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Why Do Some Reject While Others Receive Salvation?

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by OldRegular, Apr 15, 2005.

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  1. icthus

    icthus New Member

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    Larry, you have refuted nothing. This is where we say to you that you twist the meaning of Scripture, because of your wilfull blindness due to loyalty to Calvinistic dogma, that causes most Calvinists to come up with things that directly contradict the Word of God.

    I am convinced by reading your posts here, that you have deluded yourself into believing wht you think is Biblical, whne in fact it is NOT. The added sad thing is, that there are some on the board who will follow your misgivings, begause you are a pastor.
     
    #41 icthus, Apr 17, 2005
  2. Kiffen

    Kiffen Member

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    :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
     
    #42 Kiffen, Apr 17, 2005
  3. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    A declarative statement about Jesus' inability. I surmized from that statement that OR does not believe Jesus is fully capable of delivering on promises, when I said in response to icthus' post,
    If what I said is a violation of the rules then what OR said is a violation of the Sovereignty of Jesus, the Son of God.

    I retract my statement relating to OR's faith.     </font>[/QUOTE]
    Final response by OldRegular

    Wes

    You accuse me of recycling your remarks and twisting them to make my point. Would you please indicate the post where you stated: Is it that Jesus Christ, the Author and Finisher of our faith, does a poorer job with some men than He does with others? since that seems to be the issue.

    By the way, I could not find "scoundrelism" in the dictionary but I found "scoundrel". It means an unprincipled, dishonorouble man, a villian. :D It is refreshing when one sees the love of Jesus Christ so openly displayed in the midst of debate. [​IMG]
     
    #43 OldRegular, Apr 17, 2005
  4. icthus

    icthus New Member

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    Time this thread also was closed
     
    #44 icthus, Apr 17, 2005
  5. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    I dont think it should be closed until you Arminians answer the question posed, namely:

    Given that all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags, that all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God, and that we were all dead in trespasses and sins, why is it that some accept the message of the Gospel to their eternal Salvation and some reject it to their eternal Damnation.

    So far no Arminian has even attemped to provide an answer! :D
     
    #45 OldRegular, Apr 17, 2005
  6. icthus

    icthus New Member

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    Old Regular, with due respect, how do you know that I am an Arminian? Just because I do not accept Calvinism, does not make me an Arminian.

    Have you not heard of "Free Will"? If you have, the this answers your question on accepting and rejecting the Gospel. If you don't believe that man has a "Free Will" to do so, then you do have a problem, as this makes man a robot, and unaccountable for his actions. Can you grasp this much?
     
    #46 icthus, Apr 17, 2005
  7. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest New Member

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    OldRegular posted 17-04-2005 08:04
     
    #47 Wes Outwest, Apr 17, 2005
  8. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    I don't believe that I have mentioned Calvinism in any of my posts. I have simply tried to show that Salvation is by the Sovereign Grace of God. Man in his natural state may think he has free will but that will is a captive or slave of sin. The Apostle Paul states as much in 1Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

    God in His Sovereign Grace frees His elect [Ephesians 1:3-6] from bondage to sin through regeneration by the Holy Spirit, the new birth [John 3:3; Ephesians 2:1-10]. Man being freed from bondage to sin has a true free will and is receptive to the Gospel which he receives in faith, the gift of God.

    I have posted the following before but it is worth repeating:

    John Dagg notes [Manual of Theology, pages 277ff]: “So great is the change produced, that the subject of it is called a new creature as if proceeding, like Adam, directly from the creating hand of God; and he is said to be renewed, as being restored to the image of God, in which man was originally formed”

    2 Corinthians 5:17, KJV
    17. Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

    Dagg further notes:

    “The change is moral. The body is unchanged; and the identity of the mind is not destroyed. The individual is conscious of being the same person that he was before; but a new direction is given to the active powers of the mind, and new affections are brought into exercise. The love of God is shed abroad in the heart by the Holy Ghost. No love to God had previously existed there; for the carnal heart is enmity against God. Love is the fulfilling of the law, the principle of all holy obedience; and when love is produced in the heart, the law of God is written there. As a new principle of action, inciting to a new mode of life, it renders the man a new creature. The production of love in the heart by the Holy Spirit, is the regeneration, or the new birth; for he that loveth, is born of God.”

    “The mode in which the Holy Spirit effects this change, is beyond our understanding. All God's ways are unsearchable; and we might as well attempt to explain how he created the world, as how he new-creates the soul. With reference to this subject, the Saviour said, The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.[John 3:8, KJV] We know, from the Holy Scriptures, that God employs his truth in the regeneration of the soul. Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.[James 1:18, KJV] Love to God necessarily implies knowledge of God, and this knowledge it is the province of truth to impart. But knowledge is not always connected with love. The devils know, but do not love; and wicked men delight not to retain the knowledge of God, because their knowledge of him is not connected with love. The mere presentation of the truth to the mind, is not all that is needed, in producing love to God in the heart.”

    The only robots are those who are in bondage to sin, the unsaved person; but they are accountable for their sins.
     
    #48 OldRegular, Apr 17, 2005
  9. here now

    here now Member

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    Wes says in response to Old Regular:

    I do not agree with Calvin's 5-points, nor do I agree with Arminius 100%. I am not Roman Catholic, I am not Mormon, I am not Lutheran, Episcopal, Methodist, etc., etc. I AM CHRISTIAN!

