Why do some Reformed/Calvinist "pastors" advocate unbiblical evangelism?

[evangelist6589]

So does this one. See that little "[+"]" button between "

" and "[Quick]"? That's the multiquote button. Click on it in all the posts you want to reply to, then open a "PostReply" box and they all show up in in it.

Thank you for this!!!!!!

 

[evangelist6589]

So does this one. See that little "[+"]" button between "

" and "[Quick]"? That's the multiquote button. Click on it in all the posts you want to reply to, then open a "PostReply" box and they all show up in in it.

He was not saying you were sarcastic.

You want to lead folks to the Lord? Start a bus ministry at your church. Go out in the neighborhoods around your church and pick up kids and bring them to church every Sunday and back home again.

I've got a buddy named Bill. He is not the type that would stand in the street and yell at folks, but he has been driving the bus at our church for over 20 years. I bet many hundreds of kids have accepted Jesus as their Savior because of Bill. He doesn't brag or say one word about it, but every Sunday, rain or shine, or bitter cold, he gets up early and starts that bus, and picks up kids all over our town.

Each is called to a different ministry. I remember helping out doing this type of thing in SC at BJU. While no question a way to soften the heart to the gospel, someone not telling one of SIN and preaching repentance from sin is not doing evangelism.

 

[evangelist6589]

Oops. Wrong thread. Sorry.

Using multiquote and then editing my responses by coping the "

" code appropriate to segment to which I want to reply.

Test to see if it works

 

[Reformed]

Kent Hughes in a book advocates friendship evangelism. Erwin Lutzer (whom leans Reformed) also advocates friendship evangelism in a book, as well as the sinners prayer. Also DA Carson in a certain book on evangelism writes to the intellect and thinks one can persuade others by that instead of using the LAW to convict the conscience.

There are just a few I can think of the top of my head but over the years I have run into many more.

You have not provided one quote or convincing proof of your assertion. Just mentioning names does not make something so.

 

[Winman]

Each is called to a different ministry. I remember helping out doing this type of thing in SC at BJU. While no question a way to soften the heart to the gospel, someone not telling one of SIN and preaching repentance from sin is not doing evangelism.

So, you would rather stand in the street and yell at folks, even if NOBODY ever gets saved this way, than pick up kids in the neighborhoods in your town and see HUNDREDS of them accept Christ?

 

[evangelist6589]

You have not provided one quote or convincing proof of your assertion. Just mentioning names does not make something so.

I can't dig up the books. But do you have the following books?

Disciplines of a Godly Man?
Life Changing Bible Verses you should know?

 

[evangelist6589]

So, you would rather stand in the street and yell at folks, even if NOBODY ever gets saved this way, than pick up kids in the neighborhoods in your town and see HUNDREDS of them accept Christ?

I do not look to results I look to the scripture. God brings forth his elect and graciously uses me to do so. Bus ministries have their place as well as Street evangelism. At BJU each was called to a different ministry and mine was street evangelism.

 

[Winman]

I do not look to results I look to the scripture. God brings forth his elect and graciously uses me to do so. Bus ministries have their place as well as Street evangelism. At BJU each was called to a different ministry and mine was street evangelism.

It's a good thing you don't care about results.

 

[Reformed]

I can't dig up the books. But do you have the following books?

Disciplines of a Godly Man?
Life Changing Bible Verses you should know?

You started the thread. You cited the names of individuals. It is your job to quote them in context. Otherwise you are making an unsubstantiated opinion.

 

[JonC]

I am reading the 350 page book The Way of the Master and concluding more and more that this is the way Jesus did evangelism. True 1 of 10 people whom come to faith via other methods are saved an I am one example but we cannot point to the results must point to the scriptures when we do our evangelism.

Perhaps you should take a break from The Way of the Master and read Scripture apart from that lens. There is nothing wrong with the book or the method, in my estimation…but there is something wrong with placing such emphasis on its author and the method prescribed. Jesus did not always use “the Law” when dealing with people and sin. For example, with the Samarian woman He began by presenting the concept of “living water” and “eternal life.” As the conversation developed he identified Himself as the Messiah. But the sin in her life was something that she was apparently fully aware. Thisnumber is right, the witness of the woman was “friendship evangelism,” but so was the process in which Jesus Himself approached the woman. Paul, at Thessalonica, is presented in reasoning about the death and resurrection of Christ rather than focusing on the Law and sin. At the Areopagus, Paul is not seen trying to place the men of Athens under the Law. Instead he reasons with them within the context of their understanding (he even quotes Aratus) and explains repentance and judgment - but…interestingly enough, without convicting them “under the Law.”

I am interested in how you determine that only 1 of 10 people who come to faith via other methods are saved. This seems to be an absurd and unverifiable statement (and actually, contrary to the Word of God - salvation is not dependent upon method, even if MacArthur himself advocates a particular method).

 

[Don]

I have never led anyone to the Lord this way. I have hungered many whom have asked questions, but it is God that convicts one of sin. My job is simply to plant the seed of the gospel into as many ears as possible by tracts and open air preaching. I will let God bring about conviction. However as Paul washer has encouraged me in his book, I will also give people a invitation to repent.

