Why does faith+works=not saved?

[mman]

I've found it, I've found it!!!!

I've searched the scriptures and I've finally found where it says faith only.

This is the single place in the entire scripture where it mentions faith only.

James 2:24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

You cannot seperate faith and works and still have acceptable biblical faith. If you want to see what real biblical faith is, Read Heb 11. Without this type of faith, you can't be pleasing to God (Heb 11:6).

By faith Abel offered (v4)
By faith, Noah...prepared an ark (v7)
By faith Abraham obeyed (v8)
By faith he dwelt (v9)
By faith Abraham...offered up Isaac (v17)
By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau (v20)
By faith Moses...was hidden (v23)
By faith Moses...refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter (v24)
By faith he forsook Egypt (v27)
By faith he kept the Passover (v28)
By faith they passed through the Red Sea (v29)
By faith the walls of Jericho fell down (v30)
By faith the harlot Rahab did not perish with those who did not believe, when she had received the spies with peace. (v31)
who through faith subdued kingdoms, worked righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions,(v33)

Each one of these had action associated with it. In fact, action was REQUIRED. Yes, these are old testament examples, but God gives us these examples and says without this type of faith, you can't be pleasing to Him (Heb 11:6)

Anyone, please explain to me how any of these were done by belief alone.

Yet, when one makes a statement that baptism is by faith, others will accuse them of trying to add works to their faith.

From Heb 11, we can see that biblical faith is doing what God said, not just believing what God said.

Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord.(Gen 6:8)

That grace provided instructions on how to escape the impending destruction (Gen 6:13-21)

Noah did all that God commanded (Gen 6:22)

The bible calls that faith (Heb 11:7).

So, Noah prepared an ark by faith for the saving of his household. You see how Noah was saved by grace though faith. Was any action required on Noah's part? Did Noah "earn" his saving? Was Noah and his family saved from the destruction by "faith only" or by faith?

Noah's physical deliverance is a type of our spiritual deliverance. We have a type and an antitype.

I Pet 3:20-21 "who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,"

God's grace provides us instruction (Titus 2:11-12)

One of those instructions is to be baptized for the remission of our sins (Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16).

When we do all that God has commanded, that is biblical faith. It does not earn me anything, therefore I cannot boast. I do not earn any part of my salvation, it is truly a gift from God. Jericho was also a gift from God (Joshua 6:2), but action was still required for them to obtain that gift. Yet even with that action, the Hebrew writer says, "By faith, the walls of Jerciho fell".

Therefore, "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast." - Eph 2:8-9

Now it is easy to understand, "For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ." - Gal 3:26-27

How wonderful!

 

[Matt Black]

Originally posted by donnA:
When you add works to faith, you change the gospel, and are preaching ' a different gospel' that is to be rejected as untrue according to scripture. God told us how He saces, and thats how He does it, works are not part of it. It's His way or not at all.

But how does that negate the salvation and relationship with Jesus that comes from that faith? That's also the question Mike (D28Guy) still hasn't answered...

 

[Jim1999]

By grace are ye saved through faith.....We tend to mix the orderly garden of theology with the practical field of the gospel, and so we employ terminology which has a very loose meaning.

Fallen man does not have the ability to even think religion, let alone employ faith he does not have. Escept grace be given by God, the faith is non-existant. Hence, if he has faith to believe, it does not matter one iota what, in his mind, he adds to the equation. My grace is sufficient, God says. The faith is the "gift" of God, part of the action which follows "grace".

You tell me about your faith, and I will show you my faith by my works. In man's plan of things, one accompanies the other. It is not a cause, but a result. Result of what? Grace.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Eliyahu]

In my experience, the people who claim the salvation by faith+works are NOT SAVED.

On the other hand, even among the people who claim that they are saved by faith ( normally deciding to attend the church is regarded as faith by such people) but has no starting point of the life change are dubious in their salvation.

If there is no change of life in such people, they should re-experience the Being Born Again.

Such people think that the human decision making is coming of Holy Spirit.

If anyone is born again, it is quite normal that the behavior and life style are changed after being born again.
This means that neither Works nor Faith+Works are pre-requisite for Salvation, but the Works are the result of faith after Salvation.

We must distinguish between Root (Faith) and Fruits (Works).

 

[mman]

Originally posted by Jim1999:
By grace are ye saved through faith.....We tend to mix the orderly garden of theology with the practical field of the gospel, and so we employ terminology which has a very loose meaning.

