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Why Don't Modern Denominations Understand The Rapture
- Thread starter JD731
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(1 Thessalonians 4:13-18)
And now, dear brothers and sisters, we want you to know what will happen to the believers who have died so you will not grieve like people who have no hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and was raised to life again, we also believe that when Jesus returns, God will bring back with him the believers who have died. We tell you this directly from the Lord: We who are still living when the Lord returns will not meet him ahead of those who have died. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a commanding shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet call of God. First, the Christians who have died will rise from their graves. Then, together with them, we who are still alive and remain on the earth will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Then we will be with the Lord forever. So encourage each other with these words.
From this passage can we find:
1) A pre-trib rapture (No)
2) A 1000 year reign of Christ, followed by more activity by Satan (No)
3) A post-trib rapture (No)
What can we find.
1) Jesus will come back from heaven.
2) God will bring back all the believers who have died and raised them from the dead to meet them in the air.
3) All believers who are alive will meet Jesus in the air.
4) All believers will be with Jesus forever.
That's the text.
What is there to argue about from that passage?
Paul is explaining to his readers that they don't have to worry about the believers who have died. Extermination is not what happens when we die.
And now, dear brothers and sisters, we want you to know what will happen to the believers who have died so you will not grieve like people who have no hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and was raised to life again, we also believe that when Jesus returns, God will bring back with him the believers who have died. We tell you this directly from the Lord: We who are still living when the Lord returns will not meet him ahead of those who have died. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a commanding shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet call of God. First, the Christians who have died will rise from their graves. Then, together with them, we who are still alive and remain on the earth will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Then we will be with the Lord forever. So encourage each other with these words.
From this passage can we find:
1) A pre-trib rapture (No)
2) A 1000 year reign of Christ, followed by more activity by Satan (No)
3) A post-trib rapture (No)
What can we find.
1) Jesus will come back from heaven.
2) God will bring back all the believers who have died and raised them from the dead to meet them in the air.
3) All believers who are alive will meet Jesus in the air.
4) All believers will be with Jesus forever.
That's the text.
What is there to argue about from that passage?
Paul is explaining to his readers that they don't have to worry about the believers who have died. Extermination is not what happens when we die.
There is not a handful of people here who can give a biblical definition of the church of Jesus Christ. I know this is true because I have read their comments for a long time. The beginning of the church is stated clearly in several passages of the scripture as well as it's fullness, yet these folk have been taught to define it within the context of their denominational persuasions. This usually compels them to ignore the meaning of words or to spiritualize words and phrases or to just plain deny what is said. So, how can they answer the rapture question?
Anyone who knows anything about the church should know that believers in this age make up the body of Christ commonly called the church because of the meaning of the word. One should know that he is the head of the body and is one with us. This is what the scriptures means when we are told we are "in Christ." This is a doctrinal statement and is as true as it can possibly be. Those who claim that the church will endure the great tribulation, which is the wrath of God against unrepentant sinners is basically saying that the sacrifice of Christ under the wrath of God at the cross was not sufficient to save those who trust in him even after that claim is make succinctly in both Romans and 1 Thessalonians and that he must bear it again.
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24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
God does not see the body of Christ as having sin. We are clothed upon with the righteousness of Christ, both individually and collectively. Our hope is not that we will endure the wrath of God along with the wicked.
His promise of deliverance from his earthly judgement against sinners is our hope and we are comforted by his words.
Tell us your history. Who told you of Christ and mentored you in the faith?
Do you have someone who you have learned from or are you rogue?
Without spiritualizing, show us exactly where God tells us that believers will be raptured before they face tribulation. I want to see the exact verses that clearly explain this as being fact. So far, you have never produced even one verse.
Who here disagrees with that statement? Name names.
No, not even close. You are attempting to tell us that Christians will never suffer persecution, which is demonstratably false since we see very early that Christians are martyred (see Deacon Stephen).
Hebrews 9 is not referring to Christians being spared from tribulation.
Romans 5 does not tell us that Christians will be spared from tribulation.
