Why do protestant groups insist on saving people that don’t need saving…?

[Eliyahu]

If any one believes that she or he would go to the Purgatory after death, then such person need the true Salvation because he or she doesn't believe that the Blood and Death of Jesus Christ paid enough once for all for the believers to go to the heaven directly.
Such person is much more miserable than the Robber at the Cross who went to the Paradise directly.

The Erasmus book (TR) was (maybe is still) on the list of the books forbidden by Roman Catholic (
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/indexlibrorum.html
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03519d.htm
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07721a.htm)
Erasmus was a Catholic, but his spiritual fellowship was with the Reformers and with brethren.

The True churches have existed outside Roman Catholic, apart from Greek Orthodox, throughout the history even if their names may have varied from time to time, and they have the fellowship extended even to Armmenia, and from Armenia they were connected even to China and Mongolia.
In Europe they were sometimes called Montanists, Donatists, Cathari, Nestorian, Heugnots, Albigenes, Waldenese, Bohemian Brethren, Moravian Brehtren. I don't mean that they were perfect, their doctrines were not all the time correct either. But they were mainly formed of Born again believers.
It is quite remarkable that Martin Luther was born again after he heard about the Gospel from Staupitz who recommended him to read the books by Tauler.

Calvin instructed or agreed to kill 58 people while he was in Geneve. If he had not had such authority, Servetus would have not begged him for his life. I disagree with Servetus but the method of what Calvin did was not conforming to the bible teaching. Some of them were ( at least 2) were true believers.

Read this ( His ash cries out against Calvin !)
http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/ashes.htm

Both Calvin and Servetus are gone, but they wait for the judgment by the Lord.

When we talk about the concept of Baptists, the narrow meaning may be limited to the denomination, but it embraces the wide range of true believers like Moravian brethren or Mennonites, Bohemian Brethren etc., because they all performed the Baptism according to the Bible.

Again, if anyone doesn't have the true salvation, that person need the Gospel and someone has to preach it. There is no reason for anyone to refuse the Gospel just because the person was already saved. I enjoy hearing the Gospel even though I was saved already, I enjoy hearing the Gospel thousand times again and again. Often I notice some people who are not saved yet insist that they were saved already, in order to refuse the Gospel, which is great pity to that person.

 

[Eliyahu]

Originally posted by tragic_pizza:
Holy Moses.

Are you all that in love with the Baptist sect?

Honestly, people, learn some history. Oh, and try and read the Bible on occasion, too... you know, the stuff about "if a man says "I love God' and hates his brother, he is a liar." That kind of stuff.

Yeesh.

Yes, that is exactly what Inquisitors and Roman Catholic did.

 

[tragic_pizza]

Originally posted by Eliyahu:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by tragic_pizza:
Holy Moses.

Are you all that in love with the Baptist sect?

Honestly, people, learn some history. Oh, and try and read the Bible on occasion, too... you know, the stuff about "if a man says "I love God' and hates his brother, he is a liar." That kind of stuff.

Yeesh.

Yes, that is exactly what Inquisitors and Roman Catholic did. </font>[/QUOTE]OK, I see. That makes calling Christian brothers and sisters "harlots" OK, then. That makes openly hating a brother and sister in Christ, simply because they go to a different Christian church than do you, absolutely permissable.

Thanks for clearing up that obvious exception to the Rule of Christ for me. I'll begin properly hating everyone different than me now, so I can be just like you.

 

[Eliyahu]

Problem is that many people don't distinguish between the Discernment of Doctrines according to Bible and Personal Attack.
Someone should be able to understand who is Harlot of Babylon. Whether anyone is brother or sister should be discerned by their belief and fruits. We don't have to be cheated by many fake Christians who are mentioned in Mt 7.

 

[Scott J]

I am willing to call those who have been saved by grace through faith according to the scriptures brother or sister. The beliefs one holds will either bear testimony to this conversion or against it.

I cannot call one a brother or sister who openly and knowingly rejects a clear teaching of scripture.

There have always been true believers. Attempts to produce "Baptist successionism(sp?)" are more than likely in vain. We simply need to follow our own distinctive and trust the scriptures rather than trying to gather groups through history and label them Baptists... no matter what they believed. His church has not failed from the earth... in spite of the efforts of many organizations to include at times the RCC and various protestant denominations.

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by tragic_pizza:
I'll begin properly hating everyone different than me now, ...

It seems you already succeeded without knowing it.

 

[Eliyahu]

Originally posted by tragic_pizza:
you know, the stuff about "if a man says "I love God' and hates his brother, he is a liar." That kind of stuff. .

