Why does Dispensationalism teach...

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by DeafPosttrib:
Romans 10:12 speaks of ANY individuals over the world of today's.

Yes. There is not dispute about that.

]In your mind, we as Gentiles have better blessing and advanced standing than Jews have - today's. Where did you get the idea come from?

My question is, Where did you get that idea from??? I don't believe that. In the church, there is no Jew or Gentile. Both have equal standing adn equal blessing. That is the point of those passages you cited.

]In your mind, Church shall be separate FROM Israel in the future ar the rapture. If so, you have to prove us, where verse to support your teaching?

Yes, I have listed those verses many times. Scripture makes a distinction between the Church (made of believing Jews and Gentiles) and national Israel to whom God made specific but as yet unfulfilled promises.

Church is for over ALLLLLLLLLLLL nations include Israel as physical nation of today's that Calvary already reconciled both Jews and Gentiles together into one. No longer divided between Jews and Gentiles after the the result of Calvary forever and ever.

This is true in teh church age.

we are in the New Testament period, Israel is speak of spiritual nation - 1 Peter 2:9.

But that position makes passages like Rom 9-11 nonsense. It is not even understandable with that position. Rom 9-11 makes a very clear distinction between Israel and the Church.

Again, Matt 13:39-42, 49-50; Matt 25:31-46; and 2 Thess. 1:7-9 tell us, all unbelievers shall be cast away into everlasting life at the Lord's coming,

At his second coming, not at the rapture. Dispensationalism recognizes the Scriptural distinction between these. They are often glossed over.

Bottom line is this: YOu are overlooking the distinctions that Scripture makes. You are applying verses to the wrong thing. You cannot do that and still make sense of Scripture.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

national Israel to whom God made specific but as yet UNfulfilled promises

Please lists of verses in the New Testment telling us, the promises to the national Israel are not yet fulfilled right now?

[Quote}My question is, where did you get that idea from??? I don't believe that[/Quote]

Why do you saying, "Jews do not have advanced standing or better blessings that non-Jews in the Church, in the first place?

But that position makes passages like Romans 9-11 nonsense...Rom. 9-11 makes a very clear distinction between Israel and the Church

That is not what in Paul's mind of Romans 9-11. He never saying there is distinction between Israel and Church. I think many dispensationalists seem do not understand the purpose of Calvary all about. Also covenant too. Tomorrow, I will discuss more on Romans chapter 9 to 11, also another passages on dispensationalism issue. Notice, word, 'church' does not appear from Romans chapter 1 to chapter 15. 'Church' finally appears in Romans chapter 16, does that mean, the church is excluded from Romans chapter 1 to 15?

At his second coming, not at the rapture

Early Church taught that the gathering together shall be at Christ's coming. None of them teaching on two phases of the second coming in the first of 18 Centuries. Two phases of the second coming was developed in the middle of 19th Century. Bible does not teaching on two phases of the second coming. Bible clearly teaching us. our gathering together/harvest shall be at Christ's coming on the last day.

Please read at topic -'Which Coming?' tell me on the lists, which one is 2nd or 3rd is His coming?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Larry,

By the way, earlier, you said,

Because the body of Christ is already gone by that time

I asked you for prove me where verse saying according your words. You not yet show me verses to support your words. I am still wait for your answer.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

[Russ Kelly]

gb93433 asked for refeences to dispensationalists before Darby, Larkin and Chafer. I have already listed Walvoord's, The Millennial Kingdom. I add Ryrie's, Dispensationalism.

The only thing that Darby and company added was their systemization of ideas which were always around. Ryrie mentions Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria and Augustine as leaders who explained biblical history and salvation in ispensation-type terminology.

Ryrie quotes Poiret of France (1646-1719), Jonathan Edwards (1637-1716) and Isaac Watts (1674-1748) as predecessors of Darby who clearly divided salvation history into dispensations.
............
To change the subject, non-dispies keep quoting Galatians 3:26-29. I ask you, did the first century church suddenly STOP DIFFERENTIATING between Jews and Greeks? No! Acts 15 and 21 and 1 Cor 9 prove that they let each group do "it own thing" except in matters of essential salvation.

