Why do True Believer Christians define some children as "innocent" . . .

[Yeshua1]

but that wasn't my contention. My contention is can one be innocent of commiting a sin yet still be under a sin nature? I can still be condemned to hell for my emnity against God yet never be guilty of having committed murder. Is that not so? Would I not then be innocent of commiting murder?

Original SIn doctrine holds that God reckons ALL died in Adam fall, guilty as he was, as he represented us before God!

same way, Jesus makes all alive in Him, as he represents us before God now!

We are sinners by nature, confirmed by choosing to sin!

 

[webdog]

>>Originally Posted by billwald
>>as in thread http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=82420

>>Don't you all know that we are all born "in trespasses and sins? As you all like to point out, God knew that David would be a murderer before he was born.


>Scripture for this? Ephesians passage you quoted says nothing of being born in trespasses and sins

Didn't know I quoted a scripture in this thread. You all know the Bible better than I do. If I say two times two equals four I don't need to reproduce the multiplication table. The multiplication table should be "written on your hearts."

Truth, the Bible teaches that we all have a sin nature but God only punishes us for actually committed sins, not for our father's sins or by implication, "thought sins." You all know better than I do.

Your use of quotations impliies your statement could and should be found in the Bible. You stated we are born in trespasses and sins. Is this a mere opinion or a biblical fact? If the latter, where in the Bible is this fact stated? That was my question.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Original SIn doctrine holds that God reckons ALL died in Adam fall, guilty as he was, as he represented us before God!

Yes it does. But that isn't what I was debating against. You wanted to know why some people view children as innocent. Now they may hold the guilt of simply being human but do they hold the guilt of their committed sin when they haven't done so?

same way, Jesus makes all alive in Him, as he represents us before God now!

Yes I agree with this

We are sinners by nature, confirmed by choosing to sin!

But what if you didn't choose to sin as yet. That is the differentiation I'm speaking about. I may go through my entire life at emnity towards God and die going to hell but never be guilty of murder thus am I not innocent of having committed murder? Is God so unjust as to charge someone for something they haven't done?

 

[billwald]

> You stated we are born in trespasses and sins. Is this a mere opinion or a biblical fact? If the latter, where in the Bible is this fact stated? That was my question.


Ephesians 2:1
And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Ephesians 2:1-3 (in Context) Ephesians 2 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
Colossians 2:13
And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
Colossians 2:12-14 (in Context) Colossians 2 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
Result pages:
1

 

[webdog]

> You stated we are born in trespasses and sins. Is this a mere opinion or a biblical fact? If the latter, where in the Bible is this fact stated? That was my question.


Ephesians 2:1
And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Ephesians 2:1-3 (in Context) Ephesians 2 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
Colossians 2:13
And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
Colossians 2:12-14 (in Context) Colossians 2 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
Result pages:
1

Thanks. Those texts prove personal accountability due to personal transgressions, not inherited through conception. While used to prove Augustinianism, they in actuality refute it.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Thanks. Those texts prove personal accountability due to personal transgressions, not inherited through conception. While used to prove Augustinianism, they in actuality refute it.

Quite so! Excellent observation!

 

[The Biblicist]

Thanks. Those texts prove personal accountability due to personal transgressions, not inherited through conception. While used to prove Augustinianism, they in actuality refute it.

No, they confirm conceptional degeneration even though they do not deny personal responsibility for personal transgressions. Personal transgressions may account for personal responsibility but that does not account for personal degeneration and death which is expressed in infants even in the womb as a miscarriage is death and death is a result of sin and the sin cannot be something the infant committed as an individual.

 

[webdog]

No, they confirm conceptional degeneration even though they do not deny personal responsibility for personal transgressions. Personal transgressions may account for personal responsibility but that does not account for personal degeneration and death which is expressed in infants even in the womb as a miscarriage is death and death is a result of sin and the sin cannot be something the infant committed as an individual.

You cannot use physical death as the gauge of guilt. Christ died yet was without guilt. All believers will die yet are not guilty. Death is a result of the curse. The passages clearly state you were dead in your sins and trespasses. No way to interpret that to mean you were dead prior to transgressing Gods law.

 

[SovereignMercy]

Yes it does. But that isn't what I was debating against. You wanted to know why some people view children as innocent. Now they may hold the guilt of simply being human but do they hold the guilt of their committed sin when they haven't done so?

Yes I agree with this


But what if you didn't choose to sin as yet. That is the differentiation I'm speaking about. I may go through my entire life at emnity towards God and die going to hell but never be guilty of murder thus am I not innocent of having committed murder? Is God so unjust as to charge someone for something they haven't done?

Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin my mother conceived me.

