Why do people ultimatively go to hell?

[Brother Bob]

Rom 5:14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

 

[Jarthur001]

HP: If I commanded you to stand flat footed and jump over your house, and then punished you for failure to accomplish the impossible feat, are you to tell me that your command with its corresponding penalties for failure to accomplish the impossible are just? A strange justice indeed.

Is there unrighteousness with God?

We are only one man to another man and we have a justice that is not like unto God. Your views place the Creator in obligation to the creature. It is God that made you. It is God that made the world. It is God that rules and controls all things. It is God that will judge. God is Holy and all His ways are true. God would be just to send all mankind to hell. Is there unrighteousness with God?

ROM 9
Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Left up the glory and power of your God. Do not fight for your right. Do not think God is unjust to demand holy a life.

Is there unrighteousness with God?

ROM 9

.....Esau have I hated.

14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

ISH 40
With whom took he counsel, and who instructed him, and taught him in the path of judgment, and taught him knowledge, and shewed to him the way of understanding?

All nations before him are as nothing; and they are counted to him less than nothing, and vanity.

REV 19....
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

16And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

17And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

18That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

Is there unrighteousness with God?

 

[Jarthur001]

HP: Would you say then that you believe in a sinning religion? What practical good is ones religion if in fact it does not free one from sin? Are you going to lay faith in the imputed righteousness of Christ for your sins if in fact you have never had a change of heart, to the point that it can be rightfully stated that you have ceased from your former sins?

I am not here to say that once one fulfills the conditions of salvation, repenting from all sin and turning in faith and obedience to that they will never sin again, but if in fact one has not came to a place that they have indeed ceased from sin, and repented of all known sin, such a one has never been born again. There must be a point in which ones heart is made pure by faith in His blood, AS TESTIFIED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT TUR HEARTS VIA THE TESTIMONY OF A CLEAR CONSCIENCE BEFORE GOD AND MAN, or one is still in their sins.

I am curious as to how you would approach this verse. I realize it is a difficult passage, but none the less stands in stark contradiction to your post. 1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

What would you say to a person that repents and pours out his heart unto the Lord asking for forgiveness, and comes up shouting the praises of our Mighty God for cleansing their heart from all sin, exclaiming that God hath washed their hearts as pure and white as the driven snow and indeed has made them free from sin? Are you going to tell such a one that they are deceived, and still are the same old sinners they were before they started seeking the Lord?

My ol my...this has to be the most Pelagius statement I have heard on the BB. Surely not even the Arminianims will agree with this. I jusy finished a course of early church history, so Pelagius words are fresh in my mind.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Southern: In Romans 5, Paul is comparing “All” those in Adam with “All” those in Christ (compare 1 Cor. 15). Paul view’s men in two categories, those in Adam and those in Christ

.

HP: Forgive me for being redundant, but the word used is ‘many’ not ‘all’ in the verse in question is it not?

Southern: I am still attempting to understand how Adam “influenced” us according to your understanding of Romans 5. Paul says that it is through him that we are made sinners (vs. 19).

HP: Adam indeed got the ball rolling and the influence to sin started. It is via his sin that we inherited physical depravity, a most formidable proclivity to sin. Adam does not force us to sin, neither does Christ force us to righteousness. “I stand at the door and knock”
It may well be said, that if I am a bad example, that I indeed might make others to sin, or that I have made others to fall. This is not to say that I forced them in any way, but rather by my example and influence I was the occasion to sin that influenced them to the point that when they yielded their wills voluntarily to the temptation, Still in common parlance it can rightfully stated I ‘made’ them sin.
If in fact I forced them to sin (a statement like unto an oxymoron) their wills would not have been involved, and no choice would have been made on their parts, for necessity was in force not freedom. If this is the case, no morality can be predicated of their actions due to the fact that no choice was made on their part and without a possible choice between love or benevolence. In this case, no sin can be predicated and no morality indicated.