We never endure the wrath of God in tribulation. We endure the wrath of the Dragon, the Beast, the 2nd beast, and the allure of the whore of Babylon because we oppose them as servants of the Most High God.
We are not removed from this world as God judges those who carry the mark of the Beast. Nowhere in scripture are we ever told that we will be removed. You have no scripture.
God never makes that promise.
We are delivered from God's just wrath because we are justified by faith in Christ Jesus as our substitutionary atonement for our sins. "There is now, therefore, no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus (Romans 8)." This does not mean we are spared from being mistreated, persecuted and martyred in tribulation.
I await exact scripture that tells us we will be removed from this planet before we suffer tribulation.
If you find it, you must then explain why Stephen was martyred and why Paul was beheaded and why Peter was crucified upside down by the Beast.
Sir, I don't think you know your Bible very well. You have provided no scripture to prove your assertion of a pre-trib rapture. Not one verse.
Now, tell us where you were trained and who mentored you in the faith.
atpollard
Well-Known Member
Don’t the Jehovah’s Witnesses say the exact same thing about their view?
You are asking me to do something that God has so far not accomplished with you. The truths of the scriptures requires one to humbly bow in submission to the words of God and to be taught of his Spirit who indwells the believer. One must have both. It is not okay to choose which words you will accept as literal and which you will spiritualize. The only way you will agree with my handling of the words of God is if I will approach them with the same ignorance as you. I cannot and will not do that. I will not adopt a system of theology and then go about to make the word of God prove it.
My opinion of your comments so far is that they are empty and vain and without content or context. You haven't presented anything to try to convince others that you are on the right track and that we should listen to you. You have no foundation on which to build. You accuse others of being wrong just because you proudly assert that you are right. You throw out the worn out cliches' that you are elect because God somehow liked you better than most others. Try proving that if you need something to keep you busy for a while. This is the reason you see the concept of election on every page.
No one who cannot define the church of Jesus Christ can understand it's destiny. This includes you. Why could anyone suppose they could teach you the destination of the church and it's purpose if you do not know it's beginning? You can prove me wrong about this. Just explain what the church of Jesus Christ is and what is the purpose of God for it. The church of Jesus Christ as we know it is a mystery. A mystery in the scriptures is a hidden truth that must be revealed by God. The mysteries of God are the deep things of God. Paul and the apostles were the stewards of the mysteries and provided the words to teach them, but God provided the Spirit as the teacher of the words.
1Co 4:1 Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God.
2 Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful.
I trust you know what a steward is.
3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man’s judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.
4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.
5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.
1Co 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.
1Jo 2:26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
Eph 3:1 For this cause (of building the church with both Jews and gentile believers together- see chapter 2) I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
The fact that the religious cannot grasp the truths of the mysteries is indeed a proof of the inspiration of the word of God.
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Silverhair
Well-Known Member
You keep showing your inability to read and comprehend the the text of scripture. You only trust scripture that fits your Calvinist philosophy. If you do not want to be honest with scripture then why do you come on a Christian board?
You can not even accept the truth of your own quotes "(Ephesians 2:8-10) God saved you by his grace when you believed. " You even put those words in bold and you still can not accept them. Sad, very very sad.
Hi JD731, I myself like tyndale1946 have never heard a sermon on the rapture and have no concise study of it like you
apparently have. Pre-tribulation rapture and Premilleniallism are obviously the most accepted view and you rarely hear
anyone question it for fear of being called a "nay-sayer".Preaching on such topic can often get a good following too. However at the judgement seat I'm not sure how that will go as far my end times view. I don't think one need be so concerned.
I will just be so glad that I was saved by a Gloriously Merciful God.
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So, you have no scripture. Got it.
You have been blustering this whole time and you have no verse to prove a pre-trib rapture.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Have you shown anything to support your view other than your opinion. It is easy to disagree but harder to prove. Give us some proof of your position. Or at least tell us what your position is.
Saying that Christ will come back at the end of the age does not tell us your position.
I found this online and you can make of it what you will. I think @Stray Cat said it well:
"I don't think one need be so concerned.
I will just be so glad that I was saved by a Gloriously Merciful God."