For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.

 

[The Biblicist]

You cannot use physical death as the gauge of guilt. Christ died yet was without guilt. All believers will die yet are not guilty. Death is a result of the curse. The passages clearly state you were dead in your sins and trespasses. No way to interpret that to mean you were dead prior to transgressing Gods law.

"the wages of sin is death" and death is the curse! So yes, we can use physical death as a guage of sin. Yes, we were born spiritually dead separated from God from the mother's womb due to the union of the whole human nature acting in Adam when he sinned (Rom. 5:12-19).

 

[billwald]

"Christ died yet was without guilt" Far as we know, so did all the OT saints.

Jesus was a special case. God can do things that humans can't. "WWJD" is a silly concept.

 

[The Biblicist]

"Christ died yet was without guilt" Far as we know, so did all the OT saints.

Acts 10:43 spells out why they died without guilt - read it and then believe it!

Jesus was a special case. God can do things that humans can't. "WWJD" is a silly concept.

The incarnation removed Christ from the cycle begun with Adam and spelled out in Romans 5:12 and epitomized by the term "passed".

 

[webdog]

"the wages of sin is death" and death is the curse! So yes, we can use physical death as a guage of sin. Yes, we were born spiritually dead separated from God from the mother's womb due to the union of the whole human nature acting in Adam when he sinned (Rom. 5:12-19).

Then by your own admission Christ must have been born spiritually dead separated from God. No way around it.

 

[The Biblicist]

Then by your own admission Christ must have been born spiritually dead separated from God. No way around it.

I know you are very capable of reading English but are you capable of understanding what you read or did you just intentionally distort my words and meaning?

Here is what I said:

"the wages of sin is death" and death is the curse! So yes, we can use physical death as a guage of sin. Yes, we were born spiritually dead separated from God from the mother's womb due to the union of the whole human nature acting in Adam when he sinned (Rom. 5:12-19).

The context of my words were natural born humans not the incarnate born Jesus Christ. However, yes we can still use death as a guage of sin even in the death of Christ as he was "made to be sin FOR US." However, as he said no man taketh his life from him but he wilingly laid it down as the Second Adam the substitute in representative capacity.

 

[webdog]

I know you are very capable of reading English but are you capable of understanding what you read or did you just intentionally distort my words and meaning?

Here is what I said:

"the wages of sin is death" and death is the curse! So yes, we can use physical death as a guage of sin. Yes, we were born spiritually dead separated from God from the mother's womb due to the union of the whole human nature acting in Adam when he sinned (Rom. 5:12-19).

The context of my words were natural born humans not the incarnate born Jesus Christ. However, yes we can still use death as a guage of sin even in the death of Christ as he was "made to be sin FOR US." However, as he said no man taketh his life from him but he wilingly laid it down as the Second Adam the substitute in representative capacity.

So Christ was not 100% fully human? The Bible disagrees with this assumption.

 

[The Biblicist]

So Christ was not 100% fully human? The Bible disagrees with this assumption.

I never said that either! Adam was 100% human without sin before the fall and 100% human with sin after the fall! Hence a sinful nature does not make one more or less human and Christ had no sinful nature.

 

[percho]

I would say prior to the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ all were dead in trespass and sin just it was told Adam dying thou shall surely die.

Prior to the death of Jesus Christ all men dying would be dead for ever and ever, for there had not been any redemption made for sin.

In Adam all would die.

The Lamb without spot or blemish died for the sin of the world. The death penalty has been paid. The faith through which grace would bring salvation had taken place.

The all can now be made alive in Christ.

Who gets to decide whether one is resurrected to life or to damnation?

 

[webdog]

I never said that either! Adam was 100% human without sin before the fall and 100% human with sin after the fall! Hence a sinful nature does not make one more or less human and Christ had no sinful nature.

Likewise a sinful nature doesn't make one guilty. The Bible says Christ was human in every manner we are.

 

[The Biblicist]

Likewise a sinful nature doesn't make one guilty. The Bible says Christ was human in every manner we are.

Not true! Adam was sinless and 100% human before the fall and without guilt and he was 100% human after the fall but not without guilt. The difference? No difference in human nature! The difference is sin and death and that is passed down to all who are not born by incarnation as all infant are born with a sinful nature and subject to death.

 

[Yeshua1]

Likewise a sinful nature doesn't make one guilty. The Bible says Christ was human in every manner we are.

NO!

he was the second Adam, who thru being born of the Virgin, conceived by the Holy Spirit, bypassed the effects of the Fall of Man in Adam, and also he was BOTH very God of God, man of man!
Jesus was unique, and thank God he was NOT exactly as one of us, or else we would still be in our sins today!