Why Don't Modern Denominations Understand The Rapture

[tyndale1946]

The voice he heard was not a trumpet but was like a trumpet. That means the voice was loud.

John 11:43 And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.

44 And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go.

But I know when the LORD comes again, HIS VOICE is going to shake the Universe... Brother Glen

 

[Stray Cat]

Well, I guess we can see if other Amillennialists here at the BB think I have misspoken regarding God's work in caring for us with the tribulation we presently are all going through. I think @canadyjd and perhaps @KenH and maybe @kyredneck may hold similar views. Am I representing amillenialism adequately or have I grossly missed the mark?

Hi, taisto. You have made some interesting replies on this post. I am far from a scholar on this, It seems amillenialism and
postmillenialism are rather straight forward (the latter is the view I tend to take). Premillenialism seems very complex and
have heard many views especially on the timetable of events, this whole post has been quite interesting. Thanks

 

[atpollard]

10 I was in the Spirit on the day of the Lord, and I heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet Rev 1

Yup. That’s what I was remembering and paraphrased. I think everything after that has the potential to be symbolic rather than strictly literal.

 

[atpollard]

Everything in Revelation is literal.

Come on chief. Either you are snowing me or we are reading different books called Revelation.

Does YOUR local church have a literal lamp stand that Jesus may come and remove … or was that SYMBOLISM to represent something else?

Did a woman standing on the moon literally give birth to a son and both were almost swallowed by a literal dragon … or was that SYMBOLISM to represent something else?

Does Jesus literally hold seven stars in his hand and have a sword sticking out of his mouth … or was that SYMBOLISM to represent something else?

How do you literally contain wrath in a bowl and pour it out … perhaps that was SYMBOLISM?

 

[kyredneck]

10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord`s day, and I heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet Rev 1 ASV

10 I was in the Spirit on the day of the Lord, and I heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet Rev 1;
RV-Redneck Version

The voice he heard was not a trumpet but was like a trumpet. That means the voice was loud.

I think you may have missed the gist of my post.

'Day of the Lord', as in:

5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the great and terrible day of Jehovah come. Mal 4 ASV

...as in NOT meaning Sunday, the first day of the week..

 

[KenH]

Thanks for posting for i felt you did not want to debate on this.

I'll just leave it with what I have already posted.

 

[percho]

@percho, I disagree with your last sentence:
"I do not believe he (Satan) is bound today."

If Satan were not bound, the church would be under full persecution on a worldwide scale. But, like with Job, Satan is not being allowed to fully attack the Church, thus he is bound. In Revelation 12 we see the woman (the Church) is being protected in the wilderness from the Dragon. This protection has bound Satan from his full wrath on the Church. But, near the end, Satan will be allowed to attack the Church like he was able to attack Job. This shows the short time after the 1000 years where Satan deceives all the nations. This is the time of "Har-meggedon", when the nations attack the Mount of Assembly, the Church, in full force. It is the time when Jesus returns and destroys all those who oppose him, the judgment takes place, and the bride comes to the wedding feast.

Of course, you don't have to hold my view. I simply disagree with your statement.

Blessings to you.

I understand what you are saying however does the bounding of Satan have anything to do with the persecution of the church?
Isn't the bounding of Satan relative to the deception of the nations?

From Rev 20:3 that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled:

When has that taken place in history? Are the nations today being deceived? Take our good old US of A. Who are plus 90% of our leaders, following. How much of what we are told by our government and the media can we believe?

I wonder if the 1000 year rule of Christ is to punish one for being deceived or to teach, truth, and how to live, in truth? I wonder if the lion can lay down with the lamb? Is Isa 65 truth? When?

 

[percho]

And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. Matt 24:22

What days?

What will take place that shortens those days?

Do they need to be shortened for the elects sake? Why?

 

[percho]

For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

Is paragraph 2 speaking about what was written in paragraph 1?

