Wittenberger
New Member
Please keep that same thought in mind when you are making comments about the beliefs of some of the rest us, brother.
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Why Do We Spend Time Debating Denominations of Unlike Faith and Order?
- Thread starter saturneptune
- Start date
Please keep that same thought in mind when you are making comments about the beliefs of some of the rest us, brother.
What is the purpose of having this particular forum if you are not interested in why others disagree with you. You have been on this board a long time and still insists that Catholics 'pray to statues' when it has been demonstrated time after time that is not true. You have decided you want to believe that about Catholics so there is probably no reason to continue to discuss it with you. You don't seem to be interested in what the Catholic Church actually teaches.
You say you would only last about one day on a Catholic board if you went there and 'spoke the truth'. Well, if you post with the kind of inflammatory remarks you make here you are probably right. If you went there and respectfully debated them you would be more than welcome. I had some of the same ideas about Catholics that you do when I began to participate on one of their boards. I didn't get banned.
I agree with others who say 'if you don't want to hear it, stay in the Baptist Only forums'.
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Michael, attacking your position is different than attacking your person. I attacked your position.
It should be obvious that doctrinally there is only ONE true gospel and any other is "another gospel" and all who have really embraced "another gospel" as their sincere profession of faith are "accursed."
I never claimed that you at your professed salvation experience embraced "another gospel". I would never claim that as I have no way to prove that is true. I didn't make that claim.
All I said, was that "IF" that were the gospel initially embraced and based your salvation testimony upon then the consequence of "another gospel" will follow.
However, I make no bones about it that the gospel you are presently defending is "another gospel."
That said, I don't hate you as a person. In fact, I have grown to like you personally and that is equally true with TS. However, I guess attacking your positions is taken as attacking your person. I can't help it if you take it that way.
Michael Wrenn
New Member
Have I called you apostate or said that you were teaching another gospel or another christ?
If that is your view you shouldn't be here. This forum is not for evangelization. Look at the forum name: Other Christian Denominations. If you are not a Christian you do not belong here. If you think those that post here are not Christians and would like them to follow your faith you do not belong here. This forum is for those who are not Baptists but who are Christians from other denominations.
Somewhat correct (not for me, but for the Calvinist). Even the Calvinist has the obligation to obey the Great Commission and go and evangelize for he doesn't know who the elect is.
True enough. But we give a sound defense to be debated with others who are already believers, not unbelievers.
Many call themselves Christians and are not. That is where the rub comes in. One was banned recently because he denied the trinity and held to some other false doctrine. His language was also crude. One cannot be a Christian and deny the trinity at the same time. Non-trinitarians are not permitted here because of their unorthodox doctrine shows them to be part of a cult, and not holding to the "faith contended for by the saints."
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Michael Wrenn
New Member
Let me just say this to you: If you think that I am teaching another gospel, then it logically follows that you think I am apostate, does it not? And if that is so, then it logically follows that I am going to hell, according to your reasoning, does it not? If that is not attacking me personally, what would you call it?
Also, let me ask you this: Is it not true that you think that anyone who does not believe like you is teaching another gospel and following another christ? Are those churches which do not believe like your church teaching another gospel and following another christ? You have already condemned all free-willers to hell, including free will Baptists, by saying they are apostate, and that category includes me. Looks like to me that heaven is going to be very sparsely populated if only people who believe like you will be there.
I appreciate your defense of believer's baptism and your posts on sacramentalism. And I have no problem about being passionate, as I am that myself.
I'm glad that you think you've grown to like me personally, but I don't see how that can be true if you consider me apostate. If you see me as an enemy of the true gospel, I don't see how you can like me.
Since you made an effort to respond in what is to you a conciliatory manner,
I felt I owed you a calm, reasoned, and civil response.
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Do you think that TS is preaching another gospel? Yes or no?
What are your answers then to the same questions you are asking of Biblicist?
Michael Wrenn
New Member
I think that TS is within historic orthodoxy. The RCC affirms the Apostles and Nicene Creeds -- both orthodox statements of the faith. Now I do believe he and the RCC are wrong on several doctrines; I have serious disagreements with them on those doctrines, but I feel the same way about some of what Biblicist believes.
But with neither Biblicist nor TS would I say that they are preaching another gospel. Apparently I can tolerate much more diversity than Biblicist can and still consider someone as orthodox or as not being apostate. For instance, as strongly as I disagree with OSAS, I would never accuse those of holding it as being apostate. Heck, if I did that, I would have to believe that my own mother was apostate!
So, do you and Biblicist think that heaven is going to be populated with only Landmark Baptists?
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Thinkingstuff
Active Member
I agree with this statement but I would expand to include these truths:
1. The Trinity
2. The Virgin Birth
3. The Incarnation
4. The Crucifixion - Real physical suffering and death.
5. The Resurrection - Real physical bodily Resurrection from the dead
6. The Acension
7. The future 2nd Advent (Return) of Jesus Christ.
Now that is my list. But I believe that all Christians who are truelly Christians believe in these truths.
The problem is in how you rationalize and draw conclusions.