    I pray that you become one too!
    ***********************************************

    Wes,
    Why do you accuse Old Regular of not being Christian?

    I do not think that it should be allowed.
     
    #49 here now, Apr 18, 2005
  10. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest New Member

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    I've never seen his testimony, so there in no way for me to know, therefore I pray for his soul.

    Are you attempting to ban prayer for a fellow man?
     
    #50 Wes Outwest, Apr 18, 2005
  11. here now

    here now Member

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    You haven't seen his testimony? I've seen evidence all over the Baptist Board that he is a Christian.

    Have you given you're testimony, to us?
     
    #51 here now, Apr 18, 2005
  12. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    Yes, I have. I have refuted most of your false claims against us, such as the nonsense that we believe people are saved twice. And I have directly said that we don't believe that which should have been enough to make you stop saying it, since you now know it is false. Why repeat something that you know is false, if you intent is honest discussion?

    This is where you are wrong in what you say. Show us a place where we directly contradict the word of God. I am all ears. So far, every "direct contradiction" has been one of several things: 1) a misrepresentation of what we believe (such as the claim that we believe people are saved twice, or saved without faith); 2) a difference in interpretation of Scripture (such as who "the world" is in 1 JOhn 2:2); or 3) a place where your side have contradicted Scripture (such as Wes's claim that God doesn't give grace or faith, when Scripture explicitly says the opposite).

    Apart from something connected to one of those three things, you have not shown any contradictions. I welcome them, because if I am wrong, I want to know and I will change.

    Then please show me where this is true. I can and have defended everything I believe with Scripture. Why not come and sit down with me, and we will open the word and dig in. You can sit in the services and hear it defended publicly. And if you don't agree, we can sit down afterwards and talk about it. Will you take that challenge?
     
    #52 Pastor Larry, Apr 18, 2005
  13. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest New Member

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    You haven't seen his testimony? I've seen evidence all over the Baptist Board that he is a Christian.

    Have you given you're testimony, to us?     </font>[/QUOTE]May I refer you to this post in this topic

    Wes, Outwest posted 17-04-2005 10:05
     
    #53 Wes Outwest, Apr 18, 2005
  14. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    Wes,

    Your posts seems to mean nothing. The only post from from 4-17 at 10:05 is Icthus's, not OR's. It does not address a testimony of salvation.

    It is inappropriate for you to suggest that OR is not saved, based on what he has said here. Keep the discussion on theology, not on people.
     
    #54 Pastor Larry, Apr 18, 2005
  15. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest New Member

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    I copied and pasted the name and date-time group from the post in which I stated my beliefs. Perhaps the bbs time stamper has a problem. I have the time adjustment set correctly in "my profile".
     
    #55 Wes Outwest, Apr 18, 2005
  16. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Wes has denied the clear teaching of Scripture on another thread so whether or not he believes I am saved is irrelevant.
     
    #56 OldRegular, Apr 18, 2005
  17. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest New Member

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    Wes has not denied the clear teachings of Scripture, Wes denies YOUR teachings of scripture.
     
    #57 Wes Outwest, Apr 18, 2005
  18. icthus

    icthus New Member

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    Yes, I have. I have refuted most of your false claims against us, such as the nonsense that we believe people are saved twice. And I have directly said that we don't believe that which should have been enough to make you stop saying it, since you now know it is false. Why repeat something that you know is false, if you intent is honest discussion?

    This is where you are wrong in what you say. Show us a place where we directly contradict the word of God. I am all ears. So far, every "direct contradiction" has been one of several things: 1) a misrepresentation of what we believe (such as the claim that we believe people are saved twice, or saved without faith); 2) a difference in interpretation of Scripture (such as who "the world" is in 1 JOhn 2:2); or 3) a place where your side have contradicted Scripture (such as Wes's claim that God doesn't give grace or faith, when Scripture explicitly says the opposite).

    Apart from something connected to one of those three things, you have not shown any contradictions. I welcome them, because if I am wrong, I want to know and I will change.

    Then please show me where this is true. I can and have defended everything I believe with Scripture. Why not come and sit down with me, and we will open the word and dig in. You can sit in the services and hear it defended publicly. And if you don't agree, we can sit down afterwards and talk about it. Will you take that challenge?     </font>[/QUOTE]OK, Larry. I can't sit down and discuss this with you, as I am in London.

    Can you tell me how you can take "world" in John 3:16, and "whole world" (1 Jn 2:2), to refer to anything but the entire human race. You are here contradicting Scripture, as you cannot take "whole world" in 1 John 2:2, to refer to the "elect", for John uses the same phrase in 5:19, where he says, "the whole world lieth in wickedness". Is then then referring to the "elect" also?

    Calvinistic "interpretation" is where it goes against the Greek lexicons. I have consulted Ardnt and Gingrich, Thayer, Parkhurst, Robinson, Abbot-Smith, Kittel, and ALL these authorities say that in both places "the human race" is meant. Are they all wrong?
     
    #58 icthus, Apr 18, 2005
  19. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Wes has not denied the clear teachings of Scripture, Wes denies YOUR teachings of scripture. </font>[/QUOTE]The debate in question is shown on the thread " Sovereign Grace of God (Page 4)". The readers can judge for themselves whether or not you are denying the clear teaching of Scripture.
     
    #59 OldRegular, Apr 18, 2005
  20. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest New Member

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    Yes, I suppose they can OldRegular.
     
    #60 Wes Outwest, Apr 18, 2005
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