Is paragraph 1 the beginning of what is called the day of the Lord, considering what is written continuously above from 1 Thes 4 & 5?

 

[taisto]

I understand what you are saying however does the bounding of Satan have anything to do with the persecution of the church?
Isn't the bounding of Satan relative to the deception of the nations?

From Rev 20:3 that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled:

When has that taken place in history? Are the nations today being deceived? Take our good old US of A. Who are plus 90% of our leaders, following. How much of what we are told by our government and the media can we believe?

I wonder if the 1000 year rule of Christ is to punish one for being deceived or to teach, truth, and how to live, in truth? I wonder if the lion can lay down with the lamb? Is Isa 65 truth? When?

What does Revelation 12 tell us? (Note: the woman is the Church.) The Dragons wrath is against the Church, but God protects us by binding Satan from attacking us in this millennium of church growth.

Then I witnessed in heaven an event of great significance. I saw a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon beneath her feet, and a crown of twelve stars on her head. She was pregnant, and she cried out because of her labor pains and the agony of giving birth. Then I witnessed in heaven another significant event. I saw a large red dragon with seven heads and ten horns, with seven crowns on his heads. His tail swept away one-third of the stars in the sky, and he threw them to the earth. He stood in front of the woman as she was about to give birth, ready to devour her baby as soon as it was born. She gave birth to a son who was to rule all nations with an iron rod. And her child was snatched away from the dragon and was caught up to God and to his throne. And the woman fled into the wilderness, where God had prepared a place to care for her for 1,260 days. Then there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon and his angels. And the dragon lost the battle, and he and his angels were forced out of heaven. This great dragon—the ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, the one deceiving the whole world—was thrown down to the earth with all his angels. Then I heard a loud voice shouting across the heavens, “It has come at last— salvation and power and the Kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Christ. For the accuser of our brothers and sisters has been thrown down to earth— the one who accuses them before our God day and night. And they have defeated him by the blood of the Lamb and by their testimony. And they did not love their lives so much that they were afraid to die. Therefore, rejoice, O heavens! And you who live in the heavens, rejoice! But terror will come on the earth and the sea, for the devil has come down to you in great anger, knowing that he has little time.” When the dragon realized that he had been thrown down to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. But she was given two wings like those of a great eagle so she could fly to the place prepared for her in the wilderness. There she would be cared for and protected from the dragon for a time, times, and half a time. Then the dragon tried to drown the woman with a flood of water that flowed from his mouth. But the earth helped her by opening its mouth and swallowing the river that gushed out from the mouth of the dragon. And the dragon was angry at the woman and declared war against the rest of her children—all who keep God’s commandments and maintain their testimony for Jesus.

 

[taisto]

For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

Is paragraph 2 speaking about what was written in paragraph 1?

Is paragraph 1 the beginning of what is called the day of the Lord, considering what is written continuously above from 1 Thes 4 & 5?

Your quotes provide nothing about a pre-trib rapture. These verses show us that Jesus will return with the saints to draw all his children to him.

The Bible and Jesus in the Gospels tells us that when Jesus comes, it will be like in the days of Noah. People will be celebrating and partying and then suddenly, without any warning, Jesus will return. The illustration of a thief at night is the suddenness and unexpected nature of Jesus return. The unbelieving world thinks a living Jesus is a myth, just like Noah's world thought a flood was a myth. They would not listen and when it came...the door to the ark was shut.
Peter tells us this second judgment is by fire and the world doesn't even know what is about to hit them.

Percho, the verses you share would never be imagined as pre-trib if a pre-trib presupposition were not first applied.

 

[percho]

Tribulation,

Jesus comes in his presence the elect, those to rule with him from dead and living caught up in the air to meet him. Christ and saints come on down to the earth to rule 1000 years. The beginning of the day of the Lord. Satan is bound so he can not deceive the nations

After the 1000 years Satan released and tries to deceive the nations, then cast in lake of fire.
The last enemy is destroyed, death. Death and Hades is cast in the lake of fire.
The end of the day of the Lord.