Depends on how you define "apostate." If you define it as a saved person who has departed from salvation, then I reject that definition altogether.
If you define it as a lost person who had departed from a TRUE PROFESSION of salvation but never POSSESSED it or was ever truly regenerated - ok!
If you define it as a saved person who later embraces a wrong view of
salvation only to have fallen from the doctrine and original profession of grace rather than fallen from their spiritual state of grace. Ok!
However, if you are saying that a truly saved person who intellectually embraces "another gospel" must be a lost person - I reject that definition.
The last definition is what you are attempting to make my view.
And if that is so, then it logically follows that I am going to hell, according to your reasoning, does it not? If that is not attacking me personally, what would you call it? -MW
That is not my beleif. I believe there are many saved persons who have been led astray and joined denominations that preach and teach "another gospel." Those in Galatia are examples of saved people later "bewitched" and fell INTELLECTUALLY from the doctrine of grace.
I have stated this several times previously but let state in terms you cannot misunderstand:
I believe God has his people in nearly all denominations IN SPITE OF what those denominations may or may not teach.
However, that does not change the false doctrine, false gospel they have embraced or taugh into TRUTH!
Depends on how you define "apostate." If you define it as a saved person who has departed from salvation, then I reject that definition altogether.
If you define it as a lost person who had departed from a TRUE PROFESSION of salvation but never POSSESSED it or was ever truly regenerated - ok!
If you define it as a saved person who later embraces a wrong view of
salvation only to have fallen from the doctrine and original profession of grace rather than fallen from their spiritual state of grace. Ok!
However, if you are saying that a truly saved person who intellectually embraces "another gospel" must be a lost person - I reject that definition.
The last definition is what you are attempting to make my view.
And if that is so, then it logically follows that I am going to hell, according to your reasoning, does it not? If that is not attacking me personally, what would you call it? -MW
That is not my beleif. I believe there are many saved persons who have been led astray and joined denominations that preach and teach "another gospel." Those in Galatia are examples of saved people later "bewitched" and fell INTELLECTUALLY from the doctrine of grace.
I have stated this several times previously but let state in terms you cannot misunderstand:
I believe God has his people in nearly all denominations IN SPITE OF what those denominations may or may not teach.
However, that does not change the false doctrine, false gospel they have embraced or taugh into TRUTH!
>Even the Calvinist has the obligation to obey the Great Commission and go and evangelize for he doesn't know who the elect is.
The Calvinist evangelizes because he knows their are elect people out there who need to be invited to Christian fellowship. You dispensationalists have no logical (factual) reason to believe that anyone will respond to your invitation.
The Calvinist evangelizes because he knows their are elect people out there who need to be invited to Christian fellowship. You dispensationalists have no logical (factual) reason to believe that anyone will respond to your invitation.
We are talking about what FALSE doctrines are required to define a "gospel" to be "another gospel."
Paul makes it very clear that the doctrine of "justification by works" is the central basis of what is "another gospel." Hence, anyone who preaches salvation by "justification by works" is indeed preaching "another gospel."
Now, we are divided about what did Paul mean by "justification by works." However, that disagreement does not change the fact that "justification by works" is the essential basis for Paul's charge that some preach "another gospel."
If my definition of " by works" is that "works" are defined by good motives and intents of the heart manifested by good words and bodily actions of men performed FOR God [because all admit that "bad" motives and intents of the heart and "bad" words and bodily actions cannot justify anyone before God], then Roman Catholic sancramentalism is "good" works performed by men FOR God and thus is "justification by works" and therefore is "another gospel."
If my definition of "justification" is the good motives and intents of the heart of Christ and his good words and bodily actions are LEGALLY IMPUTED to me while not imputing my sins to me but imputing them to Jesus Christ as the second Adam or my representative on the cross is the Biblical teaching, then you are teaching and preaching "another gospel."
If my definition of "justification by faith without works" is correct than "eternal security" is the inseperable consequence of that teaching OR else Christ failed in his substitutionary representative role to satisfy ALL CONDITIONS of the Law in my behalf and hence my salvation is no obtained but conditioned ultimately upon my own satisfaction of the Laws penal and righteous demands and may be forfeited based upon my own works. If my position is correct then all who deny eternal security are denying the very essence of the gospel and proclaiming justification by works.
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Wittenberger
New Member
You called my beliefs "garbage".
I can handle it. I'm just pointing out that you may be as guilty of infammatory coments as the rest of us.
Well, I hold to both of those, so who would I give the invite to?
Michael Wrenn
New Member
I never denied that.
But even so, I never said you were going to hell for holding the beliefs you do.
Nobody said that about you either! That was your own conclusion drawn by your own rationalizations.
Michael Wrenn
New Member
What does it mean to be an apostate? What is the fate of such a person?
Michael Wrenn
New Member
A follow-up: I don't remember where I called your beliefs "garbage". Show me where I said that, and I will apologize publicly.
If you cannot bear to think that some beleive your teachings are false then this is the wrong place for you.
Michael Wrenn
New Member
Being wrong on something and being an apostate are two different things.
I believe you are wrong about a lot of things, but I don't think you're apostate.