Fallen man does not have the ability to even think religion, let alone employ faith he does not have. Escept grace be given by God, the faith is non-existant. Hence, if he has faith to believe, it does not matter one iota what, in his mind, he adds to the equation. My grace is sufficient, God says. The faith is the "gift" of God, part of the action which follows "grace".

You tell me about your faith, and I will show you my faith by my works. In man's plan of things, one accompanies the other. It is not a cause, but a result. Result of what? Grace.

Cheers,

Jim

The source of faith is God's word (Rom 10:17). God's grace that bring's salvation is given to all men, yet not all men are saved (Titus 2:11-12). In fact, most men are lost (Matt 7:13-14).

God does not want anyone to be lost (II Pet 3:9). If God gives saving faith, as you claim, why then are most men lost?

The source of all faith is God's word. When we read and understand God's word and believe what it says, we will comply with the instructions contained therein. When we do, the bible calls it faith (See above discussion on Heb 11).

Salvation is the gift of God, not faith that comes from His word.

 

[mman]

Originally posted by Eliyahu:
We must distinguish between Root (Faith) and Fruits (Works).

Please help me make that distinction. The bible says, "By faith, the walls of Jericho fell" - Heb 11:30

The bible doesn't make a distinction, so why do you want to?

Belief plus action equals faith. Read Heb 11 if you doubt this. Belief alone is dead (James 2). Even the demons believe. The rulers in John 12:42 believed, but they had no action. They did not have pleasing biblical faith (Heb 11), they only had belief.

 

[donnA]

Originally posted by mman:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by donnA:
When you add works to faith, you change the gospel, and are preaching ' a different gospel' that is to be rejected as untrue according to scripture. God told us how He saces, and thats how He does it, works are not part of it. It's His way or not at all.

Actually, when you take works out of faith, you change it.

Faith includes works, else it is dead and useless according to James.

The bible says the walls of Jericho fell by faith. Use your definition of faith and explain that to me. -- Thanks </font>[/QUOTE]Your verses are talking about faith and works after salvation, not for salvation. You can not owrk to earn salvation.

 

[Eliyahu]

If anyone is truly born again, it is quite natural that the fruits are shown, which is the point of the Epistle James.

Even when we work for the Lord after Salvation, we still work on the faith! Any work without faith is meaningless. If we work by faith, then the result will be good as we read about Jericho.

Works and Fruits are the result of Faith and in that case, they were shown AFTER SALVATION which was achieved by FAITH ALONE ( SOLA FIDE).
Any work or fruits which are not grounded on FAITH are useless.

 

[Tazman]

Originally posted by donnA:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by mman:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by donnA:
When you add works to faith, you change the gospel, and are preaching ' a different gospel' that is to be rejected as untrue according to scripture. God told us how He saces, and thats how He does it, works are not part of it. It's His way or not at all.

Actually, when you take works out of faith, you change it.

Faith includes works, else it is dead and useless according to James.

The bible says the walls of Jericho fell by faith. Use your definition of faith and explain that to me. -- Thanks </font>[/QUOTE]Your verses are talking about faith and works after salvation, not for salvation. You can not owrk to earn salvation. </font>[/QUOTE]We are called to one Faith, not two. The point is Faith and obedience go are one in the same. PERIOD.

No one is accepted by Jesus with Truth, Faith, repentance, confession, baptism.

 

[donnA]

Originally posted by Tazman:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by donnA:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by mman:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by donnA:
When you add works to faith, you change the gospel, and are preaching ' a different gospel' that is to be rejected as untrue according to scripture. God told us how He saces, and thats how He does it, works are not part of it. It's His way or not at all.

Actually, when you take works out of faith, you change it.

Faith includes works, else it is dead and useless according to James.

The bible says the walls of Jericho fell by faith. Use your definition of faith and explain that to me. -- Thanks </font>[/QUOTE]Your verses are talking about faith and works after salvation, not for salvation. You can not owrk to earn salvation. </font>[/QUOTE]We are called to one Faith, not two. The point is Faith and obedience go are one in the same. PERIOD.

No one is accepted by Jesus with Truth, Faith, repentance, confession, baptism. </font>[/QUOTE]Not only are you putting words into my mouth but God's too it seems.
Works are a part of our lives after salvation, they are not part of salvation.
Eliyiah said:

If anyone is truly born again, it is quite natural that the fruits are shown, which is the point of the Epistle James.

