Why does one lose their salvation?

[Pipedude]

If this is where they err than the err is they believe the chose Christ before Christ shose them.

Pray, how many of your members believe differently? When I was growing up in SBC churches, I never heard of unconditional election. When two friends started showing me verses and tried to Calvinize me as a freshman in college, I was taking my old KJV off the shelf and muttering "That's not in my Bible..."

Once you establish unconditional election, the game is over. Suppose a verse said "Christians are almost completely secure, but if a Christian backslides and goes into sin, then he will lose his salvation" (Pipedudiah 2:1). If you have an election card up your sleeve, you can explain the verse by saying "Ah, but a true Christian cannot do that. One who does that obviously isn't elect. The verse speaks of nominal Christians."

Talk about security! The doctrine of OSAS becomes true analytically. It is unfalsifiable by its very definition.

But it's hard to Calvinize most people unless they come to respect highly someone who already holds to it. That's usually how everyone changes his theology.

 

[LeBuick]

Good points Pipedude, I'm no absolute Calvinist but this was well put.

 

[BCF Jeff]

Good points Pipedude, I'm no absolute Calvinist but this was well put.

I would have to say that I too, am not an absolute Calvinist. The I understand the tulip and the reasoning behind it but no one point is without flaw. I am more Calvinistic than Armenian but I don't think an absolute Calvinist would thik me a Calvinist.

When it come to osas I would use the illustration of adoption. Christ saved me knowing what kind af wretch I am. I am once and for all a child of God. That means that when I am a disobedient child God will discpline me not disown me.

Sometimes when my own children (girls ages 4&6) don't get their way they will say the don't love me anymore and that I'm unfair. I think some believers have these kind of temper tantrims fromtime to time. I don't think that God removes their names over temper tantrims. Also, I believe that sometimes God allows a believer to die (physically speaking) to prevent them from continuing in sin.

:wavey:

 

[npetreley]

Certain types of prescription drugs inhibit enzymes that cause "dry mouth", which is one reason. Oh, wait, you said salvation. Never mind.

​

 

[BCF Jeff]

Certain types of prescription drugs inhibit enzymes that cause "dry mouth", which is one reason. Oh, wait, you said salvation. Never mind.

​

:laugh: Very funny ha ha ha

 

[Salamander]

I have debated the suicide thing many times and will continue to debate it. Since the Bible tells us that 'a good tree cannot bear evil fruit', and we are likened to trees in many places in the Bible, and suicide is not a fruit unto righteousness, but of the devil... one who commits suicide cannot have been saved.

It is true one cannot lose one's salvation. But if one shows evil fruit without any sign of remorse or repentance, and never feels the chastening hand of God, we can let the Word of God judge that one as a person who never truly was of the household of faith.

Too many today wear the name 'Christian' and do not even know what it means, don't even live the life.

Excuse me? I may have entered this discussion a little late, but I cannot let your statements slide by.

I too, felt as you do at one point in time, BUT! When a dear preacher friend of mine, taking prescribed anti-depreessents for what was obviously an "all-out" attack from satan against him and his very effective ministry, he did commit suicide.
I agreee suicide is very wrong, but to say that one who does is not saved is placing onesself on the Judgement Seat.

You need to learn this. I also think you don't have the regard, not respect, for the devil as you should. he is a very powerful foe and can deceive the very elect and should never be taken it for granted that he cannot effect the mental capabilities of ANY Christrian to the point of suicide.

"Losing salvation"? IMPOSIBLE! It was never in our control to begin with! God has never lost any that were His. death, by any means, is only a vehicle to allow us to leave this walk of life to enter into eternity.


Does this mean losing salvation? NO! But it does mean we'll account for this at the Judgement Seat of Christ, which is not the Sunday School picnic too many Christians believe it is.

Now I will say this, in regards to a good tree bearing evil fruit, it cannot. Only a good tree bears good fruit, but the fruit is only "good" because of the fruit it is.

Good fruit is the works of righteousness done in us and through us, all to glorify our Father which is in heaven.

