Why do people ultimatively go to hell?

[Brother Bob]

Infants do not have sin. Where there is no Law there is no transgression. They have a body that because of Adam's sin it must die. They have to know sin before they can sin. Where is the scriptue that children sin at. Jesus picked up a little child and said "such IS the Kingdom", not going to be but "IS".

Main Entry: es·trange
1 : to remove from customary environment or associations
2 : to arouse especially mutual enmity or indifference in where there had formerly been love, affection, or friendliness :

Job, chapter 14

"1": Man that is born of a woman is of few days, and full of trouble

He does have a few days before the trouble comes. What infants you know are telling lies when they can't even talk? You have to rightly divide the word.

Eze 14:5That I may take the house of Israel in their own heart, because they are all estranged from me through their idols.

Psa 22:10I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou [art] my God from my mother's belly.

Luk 2:23(As it is written in the law of the Lord, Every male that openeth the womb shall be called holy to the Lord

No cherry pickin please!

 

[jne1611]

Infants do not have sin. Where there is no Law there is no transgression. They have a body that because of Adam's sin it must die. They have to know sin before they can sin. Where is the scriptue that children sin at. Jesus picked up a little child and said "such IS the Kingdom", not going to be but "IS".

Main Entry: es·trange
1 : to remove from customary environment or associations
2 : to arouse especially mutual enmity or indifference in where there had formerly been love, affection, or friendliness :

Job, chapter 14

"1": Man that is born of a woman is of few days, and full of trouble

He does have a few days before the trouble comes. What infants you know are telling lies when they can't even talk? You have to rightly divide the word.

Eze 14:5That I may take the house of Israel in their own heart, because they are all estranged from me through their idols.

Psa 22:10I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou [art] my God from my mother's belly.

Luk 2:23(As it is written in the law of the Lord, Every male that openeth the womb shall be called holy to the Lord

No cherry pickin please!

Psa 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
I guess you have never raised children Bob. Babies lie big time & they learn to get their way by deception early. And for someone who likes to take Scripture out of its context so well, I am surprised to hear you talk of rightly dividing the Word.:smilewinkgrin:

 

[jne1611]

Again, Psa 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

 

[Brother Bob]

Psa 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
Which one was in sin, notice the word CONCEIVE? Please don't tell me the child was sinning at conception.


I guess you have never raised children Bob. Babies lie big time & they learn to get their way by deception early. And for someone who likes to take Scripture out of its context so well, I am surprised to hear you talk of rightly dividing the Word.:smilewinkgrin:

I know children lie but babies, but there is no Law until they know what sin is? Do you punish your children for telling a lie?

 

[jne1611]

Psa 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
Which one was in sin, notice the word CONCEIVE? Please don't tell me the child was sinning at conception.


I guess you have never raised children Bob. Babies lie big time & they learn to get their way by deception early. And for someone who likes to take Scripture out of its context so well, I am surprised to hear you talk of rightly dividing the Word.:smilewinkgrin:

I know children lie but babies, but there is no Law until they know what sin is? Do you punish your children for telling a lie?

This is not the point being made at all. The question is, Is it sin? And I do understand that the Bible teaches accountability according to knowledge, but also it teaches that people perish with out law as well in Rom. 2.
And besides that God destroyed all the children in the flood as well as their parents. explain that? Could you have done that to your child Bob? What makes you think they were God's children anyway?

 

[Brother Bob]

This is not the point being made at all. The question is it sin? And I do understand that the Bible teaches accountability according to knowledge, but also it teaches that people perish with out law as well in Rom. 2.
And besides that God destroyed all the children in the flood as well as their parents. explain that? Could you have done that to your child Bob? What makes you think they were God's children anyway?

They died but how you know they were lost?

 

[jne1611]

They died but how you know they were lost?

I never said they were. I am just asking you could you have judged them worthy of destruction? The point I am making is that you just cant hold God to your standard of justice. And further more why would God have destroyed them & saved animals instead? This should show that God does not have to run by our notions of justice or fairness.