Even when we work for the Lord after Salvation, we still work on the faith! Any work without faith is meaningless. If we work by faith, then the result will be good as we read about Jericho.

Works and Fruits are the result of Faith and in that case, they were shown AFTER SALVATION which was achieved by FAITH ALONE ( SOLA FIDE).
Any work or fruits which are not grounded on FAITH are useless.

 

[mman]

Originally posted by Eliyahu:
If anyone is truly born again, it is quite natural that the fruits are shown, which is the point of the Epistle James.

Even when we work for the Lord after Salvation, we still work on the faith! Any work without faith is meaningless. If we work by faith, then the result will be good as we read about Jericho.

Works and Fruits are the result of Faith and in that case, they were shown AFTER SALVATION which was achieved by FAITH ALONE ( SOLA FIDE).
Any work or fruits which are not grounded on FAITH are useless.

The walls of Jericho fell by faith, not by works.

Faith is belief plus action according to Heb 11.

Faith is not belief alone.

Belief alone does not save and I can prove it through the scriptures.

Example 1) - Peter preached on the day of Pentecost in Acts 2. Some believed his message and were cut to the heart.

If they did not believe his message, they would have gone about their business, paying no further attention to the apostles.

Here we have believers. They asked, "What must we do?

What would your answer be? You don't have to do anything? Only believe? Accept Jesus as you Lord and Savior? Am I close????

What was Peter's answer? Repent and be baptized for the remission of your sins (v38). Why were they told to do anything if belief alone is sufficient? Did Peter get it wrong, but you have it right?

Here we clearly have believers who needed the remission of sins, and Peter told them what they needed to do, that is a fact. Whether you believe it or reject it does not change the recorded truth.


Here is another example, even though one is sufficient to prove the point.

Acts 9:6 So he, trembling and astonished, said, “Lord, what do You want me to do?”
Then the Lord said to him, “Arise and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.”

Did Saul believe in Jesus? Yes and not only that but recognized him as Lord. Jesus Himself told Saul that there were some things he MUST DO. Now was Jesus mistaken? Saul didn't really have to do anything, did he???

Do you know what the very first thing Paul was told do? If you read all the accounts, you can figure it out without any problem.

He was told to receive his sight, but he didn't "do" anything. So he has not been told to do anything yet. By the way, Saul had been praying for 3 days while he was without sight.

Ok, here is the first instruction for Paul to do something. It is found in Acts 22:16, "And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord."

The first instruction to this believer is to arise and be baptized? Yes. That is the first thing he was told to do.

Here we have a believer who has been praying for 3 days who needs his sins to be washed away.

Paul would later write, "For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ." - Gal 3:26-27

He was a child of God by faith, because he had been baptized.

Surely nobody here thinks that salvation can be found outside of Christ, do they? (II Tim 2:10).

So, if salvation is in Christ, how do we get INTO Christ, according to the scriptures? Do a search on "into Christ" and see what you find out.

 

[D28guy]

"Belief plus action equals faith."

Bzzzzzt.

Wrong.

Faith plus Jesus equals fruit.

Mike

 

[D28guy]

"Have you not read, "For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ." - Gal 3:26-27"

There is more than one baptism identified in the scriptures. John the Baptist said...

"I indeed baptise with water. There is one coming who is mightier than I, whos sandal straps I am not worthy to loosen. He will baptise with the Holy Spirit and with fire."

When one enters in a relationship with the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ...through faith alone, there is no other way...they are Spirit baptised into Christ. They are "sealed for the day of redemption" at that point.

Thats why the scriptures tell us that "as they heard the message"...faith alone...Cornelius and His family were born again and secured in Christs body.

After that they were water baptised, as s "picture" of the Spirit baptism that had already taken place...

"Who can forbid water, that these should be baptised, in that they have recieved the Holy Spirit as we have?"

Cornelius and his family are just one of the many scriptural examples of people who were identified as being born again through faith alone.

Cornelius
The thief on the cross
The publican in the temple
Paul the Apostle

etc etc etc...

Grace and peace,

Mike

 

[Jim1999]

I have faith that the bridge I cross will not collapse, but that faith does not save me in a redeeming sense.