I ask you, did the first century church FREE ALL OF ITS SLAVES? [ie free and bond] NO! They just treated them as brothers in Christ.

I ask you, did the first century church start allowing homosexual marriage, cross-dressing, and unisex clothes? [ie male and female] No! If so, then why the fuss about men-only preachers?

What does "And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise" mean?

If you bother looking up Genesis 12;1-4, you will discover that this is only ONE PART of the entire ABrahamic Covenant. the

 

[Russ Kelly]

gb93433 asked for refeences to dispensationalists before Darby, Larkin and Chafer. I have already listed Walvoord's, The Millennial Kingdom. I add Ryrie's, Dispensationalism.

The main thing that Darby and company added was their systemization of ideas which were always around. Ryrie mentions Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria and Augustine as leaders who explained biblical history and salvation in dispensation-type terminology.

Ryrie quotes Poiret of France (1646-1719), Jonathan Edwards (1637-1716) and Isaac Watts (1674-1748) as predecessors of Darby who clearly divided salvation history into dispensations.
............
To change the subject, non-dispies keep quoting Galatians 3:26-29. I ask you, did the first century church suddenly STOP DIFFERENTIATING between Jews and Greeks? No! Acts 15 and 21 and 1 Cor 9 prove that they let each group do "it own thing" except in matters of essential salvation.

For example, is it so hard to grasp that all U.S. citizens have equal rights, yet groups like the Ameerican Indian and certain minorities have unique rights within the system? Likewise, we can all be God's children, yet receive different treatment because of "grandfather" clauses.

I ask you, did the first century church FREE ALL OF ITS SLAVES? [ie free and bond] NO! They just treated them as brothers in Christ.

I ask you, did the first century church start allowing homosexual marriage, cross-dressing, and unisex clothes? [ie male and female] No! If so, then why the fuss about men-only preachers?

What does "And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise" mean?

If you look up Genesis 12:1-4, you will discover that this is only ONE PART of the entire Abrahamic Covenant. The OTHER PART of the ONE unconditional Abrahamic Covenant dealt with the NATION ISRAEL.

There is simply no grounds for slicing the Abrahamic Covenant into two parts and discarding the half you disagree with. It is ONE UNCONDITIONAL COVENANT with TWO PARTS.

It is NOT the Old Covenant. Read Galatians 3.

[ May 03, 2004, 09:47 PM: Message edited by: Russ Kelly ]

 

[Pennsylvania Jim]

Originally posted by Russ Kelly:
...
The main thing that Darby and company added was their systemization of ideas which were always around. Ryrie mentions Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria and Augustine as leaders who explained biblical history and salvation in dispensation-type terminology.

Ryrie quotes Poiret of France (1646-1719), Jonathan Edwards (1637-1716) and Isaac Watts (1674-1748) as predecessors of Darby who clearly divided salvation history into dispensations.
...

Even today's non-Dispensationalists speak of "dispensations" (small "d"), but that is not the same as "Dispensationalism" (capital "D"). No orthodox Christian that I know of would argue that the OT age was the same as the NT age in all respects, and the term "dispensation" is commonly used to describe different ages. But "Dispensationalism", as you point out, is a system formalized by Darby et al. So, it is not accurate, I don't think, to claim that men like Clement or Jonathan Edwards held to Dispensationalism as it is known today.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by DeafPosttrib:
Please lists of verses in the New Testment telling us, the promises to the national Israel are not yet fulfilled right now?

Come on DPT ... What in the world??? Read the OT promises and you can see that they are plainly not fulfilled. You keep asking for verses. All you need to do is read.

Why do you saying, "Jews do not have advanced standing or better blessings that non-Jews in the Church, in the first place?

Because they don't. Jews do not have advanced standing or better blessing than non-Jews in teh church. That doesn't mean they are worse. It means they are equal. That is exactly what Paul says.