The kingdom is delivered up to God even the Father.

New heavens and new earth.

IMHHHO

 

[JD731]

Come on chief. Either you are snowing me or we are reading different books called Revelation.

Does YOUR local church have a literal lamp stand that Jesus may come and remove … or was that SYMBOLISM to represent something else?

Did a woman standing on the moon literally give birth to a son and both were almost swallowed by a literal dragon … or was that SYMBOLISM to represent something else?

Does Jesus literally hold seven stars in his hand and have a sword sticking out of his mouth … or was that SYMBOLISM to represent something else?

How do you literally contain wrath in a bowl and pour it out … perhaps that was SYMBOLISM?

If the symbols do not refer to an established literal event person or thing or to one explained in the text then it is meaningless as you contend and open to private interpretation. But in the scriptures all these things do refer to something that is literal, making them literal as well. Example.

No one reading the Revelation would not associate the dragon with Satan and the devil.

Gen 37:8 And his brethren said to him, Shalt thou indeed reign over us? or shalt thou indeed have dominion over us? And they hated him yet the more for his dreams, and for his words.
9 And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me.
10 And he told it to his father, and to his brethren: and his father rebuked him, and said unto him, What is this dream that thou hast dreamed? Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth?

Re 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

We do not need to guess who these different entitities are. They are very literal and this future cosmic battle is real.

 

[taisto]

If the symbols do not refer to an established literal event person or thing or to one explained in the text then it is meaningless as you contend and open to private interpretation. But in the scriptures all these things do refer to something that is literal, making them literal as well. Example.

No one reading the Revelation would not associate the dragon with Satan and the devil.

Gen 37:8 And his brethren said to him, Shalt thou indeed reign over us? or shalt thou indeed have dominion over us? And they hated him yet the more for his dreams, and for his words.
9 And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me.
10 And he told it to his father, and to his brethren: and his father rebuked him, and said unto him, What is this dream that thou hast dreamed? Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth?

Re 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

We do not need to guess who these different entitities are. They are very literal and this future cosmic battle is real.

It is a present cosmic battle.

 

[percho]

It is a present cosmic battle.

I agree and it has been going on since before; and God saith, 'Let light be;' and light is. And God seeth the light that, good and God separateth between the light and the darkness, Gen 1; And will go until; Rom 16:20 and the God of the peace shall bruise the Adversary under your feet quickly; [in quickness]; the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen!

In a moment in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump

 

[timtofly]

The Day of the Lord has not been fulfilled. It wasn't completed in AD 70.

Jesus left in the clouds. His return has not come. (I have no idea what your talking about regarding Jesus dying over and over again. Read Hebrews). Jesus tells you that his return is delayed (Matthew 24 and Matthew 25) but when He returns it will be suddenly, like a thief who comes at night with no warning. He tells you that this sudden return will be very evident, like lightning and thunder. We are told that the moment the last of the elect come to faith, Jesus will return and judge the world (2 Peter 3).

The 1420 days (3.5 years) is not literal. It expresses a fixed amount that is finite. The 144,000 is the whole of Israel, the Church. John is employing gematria in the numbers, not literalism.

The wheat (sheep) and tares (goats) are together. It is at the end that the angels separate them by God's decree and Jesus returns. The Great White Throne is that separation. John is telling you what he sees in Revelation. He isn't giving you a linear timeline. He's telling you what he sees and he keeps cycling back from panel to panel. There are 7 images he keeps seeing and sharing with us in deeper looks. It is a beautifully written painted book. See it for what it is. Stop trying to create a linear timeline. The book doesn't work that way.

What verse states Jesus is waiting for that last elect to profess Christ? Jesus is coming whether the elect are ready or not. That is evident in the 10 virgins, while 5 were not ready and 5 as you put it, came to faith. Your point would mean all 10 virgins were ready. And when that last one showed up, Jesus could return.

