Why do people ultimatively go to hell?

[jne1611]

HP: Sorry for misunderstanding you. You exemplify a first truth of reason, in that you instinctively know that the praise you received was not justified in that there was no choice on your part that merited it, but rather it was due to a simple misunderstanding. In order to do anything praiseworthy or blameworthy, one must have choice. There is no morality possible apart from this first truth, and no morality can be predicated of any intent unless a contrary choice was possible.

Now concerning the issue of physical death even in infants, one thing is certain, it is not due to imputed sin. Physical death is due to a physical connection to Adam. God shortened his span of life, and because we are partakers of his nature (i.e. physical nature,) we indeed inherit the certainty of physical depravity and subsequent death.

If you say that infants who die somehow indicate that they are sinful, you end up with a peck full of problems. First, Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law. If the curse of the law spoken of is physical death, why would believers die when Christ has already made an atonement to atone for our sins and to free us from the curse of the law? If you say it is because they still have sin, then you have made the atoning work of Christ less than effective to atone for all sin. If you say that all believers still have sin, how can the Apostle Paul be seen as correct when he states repeatedly that we have been ‘made free from sin?’

I believe that physical death as we know it today, especially the timing of when it occurs, is indeed a consequence of sin, but it is not the penalty of sin. Christ’s atoning work does not free us from the physical depravity of this world and physical death necessarily, but rather frees us from the justice of the laws demands on sins that are past. The mere fact of physical death is in no wise an indication of present or imputed sin, in adults or especially in infants. It simply is a clear indicator that we are descendants of Adam, and as his physical offspring, we inherit physical depravity.

If physical death is a sign of imputed sin, what about Enoch and Elijah that never saw death? How did they miss the imputed guilt, or were they not human?

Believers are spiritually incorruptible, but our bodies are not. That is why we must put on in corruption at Christ's coming.

 

[jne1611]

1. HP physical death is definitely linked to our sin nature. Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
2. We are free from sin, yes, spiritually, but not physically. Paul called himself a "wretched man" Rom. 7:24, and he was saved. We still have enough evidence in our physical sin nature to prove that it will be salvation by grace or not at all.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Now what would you guys (and or gals) see as so special about being associated with Pelagius? Was there not about three convened councils, trumped up by Augustine to try and throw him out on his heels that ended up finding no fault with him or the doctrines he preached, as I recall?

 

[J.D.]

Good night folks. It's been both edifying and entertaining tonight! (I can't find the smiley's for some reason so just imagine that this is a smiley face waving bye-bye).

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

JD: Good night folks.

HP: You sure picked a fine time to leave us Lucille!:smilewinkgrin:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Jne1611: 1. HP physical death is definitely linked to our sin nature. Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

HP: Where is any such ‘sin nature’ mentioned in this verse? Death passed upon all men due to the fact that ‘all have sinned,’ not some sin nature.

Jne1611: 2. We are free from sin, yes, spiritually, but not physically. Paul called himself a "wretched man" Rom. 7:24, and he was saved. We still have enough evidence in our physical sin nature to prove that it will be salvation by grace or not at all.

HP: Sin is not physical. Sin is and only can be spiritual. Sin is a willful transgression of a known commandment of God that is condemned and judged by God as being blameworthy. To blame a man for the physical nature he is born with is tantamount to punishing a man for being born with blue eyes. Some justice that would represent.

 

[BobRyan]

Rom 3
19Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God;

Do NOT miss this!!! Draw a BIG Key in your Bible next to this verse. Paul uses KEY PHRASES. To understand Paul you must know HIS definition for HIS key phrases. The key phrase above is "UNDER THE LAW". In today's rebellion many WANT the term to mean "those that WANT to OBEY the LAW are those UNDER the LAW". Paul's Gospel in chapter 2 already fully refutes that. Here in chapter 3 Paul spells it out clearly - "UNDER THE LAW" is his term used to expose the idea of being fully CONDEMNED by the LAW. His term "become ACCOUNTABLE to God" is used exclusively in the NEGATIVE condemning sense. Need more proof? vs 20!

