Why does faith+works=not saved?

[Claudia_T]

by the way, when it says in Revelation 14
that God's people will keep the commandments OF GOD... that means God's commandments, not men's commandments ...(sunday sabbath verses God's sabbath)


and when it says they will also have "the faith of Jesus" ... notice it just doesnt say they have fait, but instead the faith OF JESUS.. that is the faith Jesus had by which he overcame all sin.


Rv 14:
11: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
12: Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

true faith, not the kind of faith that doesnt work.and we must work by love, not by selfish motivation. Just like Jesus. If you love Me, He said, keep My commandments.

Gal:5:6: For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

1Cor:7:19: Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

 

[Dustin]

Again, Read Romans chapter 14, just the whole thing.

 

[Hope of Glory]

Originally posted by Matt Black:
But what would you say about someone who is actively resisting that work of the Holy Spirit?

That would be called "lawlessness" (iniquity), and the Bible deals with that. But, you don't lose your spiritual salvation over that, and there's no place in the Bible that says you do. Only the traditions of man say that you do.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Claudia_T:
DHK

that makes no sense at all

James didnt go through that whole thing just to hear himself talk

The Bible doesn't contradict itself.
Can we agree on that much?

Romans 4:1-5 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

The Scripture is very clear here, is it not? How can there be any question that there are no works involved in salvation. It is completely of grace to be received by faith and faith alone. That is what the Scriptures teach. We cannot argue with God on this issue. If you are not convinced yet, I suggest you study these passages in more detail.

James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

First, don't pull Scripture out of their context to make them your own little proof texts in order to prop up your theology all the while ignoring the context surrounding the passage. The Book of James (yes the entire book) is speaking of practical Christianity, that is, living the Christian life on a day to day basis. James is writing to believers. Almost every chapter mentions "my brethren." He is not presenting salvation to his brethren here. The key verse of this particular passage is:

James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

James was explaining that a true believer, that is one who has already been saved, will have works as a fruit of his salvation. Thus he says: "I will show you my faith by my works. The works always follow the new birth, the conversion, one's salvation. They are never part of it. And that is the emphasis in this chapter in James.

The Bible never contradicts itself. And it doesn't here either.
DHK

 

[Hope of Glory]

James is writing to believers.

If people would realize that (as well as most of the rest of the Bible), there would be much less confusion.

 

[D28guy]

Matt,

You asked...

"But what would you say about someone who is actively resisting that work of the Holy Spirit?"

Dustin beat me to it, when he said...

"Then they will be chastened, with the severity being up to the Lord."

Exactly.

From the 12th chapter of Hebrews...

"5 And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons: "My son, do not despise the chastening of the Lord, Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him;

6 For whom the Lord loves He chastens, And scourges every son whom He receives."

7 If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten?

8 But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons.

9 Furthermore, we have had human fathers who corrected us, and we paid them respect. Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live?

10 For they indeed for a few days chastened us as seemed best to them, but He for our profit, that we may be partakers of His holiness.

11 Now no chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but painful; nevertheless, afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it."

Matt, regarding our earlier situation of a brand new child of God who turns around and goes right back to the bars, when someone is born again they become a new person. A "babe in Christ" has come to be. If you are a parent do you expect mature and/or perfect behavior from your child when it is a new born infant? Or, are you perfectly understanding if your baby just lays there and drools on itself?

In most cases I have been involved with the new born child of God is usually aware that many things in their lifestyle shouldnt be there. And some of those things could be turned from right away. It may take time for others. It may take MORE time for others. It might take a loooong time for others. We are all "works in progress."

Now, with this statement...

"But what would you say about someone who is actively resisting that work of the Holy Spirit?"

...you seem to be bringing up a different situation. A mature christian who is actively resisting the Holy Spirits promptings regarding growth. In that case Dustins response, with the scriptures I've shared, are an adequate response. God is a very good Father to His children, and just like our earthly parents He will chastise us as necesarry.

God bless,

Mike

 

[Matt Black]

Originally posted by DHK:
James was explaining that a true believer, that is one who has already been saved, will have works as a fruit of his salvation. Thus he says: "I will show you my faith by my works. The works always follow the new birth, the conversion, one's salvation. They are never part of it. And that is the emphasis in this chapter in James.

Ok, but what if my 'works' are to engage in drunkeness, orgies and general licentiousness?

 

[D28guy]

Matt,

DHK said...