Southern: It is here in Romans 5 where Paul is clearly, in a Didactic portion of scripture, showing our relation to Adam and the resulting condemnation. Your position seems to be that the only sense in which we are condemned “through” Adam is by “example”, “physical depravity”, “environment”, sin nature, or some other related idea that is never mentioned by Paul even once.

HP: Why should this seem so strange to you? Is not your position that Adam’s sin is imputed to us and that in fact is not in the text either. I am trying to tell you why I reached that conclusions I do, but you just seem to accept the presupposition that imputation of sin is implied. You have not even attempted to justify your reasoning or harmonize your conclusions with universal facts concerning justice and morality, the very basic God given building blocks of truths surrounding moral questions.

Southern: I think my disagreement in this chapter is in reference to the “all sinned” of verse 12. However if you will notice, Paul begins a comparison in verse 12 that he does not finish until verse 19, which is certainly out of the ordinary. How do we explain this break off?

HP: I simply do not se any such hard breaks or starts of a separate idea in verse 12. One thing I do see plainly is the reason why condemnation has come upon all men is due to the fact that “all have sinned” not imputed sin.

Southern: I would suggest that Paul wanted to make sure that when he said “all sinned”, that no one understood him to mean “all sinned” individually. Rather as I have already presented, they sinned “through” Adam (vs. 19; by imputation).

HP: That would be a convenient idea to help establish your position, but where is the evidence such is the case? You beg the question.

Southern: It seems to me is not needlessly repeating himself when he repeatedly basis our condemnation in the “one” sin of the “one” man (vs. 15,16,17,18,19). You seem to place the condemnation not on the one sin of the one man but on countless sins of countless individuals.

HP: Not totally. The very fact that we, as physical descendants of Adams have received, via his sin, a real proclivity and strong influence of habitual examples of selfish behavior to sin due to the physical depravity we inherit and the examples sin has set before us, it can be rightfully stated that we have inherited ‘condemnation’ IN A SENSE as a result of his sin. Just as my son may indeed make a willful choice on his own to sin, but not forced or coerced by me in any way, due to a poor example of myself as a father, it can be rightfully stated in a sense that his condemnation is a result of my sin. That is a far cry from sating that my sin is imputed to my son. Scripture again clearly states, Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
Christ’s righteousness is not imputed as generally explained by the stated Calvinist approach. God made an atonement, for sins, that addressed His law and the corresponding penalty, and only applies the blood to the hearts of those that have had a change of heart towards their sin. Just as the will of man is involved directly in their sin, it is involved as well in the receiving of His gift of salvation. We are not saved for the sake of our involvement, but neither will we be saved apart from our involvement. Salvation takes two things to be accomplished, the plan designed and orchestrated by God in combination with the willing obedience on the behalf of the individual. Righteousness will never be imputed to man simply upon the grounds of the atonement, for the atonement made the way for salvation to be possible, by building the bridge between the demands of Gods law and the guilty sinner, but without the free will choice of man to be obedient to the offer, no salvation is or will be accomplished. His atonement stands ready and willing to save, but is not applied to our hearts and lives until we voluntarily yield our selfish wills without compulsion, force, or coercion, to his offer.

Christ stands as the door with His offer and provision, and knocks.

Southern: Before I address Ezekiel 18, I need to know if you acknowledge that God does in fact sometimes punish people for what others have done:
Jeremiah 32:18
You show lovingkindness to thousands, and repay the iniquity of the fathers into the bosom of their children after them--the Great, the Mighty God, whose name is the Lord of hosts.

HP: I smell a rat.

Sure He does, IN A SENSE. This still does not equate to imputed sinfulness, neither does punishment in this sense spell out anything necessarily ‘eternal’ in nature. The penalty for sin is eternal separation from God.