20because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

Paul makes the point clearly here that he has NOT used the LAW as a MEANS of salvation. He also gives us ANOTHER KEY PHRASE - "works of the LAW". This concept IS NOT USED in context of someone that accepts Christ as Savior and then chooses to OBEY God. Rather it is CLEARLY used as an ALTERNATE to a Savior. This is not about someone COMBINING Salvation with OBEDIENCE it is about someone DENYING the need of salvation and opting for a system of WORKS without the Savior.

Paul's statement also tells us that as long as the concept of SIN is valid (as long as a being has the possibility of Sinning) the LAW exists and is in force, for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

 

[BobRyan]

1. HP physical death is definitely linked to our sin nature. Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
2. We are free from sin, yes, spiritually, but not physically. Paul called himself a "wretched man" Rom. 7:24, and he was saved. We still have enough evidence in our physical sin nature to prove that it will be salvation by grace or not at all.

Good points.

 

[BobRyan]

You must have misread my post. I was talking about his theology of salvation of all infants not imputed sin. Infants die do they not? If so, is sin not the cause?

Yes it is.

They would not die in a sinless earth.

 

[BobRyan]

Well well well....

What do we have hear?

Please ....Please I ask you...do not call me a prophet. It was really easy to see. HP clearly is into Pelagianism. I called it 1st...i get all book copyrights...you heard it here 1st folks. And...it seems he has a bit of pride in this stand.

This will be strange to be on Bob R side....But even Bob knows Arminian hold to the fall of man nearly as the same as John Calvin. Arminian was a one point Calvinist. I as a Calvinist have a view that is 2 fold guilt of man. This is not the same as Bobs view. I will let Bob go 1st. This time I will just take the left overs. Go for it Bob.

Indeed we do agree on this one thing - that Romans 3 defines a sinful nature that is totally without merrit and UNNABLE to choose right.

It is only through the supernatural drawing of God (John 12:32, Genesis 3 "I will put emnity between her seed and your seed") that sinful mankind is enabled to act.

Romans 3 makes this clear.

Here Paul shows complete argeement with his own point just made - "there is no partiality with God" Romans 2:11 All are declared
to be "unrighteous" and in need of a savior - in need of repentance in chapter 3.

All who come to God must come to Him in "repentance" for sins - Romans 2:4 "For it is the kindness of God that leads you to repentance". Chapter two had the "starting context" of Gospel repentance and contrasts those who accept that Gospel gift vs
those who reject it and remain in rebellion.

Chapter 3 establishes the pre-Gospel context of sinful nature - without repentance, without the new birth, without the New
Covenant. None righteous, no one with the New Covenant promise of the Law written on the tablets of the human heart. (2Cor 3:3,
Heb 8:10). Its starting point is the lost state - before accepting the Gospel. The total depravity of the sinful nature - enslaved
to sin.

All have sinned - all need repentance - God will not be partial to any - either you accept repentance and forgiveness or you
will remain in your sins - for all have sinned.

Romans 3:

11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;
12 ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS; THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE."
13 "THEIR THROAT IS AN OPEN GRAVE, WITH THEIR TONGUES THEY KEEP DECEIVING," "THE POISON OF ASPS IS UNDER THEIR LIPS";
14 "WHOSE MOUTH IS FULL OF CURSING AND BITTERNESS";
15 "THEIR FEET ARE SWIFT TO SHED BLOOD,
16 DESTRUCTION AND MISERY ARE IN THEIR PATHS,
17 AND THE PATH OF PEACE THEY HAVE NOT KNOWN."
18 "THERE IS NO FEAR OF GOD BEFORE THEIR EYES."