Many words in scripture have dual meanings, including the word used for baptism. Salvation is by grace alone. Faith is an attribute of grace and not a redeeming factor. Faith is the vehicle, from man's part, and not the redeeming factor. Other attributes of redeeming grace inludes works, witnessing and growth in the faith once delivered to the saints.

This is the same reason I do not like the term "once saved, always saved." Whilst it is true in fact, it leaves a huge misunderstanding of what redeeming grace is, and misplaces the act of sanctification, man's responsibility after grace is applied through faith.

Keep theology where it belongs in logical sequence.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by mman:
The walls of Jericho fell by faith, not by works.

Faith is belief plus action according to Heb 11.

Faith is not belief alone.

Not according to the dictionary, and not according to the Bible. Why do you use O.T. examples out of context. Israel was a saved nation. They were God's chosen people. Their act of walking around the walls of Jericho can only be likened to an act of obedience in the Christian walk and nothing more. If they had disobeyed they in no way would lose their salvation spiritually only their lives physically. They would have been defeated by the Caannanites. Your examples are taken entirely out of context.

Belief alone does not save and I can prove it through the scriptures.

Example 1) - Peter preached on the day of Pentecost in Acts 2. Some believed his message and were cut to the heart.

That means they were convicted of the Holy Spirit, a work of God and not of man, and consequently were saved ( work of God and not of man). They believed and were saved, by faith and faith alone. Baptism had nothing to do with it. Works had nothing to do with it.

If they did not believe his message, they would have gone about their business, paying no further attention to the apostles.

3,000 got saved; many others did not. Many others did go about their business and paid no further attention to the apostles.

Here we have believers. They asked, "What must we do?

What would your answer be? You don't have to do anything? Only believe? Accept Jesus as you Lord and Savior? Am I close????

You are as far away as a an elephant in the antarctic. If they were believers why would they be asking how to be saved?

What was Peter's answer? Repent and be baptized for the remission of your sins (v38). Why were they told to do anything if belief alone is sufficient? Did Peter get it wrong, but you have it right?

Here we clearly have believers who needed the remission of sins, and Peter told them what they needed to do, that is a fact. Whether you believe it or reject it does not change the recorded truth.

Changing the definition of faith and repentance according to the dictates of COC doctrine does not help your case any. Like any cult and neo-orhtodoxy, changing the meaning of theological terms only confuses the issues. COC defines faith as a work, repentance as a work, and completely separate from faith, which is theologically unsound. The misinterpretation of Acts 2:38 according to COC doctrine also does you no good. Baptism is never a condition of salvation.
There are a number of reasons the verse is worded this way. First of all Peter was speaking to an audience that was entirely Jewish. Like John the Baptist, baptism was a sign of their repentance, all the time. John would not accept their baptism until they had showed proof of repentance. The same Greek word "eis" is used in both cases: Here in Acts 2:38 and also in Mat. 3:11, John said:
"I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance."
The words "unto" and "for" are the same Greek word "eis." John baptized on the basis of their repentance; and so did Peter.

Here is another example, even though one is sufficient to prove the point.

Acts 9:6 So he, trembling and astonished, said, “Lord, what do You want me to do?”
Then the Lord said to him, “Arise and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.”

Did Saul believe in Jesus? Yes and not only that but recognized him as Lord. Jesus Himself told Saul that there were some things he MUST DO. Now was Jesus mistaken? Saul didn't really have to do anything, did he???

Nope, all he had to do was believe. And that is all he did. The passage is clear on that. What is your problem?

Do you know what the very first thing Paul was told do? If you read all the accounts, you can figure it out without any problem.

He was told to receive his sight, but he didn't "do" anything. So he has not been told to do anything yet. By the way, Saul had been praying for 3 days while he was without sight.

Ok, here is the first instruction for Paul to do something. It is found in Acts 22:16, "And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord."

The first instruction to this believer is to arise and be baptized? Yes. That is the first thing he was told to do.

Here we have a believer who has been praying for 3 days who needs his sins to be washed away.

A better translation would be "his sins having been washed away." He was already saved. Every thing that he did was after salvation in obedience to the Lord. It had nothing to do with his salvation, which was by faith and faith alone.

Paul would later write, "For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ." - Gal 3:26-27

How do you miss the obvious?
you are all sons of God through faith (alone) in Christ Jesus. That is as far as you need to read. The baptism referred to here has nothing to do with water baptism. I was baptized into Christ at the time of salvation. There is no water baptism here. Paul mentions that we are saved by faith; it is by faith and faith alone. If anything this strenghtens are position, not weakens it.