That is not what in Paul's mind of Romans 9-11.

That is exactly what he is saying. AGain, we have discussed this ad nauseum and you are not willing to understand what I am saying now anymore than you have been in the past.

Early Church taught that the gathering together shall be at Christ's coming.

You don't consider Paul to be a part of the early church??? I don't quite understand that. Secondly, I think you are off base anyway on your assertion.

Please read at topic -'Which Coming?' tell me on the lists, which one is 2nd or 3rd is His coming?

There are only two comings. Any lists that tries to make three comings is a bad list. It was probably designed with an end in mind rather than with a proper understanding of what dispensationalism teaches.

Again, I question the reason why you keep asking. This information has been beat to death on this forum in discussions of which you have been apart. I have recommended some resources if you are truly interested. I hope you will avail yourselves of them.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

national Israel to whom God made specific but as yet unfulfilled promises

I would like to show you many verses in the Old Testaments on the promises to Israel, thse are already fulfilled in the New Testament apply to the church. Understand, I am NOT a replacement theology.

Dispneationalists view Israel and the Church having distinct eternal destinies. Israel shall receive an eternal earthly kingdom, and the Church shall receive an eternal heavenly kingdom.

Throughout centuries, Christian theology has always defend the essentialimportance continuity of Israel and the church. The elect of all the ages are seen as ONE people, with ONE saviour, ONE destiny.

This continuity can be shown by examining in the Old Testament prophecies with their fulfillment:

Promise to Israel -

"Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, Which cannot be measured or numbered. And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them, 'You are not My people,' there it shall be said to them, 'You are sons of the living God.' - Hosea 1:10

Fulfillment in the Church-

What if God, willing to show his wath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? As he saith also in Hosea, 'I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloeved, which was not beloeved. And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them. Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God." Romans 9:22-26

Promise to Israel -

And I will sow her unto me in the earth; and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to them which were not my people, Thou are my people; and they shall say , Thou art my God. Hosea 2:23

Fulfillment in the church -

Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy. 1 Peter 2:10

Promise to Israel -

In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old: Amos 9:11

Fufillment in the Church -

Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, 'After this I will return and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things. Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. Acts 15:14-18

Spoken to Isreal -

And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit. And I will show wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the Lord come. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call. Joel 2:28-32

Applied to the Church -

When the day of Pentacost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; 'And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my spirit; and they shall prophesy: And I will show wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke: The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. Acts 2:1, 16-21

Spoken to Israel -

And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and a holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel. Exodus 19:6

Applied to the Church -

But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should show forth the prises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvelous light: 1 Peter 2:9

Spoken to Israel -

My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Ezekiel 37:27

Applied to the Church -

And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, 'I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.' 2 Corinthians 6:16

Spoken to Israel -

Speak unto all the congregation of the children of Israel, and say unto them, 'Ye shall be holy: for I the LORD your God am holy.' Leviticus 19:2

Applied to the Church -

But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; Because it is written, 'Be ye holy; for I am holy.' 1 Peter 1:15-16

Spoken to Israel -

Behold, the days come saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and the house the house of Judah. Jeremiah 31:31

Applied to the Church -

Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, 'This sup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.' Luke 22:20

Also,

For finding fault with them, he saith, 'Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: Hebrews 8:8

The most important doctrine, that we all should understand about the new covenant, that is the problem for the dispensationalists.

Because, dispensationalism teaches, Israel and the Church are STILL distinct today, and, when the rapture comes, God will take Church out of the earth, and will focus on Israel again for seven tribulation period.

Actaully, Israel simple mean, God's people. Church simple mean, God's people. Both are no difference.

Also, Calvary is the most important doctrine in the Bible, that every Christians should understand. Dispensationalism teaching of the distinct between 'Israel' and 'Church', which is against the purpose of Calvary.