Our fellowship as Christians is not based upon the timing of the Rapture, but upon the finished work of Jesus on the cross. Some have accused those who believe in a pre-tribulation rapture as trying to avoid all trouble and persecution. On the contrary, the Church always has been and always will be persecuted as long as we are in the world, but this is not the same as the wrath of God poured out during the Tribulation. We believe the Rapture occurs before the Tribulation because more Scriptures support a pre-tribulation Rapture over the Amillennial, Post-millennial, and Post-tribulation theories. We can't be dogmatic about something that hasn't occurred yet. Whenever He comes back is His will, which should be sufficient for whatever position you hold. In the meantime, God has given us Scriptures to examine. The following list of Scriptures indicate the Rapture will be Pre-Tribulation.
Proof #1: Revelation 19:11-21 doesn't mention a resurrection.
The Rapture is a resurrection of those "in Christ" (1 Thess. 4:13-18). Doesn’t it strike you as odd that Rev. 19:11-21, which is the clearest picture of the Second Coming of Christ, does not mention a resurrection? The Rapture will be the biggest event since the resurrection of Jesus where hundreds of millions of Christians will be resurrected and translated, yet there isn't any mention of it here. Don't you think it deserves at least one verse? The Rapture isn't mentioned because it doesn't occur at the second coming.
Proof #2: Zechariah 14:1-15 doesn't mention a resurrection. This is an Old Testament picture of Jesus returning to earth at the Second Coming. Again, no mention of a resurrection.
Proof #3: Two different pictures are painted.
In the Old Testament, two different pictures are painted of the Messiah—one suffering (Isa. 53:2-10, Ps. 22:6-8, 11-18) and one reigning as King (Ps. 2:6-12, Zech. 14:9,16). As we look back on these Scriptures, we can see that they predicted two separate comings of the Messiah—the 1st coming as a suffering Messiah and the 2nd coming (still future) as a reigning King.
In the New Testament, we have another picture added. Again, we have two pictures painted which don’t look the same. These two different descriptions of Jesus’ coming point to two separate events we call the Rapture and the Second Coming.
Proof #4: The Known Day and the Unknown Day
Concerning the return of Jesus, the Bible presents a day we can't know and a day we can know. Matthew 25:13 says Jesus will return at an unknown time, while Revelation 12:6 says the Jews will have to wait 1,260 days for the Lord to return. The 1,260 days begins when the Antichrist stands in the Temple and declares himself to be God (Matt. 24:15-21, 2 Thess. 2:4). This event will take place at the mid-point of the seven year Tribulation (Dan 9:27). The Antichrist has authority to rule for 42 months, which is 1,260 days (Rev. 13:4) and will be destroyed by Jesus at His Second Coming (Rev. 19:20, 2 Thess. 2:8). The known and unknown days happen at different times, meaning they are two separate events.
Proof #5: A door open in heaven (Revelation 4:1)
The door in heaven is opened to let John into heaven. We believe John's call into heaven is
prophetic of the Church being caught up at the Rapture (see proof #6). In Revelation 19:11, heaven is opened again, this time to let the armies which are already in heaven out. This is the Church, which has been raptured at a previous time, following Jesus out of heaven at the Second Coming.
Proof #6: "Come up here." (Revelation 4:1)
A voice called for the apostle John to "Come up here," and immediately he was in heaven. This seems to be a prophetic reference to the Rapture of the Church. The words "Come up here" are spoken to the two witnesses who are killed in the middle of the Tribulation, who are resurrected and ascend into heaven (Rev. 11:12). Therefore, the phrase "Come up here" could mean the church is raptured in Rev. 4:1. The word "church" is mentioned 22 times in Rev. 1-3, but is not mentioned again until Rev. 22:17.
Proof #7: The 24 elders have their crowns.
After John is called up into heaven, he sees the 24 elders with their crowns (Rev. 4:4-10). We know that Christians will receive their rewards (crowns) at the Rapture (2 Tim. 4:8, 1 Pet. 5:4). We will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous (Luke 14:14). The elders could not have received their crowns unless the resurrection (Rapture) had taken place.