**************

I'll begin properly hating everyone different than me now, so I can be just like you
[/QB]

This Contrast shows how you are !

 

[Matt Black]

Originally posted by Bro. James Reed:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Matt Black:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by dcorbett:
Baptists are not Protestants, by the way. We were never part of the mother harlot church, the one in Rome.

The first General Baptist congregations were set up in the early 1600s, the first Particular Baptists in the 1640s. Both came out of the Puritan-separatist movement within the Church of England and are therefore rightly regarded as Protestant.

Ana-Baptists were tortured, burned, drowned, and their blood was shed over and over for refusing to conform to the catholic and reformed churches, yes, even the church of england. Bibles were chained to the pulpits in those other churches so the common man could not find the truth about saving GRACE, but the Ana Baptists and Mennonites and the Brethren mamaged to keep authentic copies of the Textus Receptus hidden so that the papists and so called "reformers" couldn't eliminate the real Bible. Martin Luther and Calvin killed thousands of Baptists, did you know that?

No, I didn't - because it's not true. Since Baptists did not exist prior to the 1600s (see above) and Luther died in 1546 and Calvin in 1564, I fail to see how it could possibly be true. </font>[/QUOTE]If such is the case, then there was a time when the gates of hell did prevail against God's true church.

I reject that notion.

</font>[/QUOTE]So do I. I don't have a problem that God preserved His Church throughout the ages, His Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church (and I don't mean Roman Catholic by that statement necessarily...)

 

[Matt Black]

Originally posted by nate:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> dcorbett
Bibles were chained to the pulpits in those other churches so the common man could not find the truth about saving GRACE,

As an Anglican I abhor your absolute stupidity concerning the chaining of Bibles to the pulpits. Please post on things you actually understand and have an accurate idea on. Bibles were chained to the pulpits so they would not be stolen. Church members could go and read them anytime they desired.

</font>[/QUOTE]Agreed completely with the rest of your post but just highlighted this bit: it's true even today as it was then that in some English parish churches, the ornate Lectionary Bibles are chained to the pulpit for the same reason - to stop people nicking them. It's a measure of how much the congregation treasures their 'Church Bible' that they do this. Of course there are also 'common or garden' Bibles (usually NIV) stacked at the back of the church or in the pews to which any one is free to help themselves nowadays.

 

[nate]

I apologize for the comment about stupidity it was uncalled for. But please folks stick to facts and truth lying about the Anglican Church chaining Bibles to the pulpit to keep people from getting saved is indeed hogwash. So lets make sure we know our history before we make false even slanderous comments about other Christians or Church groups. Good post Matt thanks for the extra information.
In Christ,
Nate

 

[tragic_pizza]

Originally posted by Eliyahu:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by tragic_pizza:
you know, the stuff about "if a man says "I love God' and hates his brother, he is a liar." That kind of stuff. .

**************

I'll begin properly hating everyone different than me now, so I can be just like you

This Contrast shows how you are ! [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]Do you even understand the concept of "sarcasm?"

 

[tragic_pizza]

Originally posted by Scott J:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by tragic_pizza:
I'll begin properly hating everyone different than me now, ...

It seems you already succeeded without knowing it. </font>[/QUOTE]OK, I confess that I have a problem with people who spend all their time discussing how "right" they all are and how everyone else who doesn't think, act, and feel the way they do is going to Hell.

I confess to getting sick of hearing how nonChristians' general introduction to evangelical Christianity is "Don't you know you;re going to Hell?"

I confess to being a bit tired of people who preach the New Testament but don't live it.

So, yeah. Call me guilty.

 

[Bro. James Reed]

Originally posted by tragic_pizza:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Scott J:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by tragic_pizza:
I'll begin properly hating everyone different than me now, ...

It seems you already succeeded without knowing it. </font>[/QUOTE]OK, I confess that I have a problem with people who spend all their time discussing how "right" they all are and how everyone else who doesn't think, act, and feel the way they do is going to Hell.

I confess to getting sick of hearing how nonChristians' general introduction to evangelical Christianity is "Don't you know you;re going to Hell?"

I confess to being a bit tired of people who preach the New Testament but don't live it.

So, yeah. Call me guilty. </font>[/QUOTE]On this, I agree with you tp.

I hope that you do not think that I am one of those people to whom you are referring.

I think there are too many people today "saving" people by scaring them to death. Too many people and denominations out there are telling people, "if you don't believe what I'm gonna tell you, then you are gonna go to hell." If I thought that was the case, I'd be scared to death NOT to believe what they were telling me.

Praise be to God that such is not the case and that Jesus even died for our sin of unbelief.