John is not a kabbalist. You are mixing Jewish mysticism into the literal word of God. Are you saying the time Satan is allowed 100% control of the earth, is a fixed amount, but it could literally be 110 years and only God knows that it is a fixed 110 years, just because the number 3.5 or 1420 means a fixed amount and cannot exceed 110 years?

The GWT is not Jesus' throne. David saw that GWT throne and wrote about it in Psalms. Jesus is not sitting on the GWT. God is and has been since creation started. In fact since you like repeating pictures in the book, they saw it when the 6th Seal was opened and prior to the first Trumpet sounding.

"And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:"

The Lamb had not even set up the throne in Jerusalem to judge the sheep and goats at that point. Jesus had just arrived on the earth with all the angels. Angels are described with the symbolism of the word star. God was the face sitting on the GWT.

I am pointing out the painting and it is not a fixed picture. It is constantly moving and accomplishing God's plan on the earth.

Your fixed picture policy even if in depth is "killing" the book of Revelation. Time does not stand still for your ideology to work. The GT may only last for a day, but God only allows Satan a fixed amount of time that will be, if at all, only 42 months. God can change the picture, and what was written, will never happen, no matter how much you think you see it all clearly. Prophecy of judgment is not a promise. It is a worse case scenario. Ask those living in Nineveh the year Jonah prophecied their immediate judgment, how prophecy works.

 

[timtofly]

What else in Revelation is clearly 100% literal?

“It was Sunday (the Lords Day) when John had his vision” is the only 100% literal item I can find in Revelation until people start to claim that the last few chapters are 100% literal [the Millennial Kingdom, the Battle of Armageddon, the New Jerusalem]. I am skeptical that John so abruptly changes literary TYPOLOGIES with no real notification in the text. There are still symbolic visions interspersed among the so-called literal parts.

Nope, John was on the island of Patmos. He was not visiting his local Baptist church on a Sunday. That point was not literal.

"Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,"

John already set the scene that the Lord's Day involved the Second Coming, and was not a literal day of the week.

 

[atpollard]

Nope, John was on the island of Patmos. He was not visiting his local Baptist church on a Sunday. That point was not literal.

"Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,"

John already set the scene that the Lord's Day involved the Second Coming, and was not a literal day of the week.

Then even the one thing I thought was LITERAL may have actually been SYMBOLIC, making Revelation potentially 100% symbolic.


Why would Jesus send letters to churches on the day of His return? That seems too late to repent and change … so I will stick with Sunday as a POSSIBLE meaning for the day that John received his vision.

 

[timtofly]

Your quotes provide nothing about a pre-trib rapture. These verses show us that Jesus will return with the saints to draw all his children to him.

The Bible and Jesus in the Gospels tells us that when Jesus comes, it will be like in the days of Noah. People will be celebrating and partying and then suddenly, without any warning, Jesus will return. The illustration of a thief at night is the suddenness and unexpected nature of Jesus return. The unbelieving world thinks a living Jesus is a myth, just like Noah's world thought a flood was a myth. They would not listen and when it came...the door to the ark was shut.
Peter tells us this second judgment is by fire and the world doesn't even know what is about to hit them.

Percho, the verses you share would never be imagined as pre-trib if a pre-trib presupposition were not first applied.

If Jesus never comes to earth, no one on earth will ever see Him. Your Second Coming does not even allow for Jesus to be on earth walking among humanity like His first coming. For it to be described as a coming to earth, Jesus literally has to come to earth for an extended period of time, longer than a few seconds. According to Matthew 13, Jesus is on the earth, walking among men and gathering a following, at the same time Satan is on the earth gathering a following. Those who follow Jesus are the wheat. Those who follow Satan are the tares. But the wheat and tares do not make up all of humanity. There are millions who are undecided after both Jesus and Satan are gathering followers.