Notice how Paul is doing his best to set all upon level ground - no matter the heritage ":no partiality with God", all have sinned
all stand in need of salvation - all are in need of "the kindness of God that leads you to repentance"-

Paul has asserted that we must individually confess our NEED of Salvation and accept the offer of repentance made to ALL. Now here in chapter 3 he presents the ugliest possible portrayal of the unsaved, un-regenerate, unChristlike nature. He declares that ALL are in this state in God's eyes - before they are born again. ALL are in NEED of A Savior. Paul shows mankind as depraved and enslaved
to sin. Indeed in Romans 8 he affirms the unregenerate heart "does not subject itself to the law of God - indeed it can NOT".

Those that argue this is the state of man AFTER receiving our Savior, being born again and having his law written in our heart -- are denying the benefits provided by Christ saving us from BOTH the penalty of sin and saving us FROM sin. "Faithful to forgive us
our sins AND to cleans us from all unrighteousness". 1John 1:9

Paul is denying the charge that JEWS coast in first class but Gentiles alone are sinners and can come in only if they avail themselves of the Gospel offer of repentance that we saw in Romans 2:4..

ALL are called to repent, acknowledge our need of Christ and then become "DOERS of the Law" Romans 2:13

Paul describes man's NEED for a Savior in global terms -- "ALL have sinned". Terms that apply to all mankind in our depraved - natural sinful nature The infallible text above IS NOT speaking of the Gospel fact of Gal 2:20 that declares "The LIFE I Now live in the flesh I LIVE by faith" .Paul is not arguing that we live a depraved, sinful - enslaved life "by faith" such that "It is NO LONGER I who LIVE but CHRIST that Lives IN me" - Gal 2:20 committing all these sins. The New birth, New Creation, New Covenant life of the law of God written on the tablets of the human heart (Heb 8:10, 2Cor 3:3) is not the subject of the first half of Romans 3. But it is reflected in the last verse of Romans 3.

. The text above is NOT the fruit by which Christ said in Matt 7 that we would know the TRUE teachers and prophets of God. Rather Paul is describing the life ENSLAVED to sin - fully committed to evil in God's eyes. The condition we are all in BEFORE the New Birth.

Rom 3
19Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God;

Do NOT miss this!!! Draw a BIG Key in your Bible next to this verse. Paul uses KEY PHRASES. To understand Paul you must know HIS definition for HIS key phrases. The key phrase above is "UNDER THE LAW". In today's rebellion many WANT the term to mean "those that WANT to OBEY the LAW are those UNDER the LAW". Paul's Gospel in chapter 2 already fully refutes that. Here in chapter 3 Paul spells it out clearly - "UNDER THE LAW" is his term used to expose the idea of being fully CONDEMNED by the LAW. His term "become ACCOUNTABLE to God" is used exclusively in the NEGATIVE condemning sense. Need more proof? vs 20!

20because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by Jarthur001

This will be strange to be on Bob R side....But even Bob knows Arminian hold to the fall of man nearly as the same as John Calvin. Arminian was a one point Calvinist. I as a Calvinist have a view that is 2 fold guilt of man. This is not the same as Bobs view. I will let Bob go 1st. This time I will just take the left overs. Go for it Bob.

You make me sound like some kind of paper shredder or wood chipper. Surely I come across more "genteel" than that sir - :tonofbricks:

HP and I have been getting along fairly well on the threads - until recently. But I am perfectly happy to admit that I have differences of opinion with people like HP, Brother Bob and others at times - even though I agree with them on many other points.

I welcome you having a turn on the BobR side. This should be fun.:type:

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

BR: Yes it is.

They would not die in a sinless earth.

HP: That is not the question in the least. No one is denying physical depravity as a result of sin. The question is if in fact the realization that they indeed die is in any way an indication of imputed sin. That is what is not established by the reality that infants die.

 

[BobRyan]

You are arguing about the mythical case of an infant that dies but does not have a Savior -- WHAT would be the basis for REMOVING the sinful nature from such an infant?

The propensity to SIN to rebel against God is IN the sinful nature itself according to Romans 3.

While we could argue that God would not TORMENT the infant for eternity - nor would He torment the infant at all. But might He simply let it be - as if it never was - since it had no knowledge and yet HAS a sinful nature predisposed to turn against God fully and completely?