It is indeed my earnest prayer that all of God's children would come to know the full, biblical truth about Him and His love for us, but the scales must first be removed from their eyes. Only God has that ability.

I pray for all those who worship Him ignorantly, although they do worship Him as they believe they ought.

Salvation is like medicine. It has some side effects for some people, in this case good ones like truth and knowledge. Yet, not all people will get those side effects, though they all will get over the illness. Side effects, in salvation, are a wonderful thing.

 

[BobRyan]

When the Jewish Christians of the NT age began preaching to the saved people of God - that were Bible believing Jews - not Christians -- where they in "error" to share "MORE TRUTH" with those that ALREADY HAD the truth of Abraham Isaac and Jacob???

Was John the baptizer saved pre-cross, Anna? Simon? Elijah, Enoch? David? Samuel? Those in Heb 11??

If they were saved and the Jews of Christ day (like Timothy) were saved under that one Gospel WHY should anyone preach to THEM just because Christians had MORE truth contained in the life death and resurrection of the predicted Messiah that all believed in?

Christ IS the way the truth and the life - WHY would anyone in the RCC who actually loves the TRUTH -- hate the idea of learning more Truth sent by the "one" who IS the WAY the TRUTH and the Life?

Doesn't the question raise the issue of what it means to love the Truth?

If the "goal" is to cling to man-made tradition - then fine - no evangelism between groups!

In Christ,

Bob

 

[D28guy]

Matt Black said...

"No, I didn't - because it's not true. Since Baptists did not exist prior to the 1600s (see above) and Luther died in 1546 and Calvin in 1564, I fail to see how it could possibly be true."

And James Reed said...

" If such is the case, then there was a time when the gates of hell did prevail against God's true church.

I reject that notion.

The true Church of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ has always been here, however, in times past, under different names than Baptist.

You better believe it. Common sense would dictate such. The thought that God would be without a witness for over 1000 years and then we christians just magically reappear again? Its ludicrous.

And Gods faithful witnesses through the ages have been documented of course. Some came out of Catholicism in response to the Spirit calling, and some never where a part of Rome, knowing better. (even if it meant the Catholic torture chambers or its firey pole)

Praise God! He has never been without his faithful witnesses for 2000 years now.

Grace and peace,

Mike

 

[Matt Black]

Mike, I'm calling you on this thread just like the one on Catholicism - produce your evidence or retract your assertions.

 

[Claudia_T]

haven been following this thread but if the question is should we try to get Christians in other denominations away from their biblical errors... well

1Tm:4:1: Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;


It all depends, do you think you should care about if someone is lost or not?

it just seems like an obvious answer to me.

OF COURSE you should try to "save" christians who are deceived.

 

[Eliyahu]

Returning to the OP, we should verify and confirm as long as available, whether someone is really saved or not because many people are misled as we read Mt 7. If they refuse the questions, that's absolutely their responsibility.

 

[Kamoroso]

Rev 18:1-24
CHAPTER 18

1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory.
2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.
6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.
7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.
8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.
9 And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,
10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.
11 And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:
12 The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble,
13 And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men.
14 And the fruits that thy soul lusted after are departed from thee, and all things which were dainty and goodly are departed from thee, and thou shalt find them no more at all.
15 The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her, shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment, weeping and wailing,
16 And saying, Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls!
17 For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off,
18 And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city!
19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.
20 Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.
21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.
22 And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee;
23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.
24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

God's judgment is soon to be poured out upon this world. All must choose. We will either come out of Babylon, or end up in her ranks. Those who choose to believe a lie over the truth, will end up within the ranks of Babylon.

The Church of Rome is the MOTHER OF HARLOTS, BABYLON THE GREAT. She will lead the world in rebellion against God. All churches which choose to beleive and teach a lie, are her daughters. She will gather them together, as she has already begun to do, to prepare for the final battle. COME OUT OF HER MY PEOPLE, THAT YE RECEIVE NOT OF HER PLAGUES.

Bye for now. Y. b. in C. Keith

 

[Eliyahu]

The Great Harlot is strengthening herself a lot and is working much harder than the true believers are doing for the Lord, not only by Organic Growth but also by Inorganic Growth which means Merger & Acquisition and therefore works hard to gain the support from Muslims and from Buddhists. Idolatery is the same with Buddhism and Fatima is a good bridge for Muslims because Fatima was the name of Mohammad's daughter.

However, one thing which I am hopeful about is that Rev tells us Hundreds of millions of believers are coming out of the Great Tribulation, and eventually this battle is fore-notified as the Victory of the True Believers in Christ. This is a good comfort and we should follow our Great General, who loved us so much to give us Himself for us by dying at the Cross, our Lord Jesus Christ.