I would prefer, if you would be so kind, not to delve into this area too deeply at this time. You are taking a Scripture that was used during a time of specific instruction known as a schoolmaster that does not, if understood correctly, (my point of view ) appear as it really might seem at first glance, and is sharply contrasted in verses such as I have posted above.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

JArthur: I jusy finished a course of early church history, so Pelagius words are fresh in my mind.

HP: Oh really? This is great! I have always desired to read him myself, but it appears that Augustine did a pretty good job of burning all he had ever written. Would you mind posting his quote for us? I would be greatly appreciative.

Who knows with all the modern day technology at our disposal what can come from the ashes of Augustine's fires?

Thanks!!

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

JAuthur: Is there unrighteousness with God?

HP: Not in the least. Neither is there any absurdities that exist between His revelation to our minds via first truths of reason and His revelation to us in Scripture.

By the way, how far have you gotten so far on that house jumping feat? :BangHead: :smilewinkgrin:

 

[Brother Bob]

Tell you fellows something. If I am the only one on here that has a laugh every once in a while then you all missing a big part of the BB. After I go to bed at night I have a good laugh some nights, not always though. lol

 

[webdog]

We are only one man to another man and we have a justice that is not like unto God.

You mean God created us with a better justice system than the one He employs...or that He created us to believe that in our eyes, our justice seems more fair than God's? Strange, indeed.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Laughter; good medicine for the soul...…….or was that the spirit?

JJ, where art thou? :tonofbricks:

 

[Jarthur001]

HP: Oh really? This is great! I have always desired to read him myself, but it appears that Augustine did a pretty good job of burning all he had ever written. Would you mind posting his quote for us? I would be greatly appreciative.

Who knows with all the modern day technology at our disposal what can come from the ashes of Augustine's fires?

Thanks!!

Oh really....??

http://www.amazon.com/dp/0851152821/?tag=baptis04-20

sorry sold out.

Still laughing?

I'll have a better source tomorrow. Make sure you check back.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Webdog: You mean God created us with a better justice system than the one He employs...or that He created us to believe that in our eyes, our justice seems more fair than God's? Strange, indeed.

HP: Why is it that when we try and explain that God’s foreknowledge is greater than ours it falls on so many deaf ears, but the words “God’s ways are greater than our ways” are echoed back every time an absurdity concerning our clear God-given impressions via first truths of reason concerning justice is pointed out? Strange indeed.

 

[Jarthur001]

You mean God created us with a better justice system than the one He employs...or that He created us to believe that in our eyes, our justice seems more fair than God's? Strange, indeed.

Are you saying this to me...or God? I quoted verse...if you think God is unfair, take it up with Him. I only believe what He wrote. If He says it is ok to change His word...let me know.

 

[Jarthur001]

HP: Not in the least. Neither is there any absurdities that exist between His revelation to our minds via first truths of reason and His revelation to us in Scripture.

By the way, how far have you gotten so far on that house jumping feat? :BangHead: :smilewinkgrin:

You make up stories to prove your point...

I quote the Bible...

Now...go bang that head more...i don't think it is helping..

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

JArthur: If He says it is ok to change His word...let me know.

HP: I asked and He said it wasn’t ok, that it was not just………..I wonder what He meant by that?

 

[Jarthur001]

HP: Why is it that when we try and explain that God’s foreknowledge is greater than ours it falls on so many deaf ears, but the words “God’s ways are greater than our ways” are echoed back every time an absurdity concerning our clear God-given impressions via first truths of reason concerning justice is pointed out? Strange indeed.

what verse was an absurdity? This I got to hear.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

JArthur: what verse was an absurdity? This I got to hear.

HP: I was not referring to the verse, but rather the interpretation of verses, such as taking the verse someone mentioned concerning Esau as being hated by God, as if God hated him without a cause showing Himself to be a respecter of persons when he clearly states He is not. That to me is an absurd interpretation in light of the idea of justice God has engrained within our basic moral framework via first truths of reason.