MY argument is that the 1John 2:2 case where Christ "is the Atoning sacrifice for OUR sins and not for OUR sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD" covers your scenario so that the infant is blessed by that saving event - and the sinful nature is removed.

EVEN you have to argue 'some blessing' since the DEATH of the infant must be ended by resurrection which does not happen "naturally".

IN Christ,

Bob

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

BR: Paul's statement also tells us that as long as the concept of SIN is valid (as long as a being has the possibility of Sinning) the LAW exists and is in force,for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

HP: How can something be ‘in force’ where there is no knowledge? “Sin is not imputed where there is no law.’ Christ said if in fact ye were honestly blind, there would be no sin, but due to the fact that they admitted they understood, their sin remained. “To him that knoweth to do good and doeth it not, to HIM it is sin.”

The notion of imputed sin runs at direct antipodes with Scripture.

 

[BobRyan]

HP: How can something be ‘in force’ where there is no knowledge? “Sin is not imputed where there is no law.’ Christ said if in fact ye were honestly blind, there would be no sin, but due to the fact that they admitted they understood, their sin remained. “To him that knoweth to do good and doeth it not, to HIM it is sin.”

The notion of imputed sin runs at direct antipodes with Scripture.

As Romans 5 points out - Adam is our federal headn and in the SAME way that we can be "identified with Christ" whose righteousness we had no part in -- we can also be identified with Adam. The principle works the same for both.

You don't want to complain that you have been identified with Christ - the 2nd Adam and have claim to HIS righteousness -- but you do want to complain that you should ever have been identified with Adam and a partaker in his guilt and condemnation -- by family membership alone.

WE have been "crucified with Christ" GAl 2:20 and seated with Him in the heavenly places Eph 2.

WE were also identified with Adam - Romans 5 - and condemned - fallen humanity with sinful natures.

But you can't have one without the other.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

.

BR: You are arguing about the mythical case of an infant that dies but does not have a Savior -- WHAT would be the basis for REMOVING the sinful nature from such an infant?

The propensity to SIN to rebel against God is IN the sinful nature itself according to Romans 3.

HP: Herein do ye err. A proclivity to sin, is not sin. It is NEVER denoted in Scripture as a ‘sinful nature.’ Read James.

BR: While we could argue that God would not TORMENT the infant for eternity - nor would He torment the infant at all. But might He simply let it be - as if it never was - since it had no knowledge and yet HAS a sinful nature predisposed to turn against God fully and completely?

HP: To believe any of the above one would have to disregard the clear teachings of Scripture concerning infants. Jesus said “ for such is the kingdom of heaven.” He said that if we do not become like them, we will have no part in the kingdom. You are reading ever comment you make through the jaundiced lens of your presupposition of original sin that is unfounded by Scripture. You beg the question in every post so far that I have read that you have written concerning what you see as a sinful nature.

BR: MY argument is that the 1John 2:2 case where Christ "is the Atoning sacrifice for OUR sins and not for OUR sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD" covers your scenario so that the infant is blessed by that saving event - and the sinful nature is removed.

HP: That verse implies no such thing. You are suggesting that forgiveness is granted apart from any conditions, and that is simply not Scriptural.

BR: EVEN you have to argue 'some blessing' since the DEATH of the infant must be ended by resurrection which does not happen "naturally".

HP: Yes, but I do not profess to understand what state infants will have in heaven, nor of the nature of that blessing. Where Scripture is silent I feel in wisdom it is best to remain the same. One thing is for sure, Scripture in no way indicates that any sin whatsoever is imputed to infants, nor does it in any way indicate that they are in need of forgiveness or a Savior. They simply are not moral agents, and as such have no sin or righteousness credited to their account. They are simply innocent.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

BR: As Romans 5 points out - Adam is our federal headn and in the SAME way that we can be "identified with Christ" whose righteousness we had no part in -- we can also be identified with Adam. The principle works the same for both

.

