is not free to choose anything. If there is only one possible consequent for any given antecedent, the will is not free to choose anything. One can ONLY do as it wills.


The will sustains to the doing the realtionship of a cause, and by no means is there the slightest sense of freedom sustained in any relatioship between the will and the doing. One is bound to do as one wills.

If a man is simply a product of the impulses of the sensibilities, and those are only selfish in nature, man is a mere product of necessity. To punish a man for failure to overcome a necessitated fate is about as far removed from any semblance of justice that can possibly be imagined. To consider that God made us that way is simply unthinkable. If so, we paint a most heinous and wicked blight upon His character, for indeed the would make Him the author of our wickedness.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

AW: I don't know what thee fuss is about.

HP: The fuss is about the confusion between ‘desire’ and a ‘choice,’ or ‘intent,’ of the will. When no distinction is made, you have man driven by mere necessitated impulses, eliminating all freedom and subsequent praise or blame, in effect eliminating any morality altogether.

God associates blame with man’s actions, providing clear evidence that man is not necessitated by sheer impulses of desire, but rather is a free moral agent commanded to choose between desires, not necessitated to simply be driven by any.

 

[Pastor Larry]

I have been waiting on another thread for those such as yourself that use the word desires, to define that word for us. Would you be so kind as to do that for the list? Thanks.

Not sure what other thread you are referring to, but it is indeed hard to imagine that anything could be more self-evident. His desires are the inclinations of his will. It is what he "wants" or "wills" to do.

Still looking and cannot find it. Could you show us clearly by giving us your explanation at least in some detail so we can connect the dots as you see them connected? Thanks.

Are you really unfamilair with this? It never ceases to amaze me how many people have dogmatic opinions about something without actuually understanding the issues involved.

Romans 5:18-19 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. 19 For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteou

The words "as through ... even so" indicate that a modus operandi is in view. The point is that we become sinners in the same way that we become righteous. How do we become righteous? Through the imputation of Christ's righteousness to us. We do not earn it; we do not get it by an act of righteousness.

The same thign is true of us becoming sinners. We do not earn it; we do not get it by an act of sin. It is imputed to us.

If you deny the imputation of Adam's sin, then you deny the only basis of salvation in Christ. If you became a sinner by sinning, then you must become righteous by doing righteousness. Only if you became a sinner by imputation can you become righteous by grace of imputation.

What sort of a taskmaster would punish a man for something they have not even heard of? Not a Fair and Just God, that is for sure.

All men have heard. Rom 1:19-21 make it clear that all men know so that they are without excuse.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Goodmorning Pastor Larry,
Would you mind reading a post I sent to Brandon Jones?

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=33821&page=3

It is post #26. I believe this might 'possibly' help you understand the questions I am raising concerning 'desires.'

Thanks!!

 

[Pastor Larry]

Not sure what the relevance of that is. It sounds like a very philosophical explanation of a very simple biblical issue.

The biblical issue is that God demand obedience. If you do not obey him, for whatever reason, you are guilty. Ignorance or inability is no excuse or escape.

For example take Judas. From eternity past it was declared that Judas would betray Christ. He had no option. Yet as Christ said, "The Son of Man is to go, just as it is written of Him; but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had not been born." (Matt 26:24). Clearly Judas was morally culpable even though he had no "choice."

In addition, the "inability" is a moral inability, brought on by man's sinful state. It is not God's fault that he can't respond. A guy who sits around and eats twinkies and bon-bons all day for 25 years can't blame anyone but himself that he is unable to get out of his chair. Unsaved man has the physical capability to respond. He could; he simply does not want to. He does not "will" to come to Christ in obedience. And while God will save "whosoever will," he will not save those who "won't."

We are too fond of putting God into our box of human sensibilities rather than accepting what God says about himself.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

(concerning Pastor Larry's post)
HP: I am going to stop her for now and try my best to address the issues you raise in your post on separate threads. It seems as though we go round and round in generalities and get no where. Instead of just going tit for tat with disagreements, I am going to start a thread on the issue you and Bobby Ryan raise concerning the notion that all have heard the gospel. This seems to be a watershed issue that affects so many discussions.

I am not avoiding anything you wrote, and will get around to each issue wrote in due time. I will say now that the imputation of Christ’s righteous or the imputation of Adam’s sins ‘as you suggest they are to be understood’ is not taught in Scripture. Those are assumed doctrines founded upon the false Augustinian/Calvinistic system of thought that believes in constitutional depravity known as the doctrine of original sin.

As a side note on Psalms 51, it has been suggested that the Psalm deals with David’s sins not that of his mother. I would agree in part with that assessment. The context of the Psalm deals directly with his sins, but what it does NOT do is to establish the Augustian dogma contrary to the beliefs of the Jews in constitutional depravity. In verse 5 David specifically mentions the sin of his mother, in that sin was involved in his conception. He is not blaming his sins on his mother, but was sharing that even from his very conception, sin had had a major impact on what he would become. His mother’s sin was indeed an influence or an occasion which played a part in sins he committed latter on, or at least he must have felt that way at the time he wrote that Psalm.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Pastor Larry: The biblical issue is that God demand obedience. If you do not obey him, for whatever reason, you are guilty. Ignorance or inability is no excuse or escape.

HP: You fail to distinguish what constitutes guilt and subsequent penalties under moral law and what constitutes guilt and subsequent penalties involved in moral law. Again this is yet another issue that needs to be addressed by itself.

For instance, Ignorance or inability is no excuse necessarily under civil law (outside of criminal law) but ignorance and inability do in fact affect moral law.

These discussions are where my heart is at, but they don't pay the billls of get my tasks done at home. I do not pray to be disabled so I can spend more time in these important discussions, or that my wife would go to Walmart so as to free me from her warnings that I am spending too much time online, but I do wish I could devote even more time than I do now. Pray one for another that we might use our time wisely and be found at the Master's business when He comes for us again! Pray that in everything we do and discuss that the love of God and love one to another might be evident in ALL our discussions, and that we may live up to our understanding in our daily walk before God, our families, and the world around us!

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

PL: For example take Judas. From eternity past it was declared that Judas would betray Christ. He had no option. Yet as Christ said, "The Son of Man is to go, just as it is written of Him; but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had not been born." (Matt 26:24). Clearly Judas was morally culpable even though he had no "choice."

HP: I will try and squeeze in a post or two. My wife went to Walmart! I am not sure that was the best answer to my possible wishes though.

In order to arrive at your conclusion, you have to have a presupposition in place, that if God foreknows it will come to pass that proves that necessity as opposed to freedom was at stake. That I do not believe is a trustworthy presupposition. We have had many discussion on this list in the past on foreknowledge, but I will just say this. Our foreknowledge is limited to things of necessity, but God’s is not. He has the ability we ourselves as humans do nor possess, in that He can foreknow matters of perfect choice as well as matters of necessity, thereby knowing what is to come to pass without necessitating it.

When you say that Judas had no choice because God foreknew his actions, you are limiting an Infinite God to a foreknowledge like as we possess as humans. Remember? God’s ways are higher than our ways, and possesses abilities far beyond those we possess.

 

[webdog]

The biblical issue is that God demand obedience. If you do not obey him, for whatever reason, you are guilty. Ignorance or inability is no excuse or escape.

If God demands obedience...and doesn't give the ability to obey...that is not justice. ARe you trying to tell me that man can be more just than God?