 

[Brother Bob]

Again, Psa 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

We are all born with a sinful nature because of Adam's sin and as soon as we are born we set out on our way to be sinners but where there is no Law there is no transgression for SIN is transgression of the Law.

Jam 4:17Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth [it] not, to him it is sin.

For argumentive sake being you seem to want to argue, lets say they did lie which they couldn't when they couldn't even speak but say they did, they didn't know and was not held accountable so what is your point. You have to know sin for it to be sin. Also, those without the Law that you mentioned, they did have a concious that they were a law unto themselves.

For the life of me I do not see your point. It seems to me you are being argumentive just to argue. It don't make sense what you are saying. God said I will destroy man off the face of the earth. Also, He said he would destroy this world and all that is in it at the end of time. I know what God will do but you are incinuating that God destroyed those children to be doomed forever and I asked you how you know that. I never seen where God even let any of Noah's grandchildren on the boat if he had any.

 

[Brother Bob]

Here is what one of your friends said about the matter.

Matthew Henry a Calvinist.

58:1-5 When wrong is done under the form of law, it is worse than any other; especially it is grievous to behold those who profess to be children of God, joining together against any of his people. We should thank the Lord for merciful restraints; we should be more earnest in seeking renewing grace, more watchful over ourselves, and more patient under the effects of fallen nature in others. The corruption of their nature was the root of bitterness. We may see in children the wickedness of the world beginning. They go astray from God and their duty as soon as possibly they can. And how soon will little children tell lies! It is our duty to take pains to teach them, and above all, earnestly to pray for converting grace to make our children new creatures. Though the poison be within, much of it may be kept from breaking forth to injure others. When the Saviour's words are duly regarded, the serpent becomes harmless. But those who refuse to hear heavenly wisdom, must perish miserably, for ever.

 

[jne1611]

We are all born with a sinful nature because of Adam's sin and as soon as we are born we set out on our way to be sinners but where there is no Law there is no transgression for SIN is transgression of the Law.

Jam 4:17Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth [it] not, to him it is sin.

For argumentive sake being you seem to want to argue, lets say they did lie which they couldn't when they couldn't even speak but say they did, they didn't know and was not held accountable so what is your point. You have to know sin for it to be sin. Also, those without the Law that you mentioned, they did have a concious that they were a law unto themselves.

For the life of me I do not see your point. It seems to me you are being argumentive just to argue. It don't make sense what you are saying. God said I will destroy man off the face of the earth. Also, He said he would destroy this world and all that is in it at the end of time. I know what God will do but you are incinuating that God destroyed those children to be doomed forever and I asked you how you know that. I never seen where God even let any of Noah's grandchildren on the boat if he had any.

Bro. Bob you obviously have not been following this argument. HP does not believe that children are born sinners. Or as you say with a sinful nature. Our conversation has steered way off course. And I just told you that I did not say they were lost! I don't know whether they went to hell or not, but one thing you must face is that God sure thought they were as worthy of destruction as their parents! If not why were they not on board instead of a bunch of animals?

 

[Brother Bob]

Ask God........... I am not denying it happened.

I don't believe they are sinners either for they can't be without knowing what sin is.

They are born with a nature because of Adam that they have to die. Some call it a sinful nature, I guess it is they are born with the appointment of death already upon them and outwardly they begin to perish the day they are born.

 

[jne1611]

Ask God...........

I don't believe they are sinners either for they can't be without knowing what sin is.

They are born with a nature because of Adam that they have to die. Some call it a sinful nature, I guess it is they are born with the appointment of death already upon them and outwardly they begin to perish the day they are born.

Well your just as confused if not worse than he is. What is a sinful nature you speak of then? That's a contradiction in itself!

 

[Brother Bob]

We have been posting for some time now and all you have done is make insulting remarks and to no gain. We haven't accomplished not one thing. I don't even know what your point is. First you say they are little liars and now you say you don't know what sinful nature is and you say that I am more confused than HP. All you are doing is being quarrelsome for no reason. I think its called an old Calvinist tatic Slash and Burn.