At the end, the angels remove both the tares and the wheat. There are still millions on the earth. These millions are the ones who either take the mark, or are beheaded. These millions are those who show up at Armageddon after Satan's 42 months of AoD. By that time after people are being killed and others beheaded, we are down to tens of thousands. You are not seeing the depth and scope of this last day picture, but think life is over in a few seconds of a twinkling of an eye.

 

[taisto]

What verse states Jesus is waiting for that last elect to profess Christ? Jesus is coming whether the elect are ready or not. That is evident in the 10 virgins, while 5 were not ready and 5 as you put it, came to faith. Your point would mean all 10 virgins were ready. And when that last one showed up, Jesus could return.

God is not willing that any should perish.
2 Peter 3:8-13
But you must not forget this one thing, dear friends: A day is like a thousand years to the Lord, and a thousand years is like a day. The Lord isn’t really being slow about his promise, as some people think. No, he is being patient for your sake. He does not want anyone to be destroyed, but wants everyone to repent. But the day of the Lord will come as unexpectedly as a thief. Then the heavens will pass away with a terrible noise, and the very elements themselves will disappear in fire, and the earth and everything on it will be found to deserve judgment. Since everything around us is going to be destroyed like this, what holy and godly lives you should live, looking forward to the day of God and hurrying it along. On that day, he will set the heavens on fire, and the elements will melt away in the flames. But we are looking forward to the new heavens and new earth he has promised, a world filled with God’s righteousness.

John is not a kabbalist. You are mixing Jewish mysticism into the literal word of God.

No one has called John a Kabbali

Are you saying the time Satan is allowed 100% control of the earth, is a fixed amount, but it could literally be 110 years and only God knows that it is a fixed 110 years, just because the number 3.5 or 1420 means a fixed amount and cannot exceed 110 years?

I am saying that Satan is presently bound (unable to do what he wants - see Job 1 and Job 2), but there will be a season when he is given the ability to fully attack the church for a short season. (See Revelation 12, 13, 17 and 18)

The GWT is not Jesus' throne. David saw that GWT throne and wrote about it in Psalms. Jesus is not sitting on the GWT. God is and has been since creation started. In fact since you like repeating pictures in the book, they saw it when the 6th Seal was opened and prior to the first Trumpet sounding.

"And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:"

The Lamb had not even set up the throne in Jerusalem to judge the sheep and goats at that point. Jesus had just arrived on the earth with all the angels. Angels are described with the symbolism of the word star. God was the face sitting on the GWT.

The throne is in heaven. When Jesus comes, the throne comes with Him. Jesus is God. The Sheep and Goats are separated (Matthew 25)

I am pointing out the painting and it is not a fixed picture. It is constantly moving and accomplishing God's plan on the earth.

The best way for you to understand the picture is to think of a "Where's Waldo" page except Revelation is a "Where's Jesus" page and John is explaining what he is seeing on the page.

Your fixed picture policy even if in depth is "killing" the book of Revelation. Time does not stand still for your ideology to work. The GT may only last for a day, but God only allows Satan a fixed amount of time that will be, if at all, only 42 months.

You keep trying to make the time literal, but it's not. It is a fixed time, but that time is fixed by God.
We are in the image. We are a part of what John is seeing.

God can change the picture, and what was written, will never happen, no matter how much you think you see it all clearly.

Are you saying God may have lied? That John, pointing to vast passages of the Old Testament to show us what the prophets were revealing, may have been making it up and God may not do what He said? I don't understand your comment here.

[/QUOTE]Prophecy of judgment is not a promise.[/QUOTE]
What? Are you saying the prophets may have spoken falsely?

It is a worse case scenario.

Not necessarily. Prophecy can also be positive. Rather than pronouncing "Woe" the prophets also share "Blessed." The beatitudes are prophetic blessings.

Ask those living in Nineveh the year Jonah prophecied their immediate judgment, how prophecy works.

Jonah was like John the Baptist, preaching a message of repentance or the axe is ready to strike the tree. The Ninevites responded better than Israel did.