HP: Romans 5 says nothing about any such federal headship theory. Yes, as physical descendants of Adam we are indeed connected to him and the physical depravity that is passed on to his descendants. Just as we have to yield our wills in compliance to Gods conditions of salvation in order to be partakers of the eternal life He offers, we have to yield our wills in agreement to the selfishness of our proclivity to sin in order to be a partaker of lost humanity. Read well this portion of the text, “For all have sinned.”

BR: WE have been "crucified with Christ" GAl 2:20 and seated with Him in the heavenly places Eph 2.

HP: We will not be unless we have voluntarily yielded our wills in obedience to the conditions of salvation Bob.

BR: WE were also identified with Adam - Romans 5 - and condemned - fallen humanity with sinful natures.

HP: We have indeed been identified with Adam, as his physical offspring. Just the same, there is no 'moral' condemnation imputed to us in the least until we yield our wills in voluntary agreement with the principles of selfishness as opposed to benevolence. Herein is our condemnation, “For all have sinned.” "All we like sheep HAVE GONE astray." Not born astray, but GONE astray.

 

[BobRyan]

Federal headship –​

Romans 6
3Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?
4Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.
…
8Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,
9knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him.
10For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.
11Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.



Gal 2
19 ""For through the Law I died to the Law, so that I might live to God.
20 ""I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

Romans 5
16 The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification.
17 For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more [b]those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ[/b].
18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.
19 For as [b]through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners[/b], even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.

This exact equation showing the federal headship principle working “toward ALL” through the ONE in each case – can not be ignored.



Eph 2
4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5 even when we were dead in our transgressions[/b], made us alive together with Christ ( by grace you have been saved),
6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

To deny this teaching you must take the past tense out and make it future
“we WILL one day be seated with Christ” we “WILL one day be raised up as Christ WAS”.

The fact that God is willing to make the identification through Christ our federal head – is what saves.

2Cor 5
21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.


Isaiah 53
6. All of us like sheep have gone astray,
Each of us has turned to his own way;
But [b]the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all
To fall on Him.
7
He was oppressed and He was afflicted,
Yet He did not open His mouth;
Like a lamb that is led to slaughter,
And like a sheep that is silent before its shearers,
So He did not open His mouth.
8
By oppression and judgment He was taken away;
And as for His generation, who considered
That He was cut off out of the land of the living
For the transgression of my people, to whom the stroke was due?[/b]

Christ pays our debt of sin – the actual torment DUE for the transgressions committed – paying for it IN our place. Substitutionary atonement. So that In Christ we have our debt paid.

Romans 7
3 So then, if while her husband is living she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress though she is joined to another man.
4 Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

BR: Christ pays our debt of sin – the actual torment DUE for the transgressions committed – paying for it IN our place. Substitutionary atonement. So that In Christ we have our debt paid.

HP: Absolutely preposterous to consider as you have stated it. Christ was one man. The penalty for sin was eternal separation from God for every man. Christ did not suffer ETERNAL SEPARATION from God even once. What He did do was to make an atonement, NOT a literal payment, that God saw as a reasonable and acceptable satisfaction made on the account of the laws demands, that He accepted in lieu of the exacting penalty of eternal separation from Himself on behalf of those that would obey the gospel message and fulfill its stated conditions of repentace and faith.

Where do you get that there is a specific amount of torment due? Not from Scripture the reader can be assured. Scripture tells us that the penalty for sin is eternal separation from God. That is separation from God without end, not some exact amount of torment due as you suggest.

 

[jne1611]

HP: Where is any such ‘sin nature’ mentioned in this verse? Death passed upon all men due to the fact that ‘all have sinned,’ not some sin nature.



HP: Sin is not physical. Sin is and only can be spiritual. Sin is a willful transgression of a known commandment of God that is condemned and judged by God as being blameworthy. To blame a man for the physical nature he is born with is tantamount to punishing a man for being born with blue eyes. Some justice that would represent.

Are you disclaiming your sin nature present with you at this time? If so your in worse shape than you could imagine.
And to deny that infants posses sin is to deny Scripture.
Psa 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.