You never did answer the question if you punish your children for lying?

Where there is not Wisdom then all is Vainty.

 

[jne1611]

We have been posting for some time now and all you have done is make insulting remarks and to no gain. We haven't accomplished not one thing. I don't even know what your point is. First you say they are little liars and now you say you don't know what sinful nature is and you say that I am more confused than HP. All you are doing is being quarrelsome for no reason. I think its called an old Calvinist tatic Slash and Burn.

Where there is not Wisdom then all is Vainty.

The Bible says their liars, so you can take the rest up with God. Your the one who used the term "sinful nature" and applied it to infants, then turned around and said you don't believe their sinners! So, If you can't explain your own comments, don't look for me to.
This is what you said. "We are all born with a sinful nature because of Adam's sin and as soon as we are born we set out on our way to be sinners but where there is no Law there is no transgression for SIN is transgression of the Law."
I asked you if they are not sinners then what is a sinful nature?

 

[jne1611]

We have been posting for some time now and all you have done is make insulting remarks and to no gain. We haven't accomplished not one thing. I don't even know what your point is. First you say they are little liars and now you say you don't know what sinful nature is and you say that I am more confused than HP. All you are doing is being quarrelsome for no reason. I think its called an old Calvinist tatic Slash and Burn.

You never did answer the question if you punish your children for lying?

Where there is not Wisdom then all is Vainty.

Sure. What is your point?

 

[Brother Bob]

Did you punish them when they were first born? Did you grab them out of your wife's arms and punish them and if not then you speak with a forked tongue.

jne;
The Bible says their liars, so you can take the rest up with God.

 

[jne1611]

Did you punish them when they were first born? Did you grab them out of your wife's arms and punish them and if not then you speak with a forked tongue.

A forked tongue? Why there you go again Bob, doing what Armenians do best. Putting God on a human level! I did not take them to the bath tub and drown them like God in the flood either. Does that make me better than God?

 

[Brother Bob]

A summary of what has been said between you and me:

Bob; You never did answer the question if you punish your children for lying?


jne; Sure. What is your point?
jne; The Bible says their liars,


Did you punish them when they were first born? Did you grab them out of your wife's arms and punish them and if not then you speak with a forked tongue.

You say you know they are little liars and you punish you children for lying but you didn’t punish the babies even though you say they too are liars. You even say the Bible calls them liars, and then when caught between a rock and a hard place what do you say?

jne; A forked tongue? Why there you go again Bob, doing what Armenians do best. Putting God on a human level! I did not take them to the bath tub and drown them like God in the flood either. Does that make me better than God?

Where there is no Wisdom, all is Vanity. :tonofbricks:

 

[jne1611]

A summary of what has been said between you and me:

Bob; You never did answer the question if you punish your children for lying?


jne; Sure. What is your point?
jne; The Bible says their liars,


Did you punish them when they were first born? Did you grab them out of your wife's arms and punish them and if not then you speak with a forked tongue.

You say you know they are little liars and you punish you children for lying but you didn’t punish the babies even though you say they too are liars. You even say the Bible calls them liars, and then when caught between a rock and a hard place what do you say?

jne; A forked tongue? Why there you go again Bob, doing what Armenians do best. Putting God on a human level! I did not take them to the bath tub and drown them like God in the flood either. Does that make me better than God?

Where there is no Wisdom, all is Vanity. :tonofbricks:

I'll let you continue to be pleased that all of that meant something.:laugh: I mean, what more can you say to a man that wants God to act as we do. You would first have to presuppose that all infants are God's children. We know this is not true from the case of Esau. But any way I'll let you put God on our level. You can take that up with Him. That is usually where you and I end up at any way. If God don't do like we would, that's just not fair!:tear:

 

[Brother Bob]

Deuteronomy, chapter 1
39: Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.

And in closing