Proof #8 Holy ones are already with Jesus in heaven (Zech. 14:5, Rev. 19:14)
The armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, follow Jesus out of heaven at His Second Coming (Rev. 19:14, Zech. 14:5, Col. 3:4). These are not angels because Rev. 19:8 tells us the fine linen is the righteousness of the saints. In order to come out of heaven we first have to go in, indicating a previous Rapture.
Proof #9: Kept from the hour of testing (Rev. 3:10)
Revelation 3:10 says we will be kept out of the hour of testing which will come upon the whole earth (the Tribulation). Some wrongly believe that "keep" means to keep through, or protect through the Tribulation. Suppose you approach a high voltage area with a sign that says, "Keep Out." Does that mean you can enter and be protected? No, it means you are forbidden from entering the area. But this verse also says He will keep us from the hour of testing. It is not just the testing, but the time period. If a student is excused from a test, he still may have to sit in the class while others take the test. But if he is excused from the hour of testing, he can go home. The Church will be called home before the hour of testing.
Proof #10: Angels don't resurrect people when they gather them for judgment.
When the angels are sent forth to gather the elect at the Second Coming (Matt. 24:29-31), some have wrongly interpreted this as the Rapture. There is a huge problem with this interpretation. If we are resurrected at this time, why would we need angels to gather us? In the resurrection, we will be like the angels (Matt. 22:30) and able to travel in the air at will. Obviously, these people who are gathered are not resurrected, therefore it can't be the Rapture. No one would claim the wicked are raptured at this time, yet Matthew 13:39-41, 49 says the angels will not only gather the elect, but also the wicked. This gathering is not a resurrection.
Proof #11: Both wicked and righteous both can't be taken first.
First Thessalonians 4:13-17 says the righteous are taken and the wicked are left behind. Matthew 13:30, 49 says the wicked are taken first and the righteous are left behind. These verses point to two separate events, the Rapture and the Second Coming.
Proof #12: Jesus returns from the wedding.
When Jesus returns to earth at the Second Coming, He will return from a wedding (Luke 12:36). At the Rapture, Jesus is married to His bride, the Church. After the wedding, He will return to earth.
Proof #13: Jesus will receive us to Himself, and not us to receive Him (John 14:2-3).
Jesus said He would prepare a place for the Church in heaven, and then He would come again to receive us to Himself. Why would Jesus prepare a place for us in heaven and then not take us there? At the Rapture, He will come to receive us to Himself, "that where I am (heaven), there you may be also." If the Rapture occurred at the same time as the Second Coming, we would go up to the clouds and then immediately come back to earth. That would contradict John 14:2-3.
Proof #14: The one who restrains is taken out of the way.
In 2 Thess. 2:6-7, Paul says "the one who restrains will be taken out of the way" before the
Antichrist can be revealed. We believe this refers to the Rapture because the Church is clearly the biggest obstacle to the Antichrist becoming a world ruler.
Proof #15: The separation of the sheep and goats (Matt. 25:31-46)
If the Rapture occurred at the Second Coming, why would the sheep and the goats need to be separated immediately after the Second Coming? A Rapture at the Second Coming would have already separated the sheep from the goats. With a Pre-Tribulation Rapture, the many people saved after the Rapture will need to be separated from the goats after the Second Coming.
Proof #16: Who will populate the Millennium?
If the Rapture occurs at the Second Coming and the wicked are cast into hell at that time, who will be left to populate the Millennium? Only people in their natural (non-resurrected) bodies will be able to have children (Matt. 22:30). With a Pre-Tribulation Rapture, the people saved after the Rapture who are alive at the Second Coming will populate the earth during the Millennium (For further explanation on this point, see the article "Who will populate the millennium?")
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atpollard
Well-Known Member
CONFESSION:
I hate eschatology and the endless, pointless arguments over it. I cannot, in good conscience, place too great a literal weight on Revelation when it is so obviously a VISION and so heavily symbolic.
QUESTION:
Given the above, I none the less, do have questions and I am aware of the "pieces" of the puzzle presented in less "metaphorical" portions of scripture (like the Gospels and Letters). So here is a simple and direct question:
Is there any evidence or reference to [the/a] Millennial Kingdom to be found outside of Revelation?