Does the Bible teaching us, both 'Israel' and the Church are now currently distinct? No. Christ told us, "It is finished" - John 19:30, shows that the prophecies in the Old Testament are fulfilled speak of the salvation, covenant, and calvary. Christ fulfilled the first covenant, he already make a new covenant for Jews and Gentiles by through his blood of calvary.

No longer divided between Jews and Gentiles again forever and ever........

There is no scripture find anywhere in the New Testament saying, God shall removed 'Gentile' Church from the 'Jews' Israel at the beginning of seven year tribulation period. That is against the unity of Calvary.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

[Daniel David]

Originally posted by DeafPosttrib:
Dispneationalists view Israel and the Church having distinct eternal destinies. Israel shall receive an eternal earthly kingdom, and the Church shall receive an eternal heavenly kingdom.

I don't know why you keep posting this rubbish. I am beginning to think you are spamming the thread.

I have told you time and again that you are wrong in your information.

The eternal destiny for all believers of all time is the new earth with Christ.

The church is a distinct entity because of TIME not advanced standing or anything like that. Christ came to get a bride.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

You don't consider Paul to be a part of the early church???

Aboslutely!!! YES!! Apostle Paul was the part of the early church!

If you think Paul teaching that rapture is NOT at Christ's coming?

Paul wrote: "For this we say unto you BY the word of the Lord..." - 1 Thess. 4:15

How does Apostle Paul received the words of the Lord comes from? By through the revelation. Revelation means supernatural communicate between God and man through vision, dream. Paul tells us in Galatians 1:12 "For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but BY the revelation of Jesus Christ." Paul received the words through Jesus Christ by the revelation. Paul was taught by Jesus Christ in the desert for 3 years - Gal. 1:17-18.

Paul wrote of 1 Thess 4:15-17 about the coming of the Lord. Notice there is the comparing of 1 Thess. 4:15-17 with Matthew 24:30-31:


1 Thess. 4:15-17 Matt 24:30-31

1. Coming -v. 15 Coming -v. 30
2. Clouds -v. 17 Clouds -v. 30
3. Heaven -v. 16 Heaven -v. 30
4. Shout - v. 16 Sound - v. 31
5. Trump - v. 16 Trumpet - v. 31
6. Archangel-v.16 Angels - v. 31
7. Together - v. 17 Together -v. 31
8. In Christ -v. 17 Elect -v. 31
9. Air - v. 17 Wind -v. 31

The comparing of 1 Thess 4:15-17 & Matt 24:30-31 both are same. Apostle Paul speaks of the only one future coming to gathering Christians together at once. same as Christ taught us, at His coming, we all shall be gathering together.

Archnagel of 1 Thess 4:16 seems different from 'angels' of Matt 24:31. Actually, it finds in 2 Thess. 1:7 speaks of Christ coming with his angels same with Matt 24:31. So, therefore, Paul taught the only one future coming goes with the gathering together same time. Yes, the Early Church taught that the gathering together shall be at Christ's coming same as what Christ and Paul taught.

Any lists that tries to make three comings is a bad list.

Aboslutely, I agree with you. Then, why you saying rapture is NOT at Christ's coming??? That mean pretrib teaches there are two phases of the second coming, mean, they teaching rapture is "second coming", then seven years later Christ's coming is the "third coming". Huh???

All of these lists speak of the only one future coming of Christ is very clear and simple.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

[DeafPosttrib]

DD,

Premillennialism teaches, Israel shall inherit earthly kingdom, and the Church shall inherit heavnely kingdom during millennial kingdom.

Bible teaches us, Jews and Gentiles shall have both earthly and heavenly kingdom at Christ's coming, we shall reign with Christ on new earth at His coming. Also, both Jews and Gentiles shall dwell in New Jerusalem on new earth together forever and ever at Christ's coming.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

[Pastor Larry]

DPT,

Your attempt to show promises fulfilled in the church is lacking greatly in context and understanding. I looked briefly through your list and see that you have not identified even one promise to Israel that was actually fulfilled in or with or to the church. Your supposition is driving you to a conclusion that Scripture does not actually support.

