Why do people ultimatively go to hell?

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Southern: Romans 5 is comparing the work of Adam and its effects on “all” (in him) with the work of Christ on “all” (in him). (see also 1 Cor. 15:22,23)

HP: So now the word ‘many’ really means ‘all?’

Southern: You seem to be saying that the only connection that Adam has in “making” us sinners is by example. Could you please clarify on this point. For example, when you mention “influence”, exactly how are we influenced specifically by Adam (vs. 19)?

I am trying to understand how Adam merely setting an example (if that is indeed your position) can compare to Paul saying that we were made sinners through Adam:

HP: we are greatly influenced by the sin of Adam and its curse upon the human race. Physical depravity worsening over time even from birth has increased greatly the natural proclivity to sin. The examples and habits of men over the centuries has also created environments conducive for a formidable influence and occasions to sin.

Sin is not a contagion passed on by physical means as Augustine made us to believe. (Did he force us or have some willingly accepted what he offered? Was his influence force or coercion or simply an influence to a certain set of beliefs?) Sin does not lie in the physical constitution of man, but rather is a pronouncement of God upon certain intents and subsequent actions denoting and judging them as selfishness as opposed to benevolence. Sin is willful disobedience against a known commandment of God.

Make no mistake. Scripture informs us clearly that we all are sinners, even in this chapter. Why? Because “all have sinned.” God calls on every last living person to repent. That is a clear indication that sin is indeed a universal problem.

The point we should be willing to agree on and limit our doctrinal statements to are simply, ALL men are indeed sinners and in need of a Savior, and that NONE can be righteous before the Lord apart from His atoning work for sins that are past and His influence upon our daily lives as we walk obedient with Him.

Southern: 19For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous. (NIV)

Finally, It seems that we agree (in a sense) that we are made righteous by the imputation of Christ’s righteousness. However, given Paul’s comparison in verse 19 above, it seems that Paul is saying that we are “made righteous” (which you seem to acknowledge is by imputation) in the same way that we are “made sinners” (which would have to be by imputation for the parallel to hold). But again, only you can present your position.

HP: I hope I clarified the import and meaning of the word ‘made’ in the paragraphs above concerning moral agents and their chosen intents and subsequent actions of selfishness or benevolence. NOTHING can sustain to the will of man the relationship of a cause without destroying moral accountability. Man must be able to something other than he does under the very same set of circumstances in order to be accountable in a moral way for such intents and subsequent actions. In order to do anything blameworthy or praiseworthy, man cannot be forced or coerced, but must have choice.

Scripture specifically states that sin cannot be imputed to you on the account of anothers transgressions. Every man is accountable for his own sins. Scripture is plain and straightforward.


Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

 

[Link]

Andrew Wommack said that nobody goes to hell because of his sins because God has dealt with all our sins. A person goes to hell for rejecting Jesus. Is this biblically correct?

This doesn't seem Biblical to me. A friend of mine, who is a missionary now, once said that no one goes to hell for not hearing the Gospel. People go to hell for sinning against God. (That was his answer to the question, 'What about all those people who have not heard the Gospel?')

Paul says that people will be judged for deeds done in the body. I don't see this theory of Wommack in scripture.

Link

 

[webdog]

Does anyone have the abilty to obey theses verses?


Matthew 5:48,
"Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect"

Corinthians 15:34,
"Awake to righteousness and sin not"

1 John 2:1,
"My little children, these things I write unto you, that ye sin not"


Is this just?

Do you think it's true...or a lie?

 

[webdog]

Jarthur,

I don't think you'll find "ought implies can" in the scriptures. However, you may find that in the book of 1 or 2nd Pelagius. :smilewinkgrin:

You do find hyperbole and similie used in teaching.

 

[Jarthur001]

HP: Did Christ have the abilities necessary to obey these commandments?

Paul stated, “Ga 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.”

Did Paul have the abilities you ask about? Why wouldn’t it be just to require out of man no more than what God promises to supply all the needed strength to perform?

Was stated...

Originally Posted by webdog
If God demands obedience...and doesn't give the ability to obey...that is not justice. ARe you trying to tell me that man can be more just than God?

I posted verses showing that we are TOLD to never sin....yet we sin. I do anyway. do you? So to claim it is unjust...is well...unjust.

 

[Jarthur001]

Do you think it's true...or a lie?

do I think the verse is true?

The verse DEMANDS we never sin. I sin..maybe you do not. But the Bible says we all sin...save and unsaved.

So when you state...

Originally Posted by webdog
If God demands obedience...and doesn't give the ability to obey...that is not justice.

And when the Bible says...

Sin not!!!


What is that unjust?

 

[webdog]

What is that unjust?

Ahh...but you wrongly assume we can not choose to sin. The verses you posted only go to prove the fact that man can keep 99.999% of the Law and still be found guilty, nothing more, nothing less. God demands perfection. We cannot comply fully. God gives us an opportunity to escape His wrath. We choose to accept or reject. Verdict is in. Case closed.