"James was explaining that a true believer, that is one who has already been saved, will have works as a fruit of his salvation. Thus he says: "I will show you my faith by my works. The works always follow the new birth, the conversion, one's salvation. They are never part of it. And that is the emphasis in this chapter in James."

And you said...

"Ok, but what if my 'works' are to engage in drunkeness, orgies and general licentiousness?"

Those are identified in the scriptures as being works "of the flesh".

Not the "fruit of the Spirit".

Matt, it seems that you are struggling in a big way with this.

I would suggest you dive into...immerse yourself in...the books of Romans, Galaciens, Ephesians, Collosians, Phillipians and Hebrews. These are some of the books where New Covenant doctrine in presented in its fullness and in great depth. The contrast between the old covenant and new convenant is explained in depth, as is the contrast between Law and Grace, and finally the truth of justification through faith alone, and how that fits like a hand in a glove with the truth found in James.

This is exceedingly rich, rewarding and foundational truth that is being dealt with in these books. It is very important that we have a good grasp on these things.

Mike

 

[Matt Black]

Mike, I have engaged with those Pauline epistles, and I have found the following:-

I Cor 6:9-11 - those who engage in licentiousness will not inherit the Kingdom of God

Gal 5:19-21 - ditto

Eph 5:3-6 - ditto

According to those Scriptures, then, if my 'works' are as my last post suggests, then I cannot be saved.

 

[Hope of Glory]

Read what you posted will happen: Will not inherit the Kingdom of God. It's not talking about salvation, which is dependent upon the perfect work of the Lord Jesus. It's talking about your inheritance, and your inheritance will not be in the Kingdom.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Originally posted by Hope of Glory:
Read what you posted will happen: Will not inherit the Kingdom of God. It's not talking about salvation, which is dependent upon the perfect work of the Lord Jesus. It's talking about your inheritance, and your inheritance will not be in the Kingdom.

Salvation and inheriting the kingdom are 2 seperate things?

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Matt Black:
Mike, I have engaged with those Pauline epistles, and I have found the following:-

I Cor 6:9-11 - those who engage in licentiousness will not inherit the Kingdom of God

Gal 5:19-21 - ditto

Eph 5:3-6 - ditto

According to those Scriptures, then, if my 'works' are as my last post suggests, then I cannot be saved.

Instead of taking a portion of Scripture out of context look at what Paul is teaching in the entire context. This is what so many of you fail to do:

1 Corinthians 6:9-11 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

If you read through this epistle you will find that in chapter five, a man was committing incest (fornication) with his father's wife. In chapter 11 there were some that were drunk right before partaking of the Lord's Supper. In chapter 6 some of them were taking each other to court (no doubt under the category of stealing and extortion). All of the above sins were being committed by the "members" of this church which Paul addresses as saints (believers).
He says but now you are washed. You are sanctified, you are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Christ no longer looks on the sins we have commmitted. They are hidden under his blood. God looks down and sees me clothed in the righteousness of Jesus Christ. My sins have been paid for. I am redeemed by the precious blood of our Lord Jesus Christ.
DHK

 

[Hope of Glory]

Salvation and inheriting the kingdom are 2 seperate things?

Inheritance is a family matter; spiritual salvation (born from above) puts you into the family. If you're saved, you're in the family; just like a baby, you cannot be unborn. But, inheritance is another story.

Not everyone who is saved will get to enter the Kingdom.

 

[Eric B]

What you're saying sounds like an interesting way to answer that, but it also sounds like JW's (only the 144,000 go to Heaven, etc).
It seemed the right direction, but I would think it means losing rewards (the rewards being the "inheritance" rather than salvation being the inheritance), but then you have to substantiate the idea that one can lose so many rewards he is not in the Kingdom, but still in Heaven.

 

[Hope of Glory]

Read John 3:3 and 3:5. John 3:3 tells us that anyone who is born from above will see the Kingdom. John 3:5 follows that with doing something and getting to enter the Kingdom.

There are those who will be thrust into outer darkness. On and on. Perishing has to do with losing one's life in the coming age, not with losing one's spiritual salvation. It's the salvation of the soul.

Read the parables about the Kingdom: many people err and try to apply them to spiritual salvation. To do that, they have to accept contradictions, or "well, it obviously doesn't mean what it says". The Bible doesn't really say much about spiritual salvation, but it goes on at length about how we are to live our lives. It talks a lot about justification and little about salvation. (We are justified by our works; it's a process. Being saved is an event, and it's not by our works.) All of the parables concern types of saved people, not contrasting between the saved and the unsaved.