I think what you need to do is start over with trying to understand dispensationalism. You are laboring under a lot of misconceptions and they are leading you down the wrong path on this issue.

 

[Russ Kelly]

Non dispies
Like Pastor Larry, I have seen the list of so-called fullfilled prophecies" ad nauseum on many forums.

Look at the Abrahamic Covenant in Genesis 12:1-3
a. To the land which I will show you;
b. And I will make you a great nation,
c. And I will bless you,
d. And make your name great;
e. And so you shall be a blessing;
f. nd I will bless those who bless you,
g. And the one who curses you I will curse.
h. And in you all the families of the earth will be blessed."

CONCLUSION:
a.

 

[Russ Kelly]

Like Pastor Larry, I have seen the list of so-called fullfilled prophecies" ad nauseum on many forums.

Look at the Abrahamic Covenant in Genesis 12:1-3
a. To the LAND which I will show you;
b. And I will make you a GREAT NATION,
c. And I will bless you,
d. And make your name great;
e. And so you shall be a blessing;
f. nd I will bless those who bless you,
g. And the one who curses you I will curse.
h. And in you all the families of the earth will be blessed."

CONCLUSION:
a. This is only ONE covenant with TWO parts.
b. Both parts are literal and unconditdional.
c. Non-dispies are WRONG when they ignore the first part!
d. The church blessings are only associated with teh second part.

Now look at Genesis 15:
6 Then he believed in the LORD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.
7 And He said to him, "I am the LORD who brought you out of Ur of the Chaldeans, to give you this LAND to possess it."
8-17 [God again confirms ONE unconditinal covenant linking both the great statement of verse 6 with the LABD]
18 On that day the LORD made a COVENANT with Abram, saying,
"To your descendants I have given this LAND....

Many following promises declare that they will possess the land for ever. How can you preach and teach Genesis 12:3c and 15:6 and then ignore everything they stand in context with????

We dispensationalists simply cannot and will not believe that only the last part of the Abrahamic Covenant is unconditional.

The Abrahamic Covenant, not the Old Covenant, is our strong point.

 

[Russ Kelly]

Friends,
Please forgive me for causing so much repetition. I am legally blind and keep hitting something wrong to end my post early. If you know what I am doing wrong, please let me know. Thanks.

 

[Dave Taylor]

God's Promises are Historically Fulfilled.

No need to try to revive them, and try to re-apply them to some point in the future.

Joshua 21:43 "And the LORD gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein. And the LORD gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand. There failed not ought of any good thing which the LORD had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass. "

Galatians 3:14 "That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto. Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ."

The promises to Abraham were fulfilled physically via land, in Joshua's day; and completely via 'seed' by Christ.

Stop looking for unfulfilled promises that have already been fulfilled.

The promises to Abraham have been fulfilled.

The NT scriptures make it so clear to anyone who will listen and heed them; and stop looking for re-fulfillments of OT prophecies already fulfilled in Christ.


Luke 1:70 "As He spake by the mouth of His holy prophets, which have been since the world began: That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us; To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant; The oath which He sware to our father Abraham, That he would grant unto us"

Acts 7:5 "And He gave him none inheritance in it, no, not so much as to set his foot on: yet He promised that He would give it to him for a possession, and to His seed after Him"

Romans 4:13 "For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed"

Romans 9:7 "Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed."

Romans 15:8 "Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers"

2 Corinthians 1:19 "For the Son of God, Jesus Christ...For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us."

Hebrews 6:12 "That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises. For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself, Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee. And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise."

Galatians 3:26 "For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."

 

[Daniel David]

Originally posted by DeafPosttrib:
DD,

Premillennialism teaches, Israel shall inherit earthly kingdom, and the Church shall inherit heavnely kingdom during millennial kingdom.

It is like talking to a wall. Did I not just tell you what I as a dispy believe? Pay attention.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

DD,

There is the fact what premill actually teaching. I am not talk to the wall. I did study premill doctrine, what they believe, there is the fact.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!