 

[Southern]

HP: “I CAN do ALL things through Christ which strengthens me.” As I recall, that is in Scriptures, although it might well be quoted in the books you mention. I just have not read 1 or 2 Pelagius.

PS: I will try and get to your last post tomorrow. Have a great day in the Lord!

Paul was a saved man and could do everything that Christ gave him the power to do.

Again, thank you ahead of time. I really appreciate you. :thumbsup:

 

[BobRyan]

HP: Did Christ have the abilities necessary to obey these commandments?

Paul stated, “Ga 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.”

Did Paul have the abilities you ask about? Why wouldn’t it be just to require out of man no more than what God promises to supply all the needed strength to perform?

Matt 7 - not everyone who SAYS Lord Lord but those who DO the will of My Father.

Romans 2:10-13 "Not the hearers but the DOERS of the Law will be JUSTIFIED".

1 John 2:3-10 the one who "SAYS" that He knows Christ but then does not WALK as Christ WALKED - does not KEEP His Commandments - is a liar.

Pretty strong words from the NT if you ask me.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

JArthur001: yet we sin. I do anyway. do you?

HP: Truth is not based on the experiences of yours or mine. In regard to the sin issue, the Word of God stands sure regardless of the lives we live or don’t live.

You seem to be heading down a path that we are clearly warned is not wise. “2Co 10:12 ¶ For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Link: This doesn't seem Biblical to me. A friend of mine, who is a missionary now, once said that no one goes to hell for not hearing the Gospel. People go to hell for sinning against God. (That was his answer to the question, 'What about all those people who have not heard the Gospel?')

Paul says that people will be judged for deeds done in the body.

HP: You have received some truthful and Biblical council from a wise friend.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Pastor Larry: In civil law, a judge may accept ignorance or mitigating circumstances. God’s law knows no such exceptions.

HP: First, I would just say that your comment concerning heresy was not according to truth. I hope that in time you will withdraw that comment. Meanwhile, I will not allow it to get in the way of productive discussion.

You say that God’s law knows no exeptions such as ignorance or mitigating circumstances. You sure seem to serve a hard taskmaster, reaping where He has not sown, and punishing where their was no possible alternative other than to act as one did. That is nothing short of plain injustice.

Scripture does in fact state clearly both of the exceptions you say it does not. From the OT to the NT God gives us clear examples of exceptions and mitigating circumstances. From the axe head slipping off in the OT to the following passages in the NT, honest ignorance an mitigating circumstances are clear indications that guilt is not imputed in such cases.
“Joh 9:41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.”
“Ro 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.”
“Jas 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.” This last verse clearly implies knowledge is indeed a prerequisite for sin.

 

[webdog]

Amen, HP. Way to bring justice into light.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Webdog: Amen, HP. Way to bring justice into light.

HP: Thank you Webdog, but it is indeed all via the truth of God.

An interesting point concerning justice is that Scripture is NOT the most informative place God reveals the principles involving justice. We develop our sense of justice intuitively from God via conscience, long before and even apart from Scriptures revelations, through the means of first truths of reason such as I have been discussing with Brandon Jones and others under the thread concerning Compatabilism.

This idea that if we desire truth we can only use Scripture to reason from is simply not the case. The heathen which have never heard of Scripture have some idea as to justice. Sure they may have false notions as well, but Scripture plainly states that they do the things contained in the law having not the law, and as such have became a law unto themselves.

If we are going to understand justice, we are going to have to look into the testimony of God to the conscience as seen by the examination of first truths of reason. That is God’s testimony of truth to the mind concerning justice, without which no proper understanding of justice will be understood.

 

[Jarthur001]

Ahh...but you wrongly assume we can not choose to sin. The verses you posted only go to prove the fact that man can keep 99.999% of the Law and still be found guilty, nothing more, nothing less. God demands perfection. We cannot comply fully. God gives us an opportunity to escape His wrath. We choose to accept or reject. Verdict is in. Case closed.

Am I missing something???

You posted that if God ask us to do something that we cannot ...then God is not just.....

Originally Posted by webdog
If God demands obedience...and doesn't give the ability to obey...that is not justice.....

I post verse showing God does ask us to obey in ways that we can never live up to...

Here is only one of those verses again.

32If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die.

33Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.

34Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

35But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

Now this...

The verses you posted only go to prove the fact that man can keep 99.999% of the Law and still be found guilty, nothing more, nothing less.

God DOES demand obedience

We DO NOT have the ability to obey

We are guity...

This is just!!!

 

[Jarthur001]

HP: Truth is not based on the experiences of yours or mine. In regard to the sin issue, the Word of God stands sure regardless of the lives we live or don’t live.

You seem to be heading down a path that we are clearly warned is not wise. “2Co 10:12 ¶ For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise.

Hello!!!