[I am attempting to determine whether it is even a LITERAL event or merely a SYMBOLIC vision found only in Revelation.]
PS: In case one wonders how this relates to the TOPIC, if there IS a kingdom, then the rapture could occur before the 100 year reign on earth (after the so-called Tribulation) and if there is no literal Kingdom, then the rapture is the "gathering of the harvest" immediately before the "Day of Wrath". Scripture is clear that there is a "taken away", but unclear about exactly when.
I hate eschatology and the endless, pointless arguments over it. I cannot, in good conscience, place too great a literal weight on Revelation when it is so obviously a VISION and so heavily symbolic.
QUESTION:
Given the above, I none the less, do have questions and I am aware of the "pieces" of the puzzle presented in less "metaphorical" portions of scripture (like the Gospels and Letters). So here is a simple and direct question:
Is there any evidence or reference to [the/a] Millennial Kingdom to be found outside of Revelation?
[I am attempting to determine whether it is even a LITERAL event or merely a SYMBOLIC vision found only in Revelation.]
PS: In case one wonders how this relates to the TOPIC, if there IS a kingdom, then the rapture could occur before the 100 year reign on earth (after the so-called Tribulation) and if there is no literal Kingdom, then the rapture is the "gathering of the harvest" immediately before the "Day of Wrath". Scripture is clear that there is a "taken away", but unclear about exactly when.
I do not have any scriptures that you will believe and you actually do not have a verse from whatever you have been quoting, which is not the scriptures. So, we have agreement on something. You can not blame me, or God, for your blindness. It takes faith to believe God and you say, in your world, you don't have any. The scriptures are the only words of God we have. Change the words and you may believe anything you want, except God.
In my world I am constrained by the meanings of words in the scriptures and that willingly and I have faith in them.
1 Cor 1:1 Paul called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,
2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's (gentiles) and our's (Jews):
1 Cor 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you (see 1 Cor 1:1) the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, IF ye keep in memory what I preached unto you (if you have believed from the heart), unless ye have believed in vain.
How do you believe in vain?
Follow the logic here and realize Paul really is addressing who he says he is in 1 Cor 1:1 and not the whole world. The world cannot believe in vain because they have not believed at all.
12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
19 If in this life only we (1 Cor 1:1) have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
This is a much more profound statement from the scriptures than is being accepted by the rapture of the church of Jesus Christ deniers that are among us, and it is a warning to check your faith and be sure whether you are in Christ lest you have believed in vain. "In Christ" means in his body, the church, which is a separate entity than any other entity that is in the world.
Still speaking of and to the addressee of the epistle of 1 Cor 1:1;
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep (death is defined as sleep ONLY to saved people), but we shall all be changed (glorified bodily),
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible (those who have already died physically and are in the grave at this event) must put on incorruption, and this mortal (those who are alive at this event) must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.
See the trumpets and when they sound in Numbers 10.
Jesus Christ did rise from the dead and we, his church, his body, are said presently to sit with him in heavenly places.
Ephesians 2:6
And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
Consider these things, and think.
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You know that I quote scripture and the scripture I quote actually addresses the topic of this thread, which is understanding the rapture and why the vast majority of Christians believe they are in the tribulation and will be raised when Christ returns to reign forever and ever.
You may distain English translations that much of English speaking Christianity accepts. That's your bias, not mine.
What I note is that all the verses you quoted had nothing to do with believers being caught up to meet Jesus in the air.
So far, you have provided nothing about the rapture whereby I or anyone else would be blind. Why would I blame you or God when you have nothing to share?
Where have I ever said this? Please provide a quote from anywhere at the BB where I say this. If not, know that your statement here is a sinful accusation that my King, Jesus, does not make against me.
Does this mean you only read the Bible in its original language? You only read Hebrew or Greek and a smattering of Aramaic? When translators translate the original language to English (or any other language) they use words that aren't exactly the same original words. They convey the meanings of the original words.