A person who has never given their heart to God cannot bear good fruit, it would then be fruit of selfrighteousness, which is filthy rags in the sight of God.raying: That all who read will understand.

raise: :Fish: raise:

 

[ccrobinson]

SFIC writes:

Paul ends Romans 7 showing that the flesh and the Spirit war against each other. Sometimes the flesh gives into temptations. I do not beleiive the true child of God will intentionally sin,

You have been maintaining that a Christian will not willfully and intentionally sin. I think it's preposterous.

And then you go and write that "... the flesh gives into temptations."

Gives in? Nobody accidentally gives in. Giving in is not done unintentionally. Giving in is something that you willfully do. Which means that giving in means to willfully sin, which means you've contradicted yourself here.

Would you care to try and explain this one away, or do you just want to avoid the question by comparing me to Satan again?

 

[BCF Jeff]

IF someone could lose their salvation then yes suicide would seem to disqualify someone. HOWEVER, you cannot lose salvation just as you can not gain salvation.

I often have to confront members of our church and other professing Christians in our community that envolved in sin. When I do I remind them of the Gospel I ask if they have sinced the Holy Spirit's conviction. Based on their answers I either sugguest they are lost and warn them of God's judgment or I will remind them of God discipline and encoragr them to get right before they experience it.

I've posted elsewhere and shall do it again, it is a shame that the Army of Christ shoots its wounded. When we start running around declaring that you've lost salvation every time someone messes up we are really telling the lost they have no hope unless they can become worthy of salvation.

We are either saved by grace through faith or saved by works. Either totally dependant upon God or partially dependant on our self.in this area its all or nothing. Works give evedence of salvation not conformation.

Let me stop before this rant goes to far.

 

[Bro Tony]

Intentionally? No. Accidentally? Yes.

Actually the opposite is true. The lost sin because it is their nature to do so, the Bible says they are in bondage to sin. The Bible says the believer has been set free from the bondage of sin, so for the believer to sin he/she must chose to do so. When Paul said he did what he did not want to do he was not claiming "accidental sin". He as a believer was severly convicted of his chose to sin and it broke his heart because he was a child of God. A genuine believer does not want to sin, but many time choses to do so, which is contrary to our new nature and we are convicted and heart broken over our choices, not our accidents.

Bro Tony

 

[StraightAndNarrow]

In His ministry, Christ emphasized abiding in a loving relationship with Him.


Jhn 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
Jhn 14:22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
Jhn 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Those who reject Him and live their life like a non-Christian are in danger of losing their salvation. The prodigal son came home. What if he had not?

 

[LeBuick]

When Paul said he did what he did not want to do he was not claiming "accidental sin". He as a believer was severly convicted of his chose to sin and it broke his heart because he was a child of God. A genuine believer does not want to sin, but many time choses to do so, which is contrary to our new nature and we are convicted and heart broken over our choices, not our accidents.

Bro Tony

You lost me here, you're saying Paul did not want to sin, but chose to sin anyway. If I don't want to do something, why would I go ahead and do it?

Secondly, read the reason Paul said he does it. He says it is not him but sin the dwelleth in him.

[20] Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
[21] I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

 

[Soulman]

If a person cannot earn their salvation by doing good works, you can't lose it through bad works. We are saved from the penalty of sin but not sin itself. In other words we will continue to sin as long as we are in this body. We are cursed. When Christ gives the gift of salvation, He doesn't take it back.

 

[Hope of Glory]

If a person cannot earn their salvation by doing good works, you can't lose it through bad works. We are saved from the penalty of sin but not sin itself. In other words we will continue to sin as long as we are in this body. We are cursed. When Christ gives the gift of salvation, He doesn't take it back.

I'm glad to see that at least a few people see this and accept it.

 

[saturneptune]

If a person cannot earn their salvation by doing good works, you can't lose it through bad works. We are saved from the penalty of sin but not sin itself. In other words we will continue to sin as long as we are in this body. We are cursed. When Christ gives the gift of salvation, He doesn't take it back.