That was a rhetorical question. The anwser is always...YES..we all sin. Not based on my words...but based on GODS word.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

JArthur: God DOES demand obedience

We DO NOT have the ability to obey

We are guity...

This is just!!!

HP: If I commanded you to stand flat footed and jump over your house, and then punished you for failure to accomplish the impossible feat, are you to tell me that your command with its corresponding penalties for failure to accomplish the impossible are just? A strange justice indeed.

 

[Magnetic Poles]

Why do people go to hell? Mark Twain had this to say about the matter:

"Go to Heaven for the climate, Hell for the company."

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

JArthur:Hello!!! That was a rhetorical question. The anwser is always...YES..we all sin. Not based on my words...but based on GODS word.

HP: Would you say then that you believe in a sinning religion? What practical good is ones religion if in fact it does not free one from sin? Are you going to lay faith in the imputed righteousness of Christ for your sins if in fact you have never had a change of heart, to the point that it can be rightfully stated that you have ceased from your former sins?

I am not here to say that once one fulfills the conditions of salvation, repenting from all sin and turning in faith and obedience to that they will never sin again, but if in fact one has not came to a place that they have indeed ceased from sin, and repented of all known sin, such a one has never been born again. There must be a point in which ones heart is made pure by faith in His blood, AS TESTIFIED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT TUR HEARTS VIA THE TESTIMONY OF A CLEAR CONSCIENCE BEFORE GOD AND MAN, or one is still in their sins.

I am curious as to how you would approach this verse. I realize it is a difficult passage, but none the less stands in stark contradiction to your post. 1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

What would you say to a person that repents and pours out his heart unto the Lord asking for forgiveness, and comes up shouting the praises of our Mighty God for cleansing their heart from all sin, exclaiming that God hath washed their hearts as pure and white as the driven snow and indeed has made them free from sin? Are you going to tell such a one that they are deceived, and still are the same old sinners they were before they started seeking the Lord?

 

[Southern]

Heavenly Pilgrim,

Again, thank you for your time. It is well appreciated. :thumbs:

You stated:

HP: So now the word ‘many’ really means ‘all?’

In Romans 5, Paul is comparing “All” those in Adam with “All” those in Christ (compare 1 Cor. 15). Paul view’s men in two categories, those in Adam and those in Christ.

HP: we are greatly influenced by the sin of Adam and its curse upon the human race. Physical depravity worsening over time even from birth has increased greatly the natural proclivity to sin. The examples and habits of men over the centuries has also created environments conducive for a formidable influence and occasions to sin.

Please be patient with me, but I am still attempting to understand how Adam “influenced” us according to your understanding of Romans 5. Paul says that it is through him that we are made sinners (vs. 19). The focus throughout this passage is the “one” sin of the “one” man and the resulting condemnation.

It is here in Romans 5 where Paul is clearly, in a Didactic portion of scripture, showing our relation to Adam and the resulting condemnation. Your position seems to be that the only sense in which we are condemned “through” Adam is by “example”, “physical depravity”, “environment”, sin nature, or some other related idea that is never mentioned by Paul even once. Paul’s focus seems to be on the “one” sin of the “one” man and its resulting condemnation. This seems strange to me, or I have possibly misunderstood you.

Make no mistake. Scripture informs us clearly that we all are sinners, even in this chapter. Why? Because “all have sinned.” God calls on every last living person to repent. That is a clear indication that sin is indeed a universal problem.

I think our disagreement in this chapter is in reference to the “all sinned” of verse 12. Notice that Paul begins a comparison in verse 12 that he does not finish until verse 19, which is certainly out of the ordinary. How do we explain this break off?

I would suggest that Paul wanted to make sure that when he said “all sinned”, that no one understood him to mean “all sinned” individually. Rather as I have already presented, they sinned “through” Adam (vs. 19; by imputation).

Paul is not needlessly repeating himself when he repeatedly basis our condemnation in the “one” sin of the “one” man (vs. 15,16,17,18,19). You seem to place the condemnation not on the one sin of the one man but on countless sins of countless individuals.

HP: Scripture specifically states that sin cannot be imputed to you on the account of anothers transgressions. Every man is accountable for his own sins. Scripture is plain and straightforward.

I disagree with this statement on the grounds that if sin cannot be imputed based on another’s (Adams) transgression, then it would have to be true that righteousness cannot be imputed based on another’s (Jesus) perfect life. The principles are the same (vs. 19). It seems that to be consistent with this principle one must deny the imputed righteousness of Christ and hence the Gospel itself. (I am not saying that you specifically deny the gospel!)

You then quoted Ezekiel:

Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Before I address Ezekiel 18, I need to know if you acknowledge that God does in fact sometimes punish people for what others have done:
Jeremiah 32:18
You show lovingkindness to thousands, and repay the iniquity of the fathers into the bosom of their children after them--the Great, the Mighty God, whose name is the Lord of hosts.


May God bless us both!