1 Corinthians 3:13-15 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

There are many who will be saved, but will have nothing to show for it. But, there are also many who are saved who actively live a life of lawlessness. (To say otherwise denies Scripture.) What about them? They will be chastized.

Remember, lawlessness has to do with doing what is right in one's own eyes. These are people who say, "I'm saved and I can't lose that, now let's party!" or "A loving God wouldn't really do that" or any of a number of other excuses for actively doing sin. We will have to give an account of our works of the flesh.

Some will be given rule over 10 cities, some over 5... What happens to the one who was not profitable? His pound was taken from him and given to the most profitable servant.

 

[Eric B]

"Thrust into "outer darkness sounds like damnation to me. No part of heaven could be described as "darkness", even if all of one's rewards were burned up.

 

[Hope of Glory]

The last time I checked, a lake of fire would not be very dark. That's a bit flippant, but let's look at it:

"outer darkness" appears only three times in Scripture, and all three are found in Matthew. Luke alludes to outer darkness in 13:28-29) but does not use the words. ("Outside".)

Both Matthew and Luke use the Greek word ekballo, which means to "cast out". Both give the place into which individuals in these passages are cast. In Matthew, the place is "into the darkness, the outer". In the Greek text there are definite articles before both the noun and adjective, pointing to a particular place of darkness outside a particular place of light. In Luke, the place is described as "without", or "on the outside".
The idea expressed by both Matthew and Luke locates this place immediately outside the region from which they are cast out. Both passages refer to the same place: a place of darkness on the outside.

The place from which they are cast out is a place of light. This is illustrated well in Matthew 22. "Outer darkness" is used to describe an area immediately outside a royal wedding party. Festivities such as this in the East would normally be held at night inside a lighted hall. On the outside there would be a darkened courtyard,. The location of this darkened courtyard in relation to the lighted banqueting hall would correspond perfectly to "the outer darkness". Someone cast there would be cast out of the light into the darkness. It's the same in relation to the Kingdom itself and positions of rulership. (cf. Matthew 8:11-12 and 25:14-30)

"Outer darkness" is one place immediately outside of another place. It is called "outer darkness" by way of contrast to the "inner light". Those who are cast out are removed from a sphere associated with light and placed outside in a sphere associated with darkness.

 

[Eric B]

"Dark" is a spiritual metaphor, for absence of [spiritual] light. You correctly showed this in your last sentence, but then once again, there is no part of Heaven that is spiritually dark!

Also, there is a big misconception regaring the attempt to set that scripture against the notion of hell fire. Fire itself is "light", but we all forget about the smoke which then darkens it. TV/Movie portrayals of fires helps cause this error, because they have to omit most of the smoke to show the action. Also, flames are visible on the outside of a burning building, because the smoke then can dissipate (and even then, you see the darkness mixed with the flame). But inside somewhere, it is pitch black, and you can be right next to the flames. They showed this in a documentary on fire once.

Also, I should add, that another way to understand all of these parables is in relation to the coming destruction of Jerusalem in AD70. I am still trying to fully understand the significance of this, but many of these passages become clearer when you understand them in that light After all, much of this was promised to "this[that] generation".

 

[Matt Black]

DHK, thanks for your answers which I will prayerfully consider, but I still have a problem with this apparent distinction some are making between salvation and the Kingdom of Heaven/God. The explanations given so far seem to me to smack of a kind of two-tier Heaven, which to me doesn't seem much different to the Catholic division into Heaven and Purgatory.

 

[steaver]

I have a brother who is caught up in this enemy confusion about outer darkness. Outer darkness is "out of the Kingdom"-but it is unsaved! There is no getting your spirit saved and then working to get your soul saved.

There are a couple of false teachings out there concerning this "salvation of the soul" topic. Watchman Lee is one of the confused and Arlen Chitwood has picked up the ball where Lee left off.

These false teachers try to seperate salvation into three parts, (spirit, soul, body). Everybody knows that the body will be "saved" through the ressurrection(or the rapture), but they teach that the spirit and soul are seperate salvations as well. Of course this is in dirrect contradiction to numerious passages of scripture.

This may be where much of this erronious doctrine has originated from. Bottom line is, either you are saved (ALL of you) or you are lost(ALL of you). Either you are in the Kingdom(saved) or you are left out(lost). There is no saved but after-life punishment, this would be no different than RCC purgatory. Both are false doctrines.

God Bless!