 

[Jarthur001]

HP: I was not referring to the verse, but rather the interpretation of verses, such as taking the verse someone mentioned concerning Esau as being hated by God, as if God hated him without a cause showing Himself to be a respecter of persons when he clearly states He is not. That to me is an absurd interpretation in light of the idea of justice God has engrained within our basic moral framework via first truths of reason.

tis bible dude. Believe it..or change it. I would be glad to take this up in a debate if you want. Start the thread..and we will see if God hates or not.

BTW...he is another book on the guy close to your doctrine.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/0198269803/?tag=baptis04-20

review..........

7 of 7 people found the following review helpful:

Want to understand Pelagianism? Read Pelagius!, May 9, 2001
Reviewer: D. Biberdorf (Houston, TX USA) - See all my reviews

This book is very helpful for students of theology (amateurs or those pursuing a theological degree) in understanding what Pelagianism is all about. It is quite popular for some Western Christians to attack any form of synergism as "Pelagian". Reading this book opened my own eyes to Pelagius's teaching and what was wrong with it. With careful reading, Pelagius's subtle error -- that man is a completely neutral being, independent of the Triune God, looking out over a range of equally possible moral options -- becomes apparent. After reading this, I decided that no one should call anything "Pelagian" without reading any Pelagius.

There is a much better book by oxford. It was in my lesson. I should have it in the morning


Would you like to read more?

http://www.themystica.com/mystica/articles/p/Pelagius.html Make sure you go to the home page...

If you love Pelagius, you will also love this...from the same site

http://www.themystica.org/mystica/writings/focusing_on_the_human_virtural_universe.html

 

[Jarthur001]

That to me is an absurd interpretation in light of the idea of justice God has engrained within our basic moral framework via first truths of reason.

Now that is what I'm talking about. This is your thoughts of God...based on how you view Him. You hate for anyone to say God is anyway other then how you see Him. To read..God hate...makes you mad...for in your eyes ...your God could never Hate.

How dare the Bible say that about your God!!!!

Your God is FAIR.

How DARE the Bible say God gives grace to some more then others!!!

Your God LOVES every body

How dare the Bible claim He choose some!!!!

You will go to all means to protect your God.

If you need to change the Bible...so be it.


Maybe because it is Gods word...maybe we should just believe it. what do you think?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

JArthur: There is a much better book by oxford. It was in my lesson. I should have it in the morning

HP: Remember, it is not a book written about Pelagius we are needing, nor the words of his detractor Augustine. We desire to be read those words penned by Pelagius himself that lie indelibly written upon the creases of your cranial tissues as a result of your recent studies.

If the book you are looking for is entitled “The Doctrines of Pelagius as Seen Through the Smoke Screen of Biased Augustinian Fires,” I have heard from a reliable source that it cannot be trusted as factual.

Just the same, I have an open mind and an attentive listening ear.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavenly Pilgrim

That to me is an absurd interpretation in light of the idea of justice God has engrained within our basic moral framework via first truths of reason.

JArthur: Now that is what I'm talking about. This is your thoughts of God...based on how you view Him.

HP: Yes, and according to the imprint He places of Himself and His attributes via first truths of reason.

JA: You hate for anyone to say God is anyway other then how you see Him. To read..God hate...makes you mad...for in your eyes ...your God could never Hate.

HP: It is time to come clean. What have you been smoking? I believe what?

JA: Your God is FAIR.

HP: That is our God is ‘Just.’

JA: How DARE the Bible say God gives grace to some more then others!!!’’

HP: Ro 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

JA: Your God LOVES every body

HP: You are not only warm, you are HOT!

JA: How dare the Bible claim He choose some!!!!

HP: It is not that He does not just choose some, it is all about how He does the choosing.

JA: Maybe because it is Gods word...maybe we should just believe it. what do you think?

HP: I think you are walking in the light of Augustines fires. See how easy it is to misrepresent anothers views when you have to sift them out of the smoke of fires due to your own making?