That is about as well as I have ever heard that thought put across. Great post.

 

[ccrobinson]

The prodigal son came home. What if he had not?

If he hadn't, wouldn't he have still been his father's son?

 

[Bro Tony]

You lost me here, you're saying Paul did not want to sin, but chose to sin anyway. If I don't want to do something, why would I go ahead and do it?

Secondly, read the reason Paul said he does it. He says it is not him but sin the dwelleth in him.

[20] Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
[21] I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

Morning LeBuick,

My point was that we have all made choices that we knew were wrong. When faced with a choice to follow God or our flesh we have each chosen the flesh, even knowing it was not what God wanted nor what we wanted because we have been changed on the inside by the Holy Spirit. Within every believer we have the God given desire to follow Him, when we sin we go against that desire, dont really want to do it, but for some reason still choose to do it. That is the struggle that Paul spoke of in vs. 20 you quoted---Paul certainly was not shirking his responsibility for his sin. He sinned like we do----willfully even though within ourselves the new man does not want to be disobedient to God. Hope that helps, hope I didnt muddy the water more.

Bro Tony

 

[npetreley]

If a person cannot earn their salvation by doing good works, you can't lose it through bad works. We are saved from the penalty of sin but not sin itself. In other words we will continue to sin as long as we are in this body. We are cursed. When Christ gives the gift of salvation, He doesn't take it back.

By the same reasoning, if we can choose of our own free will to be saved, then we can also choose of our own free will to get unsaved after we've been saved.

 

[LeBuick]

By the same reasoning, if we can choose of our own free will to be saved, then we can also choose of our own free will to get unsaved after we've been saved.

If you were the keeper of salvation you could. But since we are not the saver or the keeper of the saved, then try as you may but you'll be saved anyhow.

It's like the roach motel, sinners check in but they can't check out! :thumbs:

 

[npetreley]

If you were the keeper of salvation you could. But since we are not the saver or the keeper of the saved, then try as you may but you'll be saved anyhow.

It's like the roach motel, sinners check in but they can't check out! :thumbs:

All you're doing is changing the rules just for this one situation.

If logic can dictate the former rule, then it can dictate the latter. In other words:

1. If you cannot earn your salvation by good works, then you cannot lose your salvation by bad works.

2. If you can choose salvation of your own free will, you can also choose to become unsaved by your own free will, since the hinge and turning point of your salvation rests upon your choice one way or another. The only way to dispute this logically is to claim that we lose our free will once we're saved, and that is why we are unable to exercise it to become unsaved.

If the rules of logic apply to the first, then they apply to the second. Otherwise all you're doing is yelling "special dispensation!" for the second one, to get around a sticky problem.

Personally, I think logic is the wrong approach to both. But I'm simply saying that if you are going to assert the former as true because it is logically sound, then you must assert the latter as true because it is also logically sound.

By the way, I agree. We are not the saver, and we do not choose salvation of our own free will, which is why the second statement is nonsense. But it is logically consistent if one believes in salvation by free will choice.

 

[Soulman]

By the way, I agree. We are not the saver, and we do not choose salvation of our own free will, which is why the second statement is nonsense. But it is logically consistent if one believes in salvation by free will choice.

We absoloutly choose salvation. Jesus is the second Adam and came that all men could make the same choice of either to be God's child or not.

We don't start out as God's. Jn. 8:44 You are of your father the devil. The bible says we are condemned already. All have sinned and come short of the glory of God. We start out as God's creation, not His children. We are adopted into the family of God. Why adopted? Because we weren't His in the first place.

Alot of you folks complicate salvation by saying it isn't our choice. It is or God would not hold us accountable. We are the ones that waken to see our utterly lost condition. We realize we can do nothing but beg God's forgiveness to save us.

Quit thinking you are so special because God chose you. Every man can see and hear God's plan. Some choose to accept and some choose not to.

Once you have been given salvation it cannot be lost. We were purchased with a price and are not your own. We were never our own. You are either owned by the devil or by Christ. Salvation is not yours to give back.