So what do you think of Philip's method of working with the Ethiopian?

 

[quantumfaith]

Perhaps you should take a break from The Way of the Master and read Scripture apart from that lens. There is nothing wrong with the book or the method, in my estimation…but there is something wrong with placing such emphasis on its author and the method prescribed. Jesus did not always use “the Law” when dealing with people and sin. For example, with the Samarian woman He began by presenting the concept of “living water” and “eternal life.” As the conversation developed he identified Himself as the Messiah. But the sin in her life was something that she was apparently fully aware. Thisnumber is right, the witness of the woman was “friendship evangelism,” but so was the process in which Jesus Himself approached the woman. Paul, at Thessalonica, is presented in reasoning about the death and resurrection of Christ rather than focusing on the Law and sin. At the Areopagus, Paul is not seen trying to place the men of Athens under the Law. Instead he reasons with them within the context of their understanding (he even quotes Aratus) and explains repentance and judgment - but…interestingly enough, without convicting them “under the Law.”

I am interested in how you determine that only 1 of 10 people who come to faith via other methods are saved. This seems to be an absurd and unverifiable statement (and actually, contrary to the Word of God - salvation is not dependent upon method, even if MacArthur himself advocates a particular method).

Wise advise. Hope he considers it.

 

[Winman]

So what do you think of Philip's method of working with the Ethiopian?

Luk 10:38 Now it came to pass, as they went, that he entered into a certain village: and a certain woman named Martha received him into her house.
39 And she had a sister called Mary, which also sat at Jesus' feet, and heard his word.
40 But Martha was cumbered about much serving, and came to him, and said, Lord, dost thou not care that my sister hath left me to serve alone? bid her therefore that she help me.
41 And Jesus answered and said unto her, Martha, Martha, thou art careful and troubled about many things:
42 But one thing is needful: and Mary hath chosen that good part, which shall not be taken away from her.

Actually, you don't see Jesus standing in the street yelling a people in the scriptures. Jesus entered into people's homes and taught from there.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

I doubt you can show me that everyone who has prayed for salvation in a service ending like that remains unsaved.

I doubt anybody can show you anything.

Uh ... you might try looking right above that specific comment in my post.

Uh, you might try posting some verses that have something to do with your claim that "friendship evangelism" is Biblical.

 

[quantumfaith]

Kindly point out where I said differently? What I said -- read along with me now ... was this:So no need to rant. But there are other methods of doing much the same.I've read his book. He makes that point, true, but he offers no proof it is the so-called "Arminian teachings" or the "easy believism" that is responsible. There are as many unsaved church goers among the New Calvinists as there are among any other niche doctrinal follower.

[sarcasm]
Thanks. You know how hard it is for those of us with Masters degrees working on doctorates to follow big words.
[/sarcasm]I know exactly what it is. That is what it is.I doubt you can show me that everyone who has prayed for salvation in a service ending like that remains unsaved. Quite the contrary. I'd say there are an equal number of "failures" in any other approach to evangelistic preaching. There's no way to know, and to pick on one aspect while apparently assuming the others are without fault is ludicrous.Uh ... you might try looking right above that specific comment in my post.Don't look now, but that's exactly how Billy Sunday approached the gutter drunk. Care to tell me how he had no effect?

:thumbs::thumbs:

 

[Winman]

I doubt anybody can show you anything.

Uh, you might try posting some verses that have something to do with your claim that "friendship evangelism" is Biblical.

Jhn 1:40 One of the two which heard John speak, and followed him, was Andrew, Simon Peter's brother.
41 He first findeth his own brother Simon, and saith unto him, We have found the Messias, which is, being interpreted, the Christ.
42 And he brought him to Jesus. And when Jesus beheld him, he said, Thou art Simon the son of Jona: thou shalt be called Cephas, which is by interpretation, A stone.
43 The day following Jesus would go forth into Galilee, and findeth Philip, and saith unto him, Follow me.
44 Now Philip was of Bethsaida, the city of Andrew and Peter.
45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.

Andrew didn't preach, but he found his brother Simon (Peter) and brought him to Jesus. Philip also found his friend Nathanael and brought him to Jesus.

 

[preachinjesus]

I am reading the 350 page book The Way of the Master and concluding more and more that this is the way Jesus did evangelism. True 1 of 10 people whom come to faith via other methods are saved an I am one example but we cannot point to the results must point to the scriptures when we do our evangelism.

Well first of all, The Way of the Master twists Scripture to make their point. They selectively quote and apply in specious (and spurious) ways. So you're not winning this argument with "well Ray Comfort says..." Though I'm appreciative of good efforts to spread the Gospel, and though I am wary of Comfort, I happily partner with folks who use "Way of the Master" but refuse to bow to their legalism. There isn't ONE and only one BIBLICAL method of evangelism.

I'm not spending a lot of time here but I'll toss out these examples and move along:

- Just quoting from the OT isn't inherently quoting "the Law"...especially for the first century Jew. To quote "the Law" meant you would likely refer to the Pentateuch and then Mishnah and Talmud. I don't see Comfort pointing out either of those in his text.