The thing is, you are not the judge, jury, and determiner of what English version is valuable. At this point, you don't tell us what English version you prefer. All we know is you don't like the version I use when I quote scripture. Cry me a river.
Here is what Paul said constrained him:
(2 Corinthians 5:14)
Either way, Christ’s love controls us. Since we believe that Christ died for all, we also believe that we have all died to our old life.
(Philippians 1:23-26)
I’m torn between two desires: I long to go and be with Christ, which would be far better for me. But for your sakes, it is better that I continue to live. Knowing this, I am convinced that I will remain alive so I can continue to help all of you grow and experience the joy of your faith. And when I come to you again, you will have even more reason to take pride in Christ Jesus because of what he is doing through me.
I certainly consider God's word and I think.
I discern your spirit of accusation and I recognize you do not speak for our King.
May God bless you as you read His word. May you rejoice in tribulation as God provides grace to you today.
@JD731 quoted from 1 Corinthians 15.
Here is the scripture. I will use the KJV lest there be whining about translation.
In this passage do we find any mention of a pre-tribulation rapture?
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.
Now read Matthew 24, which connects with what Paul stated. Is there a pre-trib rapture in Jesus words?
And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. All these are the beginning of sorrows. Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Here is the scripture. I will use the KJV lest there be whining about translation.
In this passage do we find any mention of a pre-tribulation rapture?
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.
Now read Matthew 24, which connects with what Paul stated. Is there a pre-trib rapture in Jesus words?
And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. All these are the beginning of sorrows. Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Now, tell us what is the point.
OP said:
The Bible refers to several "Mysteries of [something].
Mystery of "the kingdom of God."
Mystery of "His will."
Mystery of "Christ."
Mystery of "the Gospel."
Mystery of "the faith."
Mystery of "godliness."
I think all of these above listed "mysteries" have been revealed by the NT inspired writers.
Next a few "mysteries" will be revealed during "End Times."
Mystery of "the Seven Stars."
Mystery of "the woman."
Also during "End Times" the mystery of God will be finished just as it has been revealed by the prophets.
This leaves us with the "Mystery of Lawlessness" [iniquity} which refers also to another "End Times" prophecy.
The "after he [He] is removed, or taken out of the way refers to someone who restrains the coming of the "Man of Lawlessness," then "the apostasy" will occur, which apparently refers to false churches and false doctrines flourishing. And what keeps us, born anew believers, somewhat on the right track is our indwelt "Holy Spirit" thus I think the rapture will "take out of the way" that which restrains us from "falling away from our faith." Just one person's opinion.
I told you.
The point is, that neither passages show us a pre-trib rapture.
You told us that no modern denomination understands the rapture. When we show you that the oldest denominations don't hold a pre-trib rapture, you get upset. When we explain from scripture that we go through tribulation here on earth, you get upset. When you are asked to share who your mentor in the faith is, you won't say. When we share scripture you claim it's not the right version.
@JD731, the evidence in this thread is overwhelming that you don't know what you are talking about.
Answering the OP question concerning possibly errant views of the rapture is off topic?
I do not doubt that you will go through the tribulation if you are still around, which I suspect you will be. I hope you do not think I dssgree with you about that.
You have not explained anything and I am beginning to wonder about your maturity level.
My "mentor " is the word of God with the common and accepted definition of the words taken in context.
If you have a "version" of the word of God, then you have someone elses words and not God's. How simple is that to understand? Every word that God has said to us in this age has been spoken and written by about 8 men who were alive in 30 AD and died during the first century but who saw our Lord Jesus Christ after he rose from the dead. If you have something else that you claim is the word of God, and you do, then you are decieved and are decieving others. There is no way to think like God unless you have the words in which God thinks. This is the reason why the natural man, without the Spirit of God in him and the word of God on the outside of him works together to allow us to know the things of God. Why else do you think the truths are called mysteries of God and the deep things of God?
You could not give a biblical definition and explanation of the church of Jesus Christ if your life depended on it and how would you know about the mystery of the resurrection when it is glorified physically and taken to the Fathers house? Your posts and comments helps to cement my understanding that you cannot be taught.
I wonder if people on this board who holds your position is happy with how you are defending it for them.
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