He was a child of God by faith, because he had been baptized.

[/quote}
Nowhere does the Bible say that; it is just your imagination.

Surely nobody here thinks that salvation can be found outside of Christ, do they? (II Tim 2:10).

Nope! That is precisely the reason that it is not found in baptism. That would be heresy.

So, if salvation is in Christ, how do we get INTO Christ, according to the scriptures? Do a search on "into Christ" and see what you find out.

We find that we get "in Christ" by trusting him "by faith."

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
DHK

 

[Matt Black]

Originally posted by Jim1999:
I have faith that the bridge I cross will not collapse, but that faith does not save me in a redeeming sense.

Many words in scripture have dual meanings, including the word used for baptism. Salvation is by grace alone. Faith is an attribute of grace and not a redeeming factor. Faith is the vehicle, from man's part, and not the redeeming factor. Other attributes of redeeming grace inludes works, witnessing and growth in the faith once delivered to the saints.

This is the same reason I do not like the term "once saved, always saved." Whilst it is true in fact, it leaves a huge misunderstanding of what redeeming grace is, and misplaces the act of sanctification, man's responsibility after grace is applied through faith.

Keep theology where it belongs in logical sequence.

Cheers,

Jim

Sensible and true words, Jim, as usual.

 

[mman]

Originally posted by D28guy:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />"Have you not read, "For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ." - Gal 3:26-27"

There is more than one baptism identified in the scriptures. John the Baptist said...

"I indeed baptise with water. There is one coming who is mightier than I, whos sandal straps I am not worthy to loosen. He will baptise with the Holy Spirit and with fire."

When one enters in a relationship with the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ...through faith alone, there is no other way...they are Spirit baptised into Christ. They are "sealed for the day of redemption" at that point.

Thats why the scriptures tell us that "as they heard the message"...faith alone...Cornelius and His family were born again and secured in Christs body.

After that they were water baptised, as s "picture" of the Spirit baptism that had already taken place...

"Who can forbid water, that these should be baptised, in that they have recieved the Holy Spirit as we have?"

Cornelius and his family are just one of the many scriptural examples of people who were identified as being born again through faith alone.

Cornelius
The thief on the cross
The publican in the temple
Paul the Apostle

etc etc etc...

Grace and peace,

Mike </font>[/QUOTE]There have been several baptism in scripture, but today there is only one (Eph 4:5).

You must accept one and reject the rest.

As for Cornelius, look at Acts 10:6, he was to send for Peter and "He will tell you what you must do."

What he must do?

Then when it is retold in Acts 11:13-15, "And he told us how he had seen an angel standing in his house, who said to him, ‘Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon whose surname is Peter, who will tell you words by which you and all your household will be saved.’ 15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them, as upon us at the beginning.

If you put the two accounts together, you can easily see that Peter was going to tell him what he must do to be saved.

The Holy Spirit fell on Cornelius as Peter began to speak, therefore, Peter could not have told him to do anything yet. Peter was going to speak to him and his household give them words by which they could be saved.

You think they were saved because the Holy Spirit fell on them. That would be a direct contradiction to the statements,"He will tell you what you must do." and "will tell you words by which you and all your household will be saved".

In fact, if you read the entire accounts, here is the only thing I can find where Cornelius was told to do anything, "And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.(Acts 10:48)

Obviously, this was baptism in water.

Again, today there is only one baptism according to Eph 4:5. Which is it? Baptism in water or baptism with the Holy Spirit?

The baptism with the Holy Spirit was a promise from Jesus, something He would do.

Matt 28:18-20 gives the Apostles instruction to teach, baptize and teach. Those who were baptized were to continue this pattern to go teach, baptize and teach. That is something that applies to us today, because it is a loop that never ends.

Can we baptize people with the Holy Spirit? I can't, can you? I don't think so. Can you baptize others in water? Of course you can, therefore, water baptism is for us today.

There is just one baptism today (Eph 4:5), even though many people claim that there are more, I believe the inspired apostle. One Baptism

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by mman:

There is just one baptism today (Eph 4:5), even though many people claim that there are more, I believe the inspired apostle. One Baptism

Jesus said to the thief on the cross (he who was not baptized) "Today thou shalt be with me in Paradise." Christ died for his sins as well. The one baptism obviously is when a person is baptized into Christ at the point of salvation when he puts his faith in Christ and is saved. I was saved when I trusted Christ as my Saviour; when I believed on him. I was not baptized until two years later. Would I have perished in Hell if I had died in those intervening two years? Yes or no?
DHK

 

[D28guy]

mman,

"As for Cornelius, look at Acts 10:6, he was to send for Peter and "He will tell you what you must do."