- Secondly, the greatest sermon given (Matthew 5-8) is entirely devoid of direct OT citations. It calls people to a new ethic and new Kingdom yet doesn't quote from "the Law" at all.

- Thirdly, notice Paul's two examples of apologetic methodology (and ultimately evangelistic call) in Acts 17 and Acts 22. In Acts 17, Paul goes to a less than public place and uses their cultural signs to proclaim the Gospel. This includes quoting from a secular poem. Yet does not directly quote from OT Scripture. In Acts 22 he never quotes the OT and preaches among Jews not on a street corner.

- Fourth, Jesus' method of "evangelism" was to call others to Himself and to follow Him while casting off their worldly ideals.

- When, in Acts, it refers to Paul (or anyone else) referencing the "Law and the Prophets" that is Luke's way of saying the Old Testament. Since it was their only testament, and thus not old yet, it isn't inherently the Law.

- I don't have to work this out, but the nature of apostolic evangelization in the first century wouldn't have been on street corners and in open air proclamations like you're used to or think that is the only method. Frankly, given the persecution ongoing in the first century most evangelistic relationships were done person-to-person by inviting them into a house church or community. The exposure to the kerygma, the early preaching of Christ, was done personally more than publicly. We look to Paul's letters about this and think of 2 Corinthians 6:13; Ephesians 4:1-3; 1 Timothy 4:16; etc.

- Notice Acts 18:26, after Apollos had attempted to speak about Jesus he was taken into a home (not on a street corner) to be refined.

- Philip and the Ethiopian Eunuch from Acts 8:26-40 was not public proclamation but personal connection. BTW, just to point out, given Luke's understanding of the Law and the Prophets, the texts used to present the Gospel to the Ethiopian Eunuch are from the Prophets and not the Law.

- Also, in looking at Jesus' specific way of spreading the message about His own messianic mission, the Gospels seem to be taken with the reality that he did so by performing miracles, casting out demons, and healing people. I'd point to Matthew 4:23-25 and Mark 1:21-39 specifically.

I can go on but this is a start.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

Uh, you might try posting some verses that have something to do with your claim that "friendship evangelism" is Biblical.

I did. PiJ did. People who criticize it don't know what it is. It isn't "say a prayer and your saved" evangelism. It is evangelism that comes from the heart, genuine concern for others, a biblical perspective presented with love and respect for the non-believer, a time-consuming, at times frustrating, but ultimately rewarding experience for those who have spent time leading friends and family to Christ who have genuinely sought Him.

Of course, actually cultivating friends in the world without compromising your status as a non-citizen of the world is complicated. Some don't believe it's possible. They're wrong.

 

[Iconoclast]

Romans 10, NASB
8 But what does it say ? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, in your mouth and in your heart " - that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.​

If that's not a "sinner's prayer," I don't know what is.

John 4
28 So the woman left her waterpot, and went into the city and said to the men,
29 "Come, see a man who told me all the things that I have done; this is not the Christ, is it?"
30 They went out of the city, and were coming to Him.
---
41 Many more believed because of His word;
42 and they were saying to the woman, "It is no longer because of what you said that we believe, for we have heard for ourselves and know that this One is indeed the Savior of the world."​

The first instance of friendship evangelism recorded in human history, and it's in the book of John.

While I admire Kirk Cameron and Ray Comfort's methodology, it isn't new, and there are very few methods of evangelism that don't challenge a person's better view of themselves than Christ has. You seem to think Way of the Master is the end all and be all of personal evangelism. It isn't. It's good, no doubt. But there are other methods equally effective, and to call them "unbiblical" simply because they don't specifically and formally address sin through the Mosaic Law is absurd.

Then there are those who are overly critical of others, think they have all the answers, and believe the only "right" way is their way. Perhaps you can explain to me why that happens?

The mistake you and others make, who criticize these allegedly "quick decisions," is that those who make those decisions have been thinking about it for some time. Otherwise they wouldn't be in a place where the could hear the truth, feel the work of the Holy Spirit upon them, and once and for all make that decision. While I understand our Pentecostal brothers and sisters are guilty of emotionalism whipped to a frenzy to "force" an on-the-spot decision by people who previously haven't thought about their need for salvation (and at that point haven't really made a decision anyway), rarely are there "quick decisions" made when proper evangelistic efforts have been exerted. It is simply a matter of one "reaping the harvest" after a chain of 15, 20 or a hundred people who have planted a seed, watered, fertilized, encouraged along the way. To claim these to be "quick decisions" is to utterly fail to understand the process that God brings a believer through before their actual salvation.

And whose counting heads now? Keeping a tally of "how many I've led to the Lord" doesn't appeal to me. It isn't a measuring rod of my "righteousness" or "engagement in God's work." It isn't even me who did it. I simply speak words. God does the work. Counting heads is an egocentric method of "counting sheep" that removes Christ from the throne and puts me on it. No thanks.

:wavey::applause::applause:...well :thumbs:said

 

[Iconoclast]

Can you provide some specific examples of Reformed pastors that support "unbiblical evangelism"?

:wavey: Exactly..who are what are you speaking of?