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Why do protestant groups insist on saving people that don’t need saving…?
- Thread starter Jacob Dahlen
- Start date
And you said...
Congratulations Matt.
You have just declared to the whole world that the testimony of Almighty God Himself, in His scriptures, is not *trustworthy* enough to satisfy you.</font>[/QUOTE]Er...no. Where have I said that? I have merely pointed out the blatantly obvious - that the Bible cannot be used as a contemporary primary source document to demonstrate the existence of Christian groups outside of the Catholic-Orthodox Church between the years 313 and 1160. How on earth can you construe that as doubting the 'testimony of Almighty God Himself in His Scriptures'? Given that the Scriptures are silent on the issue - unless of course you can locate a chapter and verse saying: "in the 12th century there shall arise a true church called the Pure Ones (Cathari) who shall be opposed to the Apostate Church" or something akin to that - I fail to see their relevance to the issue of whether or not these groups were Christian.
No. I'm just asking you to produce the evidence for your claims. If that is 'wasting your time', then I strongly suspect that that is a smokescreen for the fact that you have no such evidence.
I'm not defending the Catholic Church - as I've said I'm not a Catholic - but I am standing up for truth supported by the proper evidence. Why are you 'embarassing yourself publicly' by repeating assertions for which you have produced not one jot or scintilla of contemporary evidence? Why do you keep doing it?
Concerning the OP:
I assume every one is unsaved: Baptist, Catholic, Lutheran, AOG--everyone--until I have heard a clear testimony of their salvation. Even those who claim to be IFB are not necessarily saved. A Christian doesn't have religion. He has a relationship. Do you have a relationship with Jesus Christ? Does His Spirit bear witness with your spirit that you are a child of God?
DHK
I assume every one is unsaved: Baptist, Catholic, Lutheran, AOG--everyone--until I have heard a clear testimony of their salvation. Even those who claim to be IFB are not necessarily saved. A Christian doesn't have religion. He has a relationship. Do you have a relationship with Jesus Christ? Does His Spirit bear witness with your spirit that you are a child of God?
DHK
Matt, Matt, Matt.
Bless your heart, I know you mean well.
Grace and peace,
Mike </font>[/QUOTE]OK, OK, I get the message at long last: no evidence. Well, as they say in the game shows, "bad luck but thanks for playing, you've been a marvellous contestant; see you all next week when we'll be having some folks trying to prove that black is white."
BTW, Happy Easter everyone!
The Galatian
Active Member
For some people, it's not about salvation, it's about power.
Otherwise, they would expend their energy on those not saved, instead of trying to get people to switch denominations.
Otherwise, they would expend their energy on those not saved, instead of trying to get people to switch denominations.
JFox1,
1) We are not to focus our attention on those lost people who are not a part of a denomination.
We are to be concerned with lost people, period. Its irrelavent whether they are in a denomination or not.
In some *supposedly* christian "denominations" the persentage of saved people is surely very very miniscule.
2) The same scriptures of God that teach us to preach the gospel also teach us to "contend earnestly" as to the truth of the scriptures.
Both are needed and good.
Mike
1) We are not to focus our attention on those lost people who are not a part of a denomination.
We are to be concerned with lost people, period. Its irrelavent whether they are in a denomination or not.
In some *supposedly* christian "denominations" the persentage of saved people is surely very very miniscule.
2) The same scriptures of God that teach us to preach the gospel also teach us to "contend earnestly" as to the truth of the scriptures.
Both are needed and good.
Mike
If they are truly saved, they don't need any further salvation. However, many people confess that they are saved, while they are not actually. Therefore we need to verify and must help them to accept the Gospel.
This is the teachings in 2 Cor 13:5 and Matt 7:13-23
Read John 8:30-31 and 8:59, where you will find that the people who confessed they believe in Jesus tried to kill Jesus at the end.
This is the teachings in 2 Cor 13:5 and Matt 7:13-23
Read John 8:30-31 and 8:59, where you will find that the people who confessed they believe in Jesus tried to kill Jesus at the end.
He didn't. Salvation, both in the Old and the New Testament has always been by faith.
John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
--His own (nation) did not believe him. They were not believers. They were not saved just because they were Jews. Salvation is by faith.
BUT
as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: (John 1:12)
DHK,
I almost misunderstood what Claudia mentioned.
What she meant is this:
Even Jesus tried to preached the Gospel to so-called God's People ( Jews) at that time. At that time, Jews were like churchmen today, but they need to verify their faith, and therefore He preached and some accepted but many rejected Gospel.
And therefore, even today we have to preach the Gospel to the nominal Christians and then verify the faith indeed as there are so many misunderstanding churchmen today, so that they may be truly born again by Holy Spirit.
I almost misunderstood what Claudia mentioned.
What she meant is this:
Even Jesus tried to preached the Gospel to so-called God's People ( Jews) at that time. At that time, Jews were like churchmen today, but they need to verify their faith, and therefore He preached and some accepted but many rejected Gospel.
And therefore, even today we have to preach the Gospel to the nominal Christians and then verify the faith indeed as there are so many misunderstanding churchmen today, so that they may be truly born again by Holy Spirit.
You just keep telling yourself that.
But the truth stands no matter how long that Ostrich keeps its head stuck in that hole.
Mike </font>[/QUOTE]Mike, it's very simple - please answer this question, which requires a yes or a no answer: do you have any documentation dating from the period 313-1160 which demonstrates that there were Christian or evangelical groups outside of the Catholic and Orthodox Churches, yes or no?
I remember Martyr by Johne Foxe covered this period as well even though the contents are only a little.
Also, you can find much more in this Pilgrim Church by E.H. Broadbent.
He was a German writer who collected the vast amount of records throughout Europe, Middle East, Asia. It covers up to 1930 as he passed away around 1945.
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/thailand/PC-B-001.HTM
Matt, if you check carefully the history of the past by reading these books, you can realize that RC's problems were not built in a day, and that RC accumulated all the paganism throughout the centuries and they had the problem since the start.
However, what I admit is that RC's problems were rather milder before 11-12 century AD, before Crusade 1095 AD ( not 1160 AD)than thereafter. But on the other hand, the older the history of the events are, the fewer the evidences remain in the human hands.
The confirmation of the past history requires a lot of effort and the individuals cannot afford to verify all the things and moreover, even though we can verify them, often opponents would not accept them. As many German Holocaust denials are made in that way and Turkish Denials against Armenian Genocide are made in that way as well, Roman Catholics deny and deny, but God has the full record of the history and the Holy Spirit in our heart confirms it.
Please read the above site which list the brief summary quite well.
Thanks, but material written many centuries later is not what I'm asking for; I could write a book claiming that early Baptists were fruicakes and believed the moon was made of cheese but it fortunately would carry little weight because I don't live at the time the early Baptists were around.
Real Baptists are not Protestants.
Now what?
Selah,
Bro. James
Now what?
Selah,
Bro. James
Yes they are.
Now what?
I believe the burden of proof lies with the affirmative in this question. Baptistic practioners were in abundance long before Luther, Calvin, etal, were born; this in spite of millions of them having been martyred.
These groups thought they may have a respite with the so-called Reformation--they were disappointed.
Selah,
Bro. James
These groups thought they may have a respite with the so-called Reformation--they were disappointed.
Selah,
Bro. James