What he must do?"

And as the gospel was proclaimed Cornelius was told what he must do.

Enter into a saving relationship with Christ through faith alone. And according to the scriptures he recieved the Holy Spirit and was sealed into the body of Christ while sitting there doing no good works.

Then...after being born again and sealed into the body of Christ through faith alone, he was water baptised.

God bless,

Mike

 

[mman]

Originally posted by DHK:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by mman:
The walls of Jericho fell by faith, not by works.

Faith is belief plus action according to Heb 11.

Faith is not belief alone.

Not according to the dictionary, and not according to the Bible. Why do you use O.T. examples out of context. Israel was a saved nation. They were God's chosen people. Their act of walking around the walls of Jericho can only be likened to an act of obedience in the Christian walk and nothing more. If they had disobeyed they in no way would lose their salvation spiritually only their lives physically. They would have been defeated by the Caannanites. Your examples are taken entirely out of context.</font>[/QUOTE]Why do I use OT examples? I didn't use them, God did. He used them in Heb 11. The last time I checked, Hebrews was in the New Testament.

You're still going to the dictionary to define faith. Why don't you let God do that.

Please use your definition of faith and show how the walls of Jericho fell by faith.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Belief alone does not save and I can prove it through the scriptures.

Example 1) - Peter preached on the day of Pentecost in Acts 2. Some believed his message and were cut to the heart.

That means they were convicted of the Holy Spirit, a work of God and not of man, and consequently were saved ( work of God and not of man). They believed and were saved, by faith and faith alone. Baptism had nothing to do with it. Works had nothing to do with it.</font>[/QUOTE]So, are you saying they were saved before they repented?

What a strange thing for Peter to say when they asked what they must do, if you are correct.

If you had been standing there, would you have corrected Peter when he told them to "repent and be baptized for the remission of sins"?

If you would read the scripture and accept it for what is says, you wouldn't have to twist and deny these clear passages.

If you were reading this for the first time without prior teaching, what would your conclusion be when they asked Peter, "What must we do?" and Peter replied "Repent and be baptized for the remission of sins"? do you honestly think you would make your same statements?

If you read, "He that beliveth and is baptized shall be saved" for the first time, without any prior teaching, what would be your conclusion.

If you read these two passages together, what would be your conclusion?

Accept it for what is says and you don't have to twist anything.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />If they did not believe his message, they would have gone about their business, paying no further attention to the apostles.

3,000 got saved; many others did not. Many others did go about their business and paid no further attention to the apostles.</font>[/QUOTE]agree, but how do you know it was 3000? Maybe more believed and put off baptism for 2 weeks or maybe even 3 years?????

If baptism is of no importance concerning salvation, it's odd that they would go to the trouble of baptizing all 3000 of them the same day.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Here we have believers. They asked, "What must we do?

What would your answer be? You don't have to do anything? Only believe? Accept Jesus as you Lord and Savior? Am I close????

You are as far away as a an elephant in the antarctic. If they were believers why would they be asking how to be saved? </font>[/QUOTE]Did you actually read what you were writing? You admited they were believers, yet they did indeed ask the question. If they were not believers, they would have gone about their business, as many of them no doubt did.

When they did ask the question, Peter gave them an answer, which is different than any answer I've ever read from you.

What was Peter's answer? Repent and be baptized for the remission of your sins (v38). Why were they told to do anything if belief alone is sufficient? Did Peter get it wrong, but you have it right?[

Well did he??? Did Peter give them a wrong answer, but you have the right answer?

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Here we clearly have believers who needed the remission of sins, and Peter told them what they needed to do, that is a fact. Whether you believe it or reject it does not change the recorded truth.

