Why Does God Chasten His Children?

[Pastor_Bob]

...to what end does the Father chastise His children? Is it just because He can?

Consider the following passages:
Ps 94:12 Blessed is the man whom thou chastenest, O LORD, and teachest him out of thy law; (KJV)
Here, we see that the end of God's chastisement is to teach us. Just as we, as fathers, would lovingly teach our children what we expect (our law) from them. We do not discipline them for committing an act that they do not know is wrong; we teach them what is right and wrong. The very act of teaching can be viewed as chastisement. It is a serious time.

John 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. (KJV)
Here, we are told that chastisement (purging) is for our own fruitfulness. God never chastises simply because He can; His ways are far above our ways and His chastisement is always for our benefit.

What profit do we gain through patient submission to God's chastening?

Greater understanding of God's laws and increased fruitfulness would be two profitable gains.

We have established that this chastening is only for members of the family, what of a family member that faints or despises the chastening?

Then he/she refuses to be taught and has a disregard for fruitfulness. I believe they are headed toward the commission of "the sin unto death" as were Ananias and Sapphira.

 

[J. Jump]

I believe they are headed toward the commission of "the sin unto death" as were Ananias and Sapphira.

So at the point God took these two out of this life via death did they automatically become faithful and obedient, becuase they left this earth as unfaithful and disobedient.

 

[James_Newman]

Consider the following passages:
Ps 94:12 Blessed is the man whom thou chastenest, O LORD, and teachest him out of thy law; (KJV)
Here, we see that the end of God's chastisement is to teach us. Just as we, as fathers, would lovingly teach our children what we expect (our law) from them. We do not discipline them for committing an act that they do not know is wrong; we teach them what is right and wrong. The very act of teaching can be viewed as chastisement. It is a serious time.

John 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. (KJV)
Here, we are told that chastisement (purging) is for our own fruitfulness. God never chastises simply because He can; His ways are far above our ways and His chastisement is always for our benefit.


Greater understanding of God's laws and increased fruitfulness would be two profitable gains.

Agreed, God desires us to be fruitful.

Colossians 1:10 That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;

Luke 3:9 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

John 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

 

[Pastor_Bob]

...becuase they left this earth as unfaithful and disobedient.

As will most, if not all of us when we pass from this life.
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. (KJV)

So at the point God took these two out of this life via death did they automatically become faithful and obedient,

Of course they were "faithful and obedient" when they left this earth, assuming of course that they were saved. They had perfect knowledge when they stepped upon heaven's shore.
1 Cor 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. (KJV)

 

[James_Newman]

As will most, if not all of us when we pass from this life.
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. (KJV)


Of course they were "faithful and obedient" when they left this earth, assuming of course that they were saved. They had perfect knowledge when they stepped upon heaven's shore.
1 Cor 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. (KJV)

Do you believe OSAS Pastor_Bob? I do, but I want to make sure I understand your position.

 

[Pastor_Bob]

Do you believe OSAS Pastor_Bob? I do, but I want to make sure I understand your position.

Absolutely, I believe the Bible teaches OSAS, I call it "eternal security."

 

[James_Newman]

OK, so I'm a child of God, and I will never lose my eternal salvation. What if I kill myself?

 

[Pastor_Bob]

Then you are merely a very deceived child of God who has been duped by Satan into believing that your earthly troubles are too big for your heavenly Father to handle, and you have foolishy decided to take matters into your own hands and have demonstrated a severe lack of faith. Nevertheless, you are still saved.

 

[webdog]

Then you are merely a very deceived child of God who has been duped by Satan into believing that your earthly troubles are too big for your heavenly Father to handle, and you have foolishy decided to take matters into your own hands and have demonstrated a severe lack of faith. Nevertheless, you are still saved.

Excellent answer. :thumbs:

 

[James_Newman]

Then you are merely a very deceived child of God who has been duped by Satan into believing that your earthly troubles are too big for your heavenly Father to handle, and you have foolishy decided to take matters into your own hands and have demonstrated a severe lack of faith. Nevertheless, you are still saved.

Suppose I don't have any troubles, I just am weary of this world and I'm ready to go be with Jesus. It is a sin to commit suicide, but I'm willing rather to be absent from the body and present with the Lord. So I don't have anything to worry about, suicide is the one sin for which I will not reap what I have sown, right?

Would you suppose suicide to be murder of self? Will murderers inherit the kingdom of God?

 

[webdog]

James, can you tell me if you believe that there is a single believer who has died having confessed ALL of the sins they ever committed? With your reasoning, no believer will be in the kingdom.

 

[Pastor_Bob]

So I don't have anything to worry about, suicide is the one sin for which I will not reap what I have sown, right?

Think about what you have sown and that will certainly affirm that you will also reap. You have sown destruction to your earthly tabernacle, and you reap the loss of the years that God had given you to bring Him glory here on this earth. You lose your full potential for rewards at the Judgment Seat of Christ. (That is where this is going, isn't it?)

Would you suppose suicide to be murder of self? Will murderers inherit the kingdom of God?

I do not at all equate suicide with murder. As to who will inherit the kingdom of God:
Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. (KJV)

 

[James_Newman]

James, can you tell me if you believe that there is a single believer who has died having confessed ALL of the sins they ever committed? With your reasoning, no believer will be in the kingdom.