Changing the definition of faith and repentance according to the dictates of COC doctrine does not help your case any. Like any cult and neo-orhtodoxy, changing the meaning of theological terms only confuses the issues. COC defines faith as a work, repentance as a work, and completely separate from faith, which is theologically unsound. The misinterpretation of Acts 2:38 according to COC doctrine also does you no good. Baptism is never a condition of salvation.
There are a number of reasons the verse is worded this way. First of all Peter was speaking to an audience that was entirely Jewish. Like John the Baptist, baptism was a sign of their repentance, all the time. John would not accept their baptism until they had showed proof of repentance. The same Greek word "eis" is used in both cases: Here in Acts 2:38 and also in Mat. 3:11, John said:
"I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance."
The words "unto" and "for" are the same Greek word "eis." John baptized on the basis of their repentance; and so did Peter.</font>[/QUOTE]Do you try to belittle and sterotype in an unveiled and unsuccessful attempt to intimidate?

Nevertheless, the term eis is found some 1,750 times in the Greek New Testament, and it is never translated ‘because of’ in the common versions .... The standard Greek lexicons do not view eis as meaning ‘because of’ in Acts 2:38.

Please provide even one reputable translation that support this outlandish claim.

In fact, your argument can also be applied to Matt 26:28 and by your twisted logic, you have Jesus blood being shed because people's sins were already forgiven. You can't have it both ways.

There is nothing in the text that would suggest that the meaning is any different in Matt 26:28 and in Acts 2:38. The only difference is that you want it to mean one thing in Matt 26:28 and something totally opposite in Acts 2:38, even though it is the same phrase!!!

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Here is another example, even though one is sufficient to prove the point.

Acts 9:6 So he, trembling and astonished, said, “Lord, what do You want me to do?”
Then the Lord said to him, “Arise and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.”

Did Saul believe in Jesus? Yes and not only that but recognized him as Lord. Jesus Himself told Saul that there were some things he MUST DO. Now was Jesus mistaken? Saul didn't really have to do anything, did he???[/qb]

Nope, all he had to do was believe. And that is all he did. The passage is clear on that. What is your problem?</font>[/QUOTE]Your problem is that he already believed but Jesus told him to go into the city and it would be told to him what he MUST do. If his sins were already washed away, Acts 22:16 doesn't make much sense. Ananias must have been lying to Saul. No, I believe God's word.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Do you know what the very first thing Paul was told do? If you read all the accounts, you can figure it out without any problem.

He was told to receive his sight, but he didn't "do" anything. So he has not been told to do anything yet. By the way, Saul had been praying for 3 days while he was without sight.

Ok, here is the first instruction for Paul to do something. It is found in Acts 22:16, "And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord."

The first instruction to this believer is to arise and be baptized? Yes. That is the first thing he was told to do.

Here we have a believer who has been praying for 3 days who needs his sins to be washed away.[/qb]

A better translation would be "his sins having been washed away." He was already saved. Every thing that he did was after salvation in obedience to the Lord. It had nothing to do with his salvation, which was by faith and faith alone. </font>[/QUOTE]Well, find me a translation that states it that way. Why don't you just make your own translation and change all these mistakes that the other Greek scholars have made.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Paul would later write, "For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ." - Gal 3:26-27[/qb]

How do you miss the obvious?
you are all sons of God through faith (alone) in Christ Jesus. That is as far as you need to read. The baptism referred to here has nothing to do with water baptism. I was baptized into Christ at the time of salvation. There is no water baptism here. Paul mentions that we are saved by faith; it is by faith and faith alone. If anything this strenghtens are position, not weakens it. </font>[/QUOTE]That's a novel approach. Don't read verse 27 because verse 26 is important. What! When you make your own translation, you can just omit verse 27.

What in the verse makes you think that this baptism is not to be understood in it usual meaning? You teach 2 baptisms, the bible says there is only one (Eph 4:5)

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />He was a child of God by faith, because he had been baptized. [/quote}
Nowhere does the Bible say that; it is just your imagination.

Ok you can read verses 26 and 27 together and see that.

Surely nobody here thinks that salvation can be found outside of Christ, do they? (II Tim 2:10).

Nope! That is precisely the reason that it is not found in baptism. That would be heresy.</font>

You are not making sense. Re-read Gal 3:26 and 27 and see how one gets into Christ.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />So, if salvation is in Christ, how do we get INTO Christ, according to the scriptures? Do a search on "into Christ" and see what you find out.

We find that we get "in Christ" by trusting him "by faith."</font>[/QUOTE]Where is that verse again?

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
DHK

So you use a passage that does not tell us how to get into Christ as the "how to" verse yet ignore verses that directly speak to the subject??? Keep searching.