First you must realize that it is necessary to confess them, otherwise it wouldn't matter. To answer the question, no I doubt there is anyone who confessed every sin without fail. The only way anyone will enter the kingdom is through God's grace and mercy. But we cannot presume upon that mercy.

Matthew 5:7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.

Showing mercy to others is one way that we may obtain mercy at the judgment seat.

1 Peter 4:8 And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins.

Having charity is another way.

 

[James_Newman]

Think about what you have sown and that will certainly affirm that you will also reap. You have sown destruction to your earthly tabernacle, and you reap the loss of the years that God had given you to bring Him glory here on this earth. You lose your full potential for rewards at the Judgment Seat of Christ. (That is where this is going, isn't it?)


I do not at all equate suicide with murder. As to who will inherit the kingdom of God:
Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. (KJV)

Well whatever you take suicide for, it is a sin. I have never heard of reaping loss. Can a farmer plant corn and reap negative corn? He may suffer loss of what he would have reaped. But if we sow to the flesh, we are told that we will reap corruption.

Galatians 6:8-9
8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.

Can we agree that chastening in this life is to the purpose that we should have a full reward in the next? If we reap rewards in the next life, why should we not also reap corruption in the next if that be what we have sown?

 

[Hope of Glory]

I do not at all equate suicide with murder. As to who will inherit the kingdom of God:
Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. (KJV)

I don't think James is questioning about being saved. I think he's questioning about inheriting the Kingdom.

 

[J. Jump]

As will most, if not all of us when we pass from this life.
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. (KJV)

Okay Pastor Bob is the as will most your way of saying that everyone saved or otherwise is going to die disobedient and unfaithful? If not then who is the group that when they die will be considered faithful and obedient?

Do you consider yourself to be faithful and obedient? You quoted Paul. Was he faithful and obedient when he died?

Of course the flesh is disobedient and unfaithful because it is corrupted. But a saved individual has a new nature that battles the old nature. The Bible says we can be found obedient and faithful and having overcome the flesh, the world and Satan.

While I agree that the majority will die in disobedient and unfaithfulness (broad is the way that leads to destruction and many there be that find it and narrow is the way that leads to life and few there be that find it), there is a remnant just as there always is of faithful and obedient.

If we are faithful and obedient and overcoming then we will rule and reign with Christ. If however we are found to be disobedient, unfaithful and non-overcoming as in we walked by the flesh instead of walking by the Spirit then we will not rule and reign with Christ.

1 Cor 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

(KJV)

That passage doesn't address their faithfulness or obedience after the point of death.

I do not at all equate suicide with murder.

I don't see a limitation in Scripture of killing being that of one person to another.

As to who will inherit the kingdom of God:
Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. (KJV)

Exactly!! So what does that mean? Does that mean when we are made alive spiritually (saved) that we automatically inherit the kingdom of God? Well is it the name of the Lord (the King) that saves us? Or is it the death and shed blood of Jesus the Lamb of God Who died as our substitute?

It's the death and shed blood that saves, so calling on the name of the Lord is salvation for something else. And as you put it it is salvation for the kingdom.

So if we don't call on the name of the Lord we are not going to be saved for the kingdom.

 

[Pastor_Bob]

I have never heard of reaping loss.

1 Cor 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
(KJV)

Can a farmer plant corn and reap negative corn?

A farmer may plant corn, and then by his negligence or lack of labor he may destroy the very crop he planted.

Can we agree that chastening in this life is to the purpose that we should have a full reward in the next?

Absolutely.

If we reap rewards in the next life, why should we not also reap corruption in the next if that be what we have sown?

When we enter heaven, we are raised in incorruption. I believe you have misapplied the passage in Galatians 6. What we sow to the flesh will be reaped as wood, hay, and stubble. What we sow in the spirit will remain as gold, silver, and precious stones.

 

[Pastor_Bob]

Okay Pastor Bob...

I apologize, friend, but I cannot follow your reasoning here. You seem to ask a question and then answer it. I'm not sure what you are looking for from me.

 

[James_Newman]

When we enter heaven, we are raised in incorruption. I believe you have misapplied the passage in Galatians 6. What we sow to the flesh will be reaped as wood, hay, and stubble. What we sow in the spirit will remain as gold, silver, and precious stones.

I think we may be mixing metaphors here. Anyway, lets look at 1Corinthians 3.

1 Corinthians 3:12-17
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

A few questions I would ask are:
What day shall declare it?
What does it mean to be saved by fire?
Why do we arbitrarily cut off vss 16 and 17 from vs 15?

 

[Pastor_Bob]

A few questions I would ask are:
What day shall declare it?

The teaching is that everything we do for the Lord will be revealed for what it is actually made of. The day, in my opinion, is the day we stand at the Judgment Seat of Christ. (vs. 10 & Romans 14:10)

What does it mean to be saved by fire?

This would refer to someone who is saved, yet has no real regard for the work of God with the objective of giving God the glory. He serves God with selfish motives. His works will be burned up and he will be saved, not "by fire," but rather, "as by fire." In other words, he escaped eternal punishment by the slimmest of margins. He was "as a brand plucked from the fire."

Why do we arbitrarily cut off vss 16 and 17 from vs 15?

There is no continuation of the same thought from verse 15. Paul has moved on to another issue. Remember, when Paul wrote this letter, we didn't have chapters and verses like we do today. The mere fact that these verses follow, is no indication that they are connected. The context, not a preconceived idea, must govern our belief.