Why Don't we Keep the Sabbath?

[christianyouth]

Thanks for clairfying, Martin.

About my attempt at a syllogism, all I was trying to show is that if you are saying that there is no distinction between Moral/Ceremonial aspects of the Law, and that Christ fulfilled the Law(moral/Ceremonial) then it follows that NEITHER are binding on the Christian.


I don't see how you can say, "Well, the ceremonial aspects are not obligatory, but the moral aspects are obligatory" if you are using the reasoning that there is no distinction between the two. Most of us would say "We can mix fabrics but we can't kill". Why? Because we believe that the Bible draws a distinction between the ceremonial aspects of the Law, those parts of the Law that pointed forward to Christ and were fulfilled by Christ and were only given to the Jews, but in your view, it seems like you would have to say, "We can mix fabrics and we can kill"(assuming that the NT didn't explictly teach against murder) because Christ fulfilled the Law(ceremonial and moral).

So, when Ed says, "We are not under the Law so I don't have to keep the Sabbath", he should say (since in Romans it's clear it's speaking of both ceremonial/moral aspects) "We're not under the law so I can kill the mail man."

The better argument would be to say, "The Sabbath was given to Israel and never to the Church and Christ fulfilled the Sabbath for us."

 

[J.D.]

==Yes, I have heard that and no I don't believe it is Biblical. A day of rest and worship is great, we all should do that, but we should not call it the Sabbath. Why not? Because it is not the Sabbath. The Sabbath is Saturday, not Sunday. The "Sunday Sabbath" teaching has opened too many doors for cults like the Seventh Day Adventists. We need to stick with Scripture and not invent things to fit our cultural history. We need to learn to know the difference between Biblical Christianity and Americanized Christianity. While much of American Christianity is Biblical, much is not. And that is where we need to be very careful.

This is not just a matter of what we call something, not at all. Words have meanings and those meanings can confuse people if those words are misused or misapplied. The Sabbath is an Old Testament covenant and it has no bearing on the church. Therefore calling Sunday the Sabbath is only confusing the issue and people.



==As I pointed out in my first reply to Christianyouth, I don't condemn people for this (Col 2:16-17, Rom 14:5-6). However I will attempt to clearify the issue as much as I can.



==The Ten Commandments are only part of the larger picture. Yes we should obey, but we can't just ignore what the Old Testament says about the Sabbath covenant with Israel. Having said that, I agree with should obey. I am not teaching antinomianism (lawlessness). I am only trying to point out that we are not under the Law and the Sabbath Law was only a covenant between God and Israel.



==Of course, I don't believe in "doing away" with any of Scripture (Matt 5:17-18). We have to realize, however, that each passage has its historical and Biblical context. The context of the Old Testament Sabbath teaching is a covenant between God and Israel. Trying to apply the Sabbath to the church is error only because it ignores the Biblical/historical context of the Sabbath. It also ignores the fact that Jesus has fulfilled the Sabbath (Heb 4:1-11).



==If that is your approach towards the Sabbath Law then that is fine. However keep in mind you must obey all the Law (Gal 3:10, Deut 27:26). That means you must observe the Sabbath on the Sabbath, you must do no work, your family must do no work, and anyone who violates that must be executed (Ex 31:12-17). You say that is extreme? I disagree. It is being consistant. The approach you explain above is ignoring what the Old Testament teaches about the Sabbath.




==I agree, but that is not the Sabbath. You may think I am being too technical with this, but this is an important technical point. I have seen too many people get confused and drawn into questionable churches over this. We need to be careful how we word things. Saying we observe the Sabbath, when we really don't, will confuse people. Maybe we know what we are saying and what we are not saying, but many new or unsteady Christians may not.

Thank you. I see we are very close to complete agreement on this. Just one last comment though - if "sabbath" can be correctly defined as "one of seven days", then technically it is proper to call the Lords' Day the Christian Sabbath. But I agree that as a matter of convention and clarity, it's better to say "The Lord's Day" as to avoid the confusion to which you so rightly allude.

 

[EdSutton]

Ok, so what it sounds like is that if something is not explicitly taught in the New Testament, but was taught in the Old Testament, we chuck it. Is this a good way of understanding the Bible?

Is it ok for us to cut ourselves for the dead?(Lev 19:28) For our daughters to be prostitutes(Lev 19:19). Neither of those commands are reitterated in the NT. (many more examples of OT commandments that are not reitterated in the NT, even principles such as national judgement, that most fundamentalists believe in, but is exclusively an OT principle, or the concept of prosperity being granted to the godly, another OT principle.)

I mean, if we took this to its logical conclusion, we would have to throw out most of the OT. The OT teaches that if you raise your child in the way he shall go, when he is old he shall not depart from it. There is no NT affirmation of this. It teaches that God will grant prosperity to the one who meditates in his law day and night, this is a principle that is not found in the NT, do we get rid of this too? The point is, we recognize that all scripture is inspired by God. We know, as Paul said, that events in the OT occured to give us, NT believers, an example. If this is true, why then should we take this particular precept, taught throughout the whole of the OT, established at creation by God himself, included in the 10 commandments, and chuck it because it was not mentioned in the NT?




Because it's in the 10 commandments(which we all recognize as moral) and because it was an ordinace established at creation, therefor showing it cannot be a Mosaic Ceremonial law, the burden of proof lies on the anti-Sabbitarians.


Ed, does God desire us not to murder? The law that is being referred to is not just the ceremonial part.

(Rom 2:20) An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.

Paul is showing that these people are teachers of the law. Now let's see how they teach this law that he is referring to all throughout Romans :

(Rom 2:21) Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?
(Rom 2:22) Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?
(Rom 2:23) Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonorest thou God?

So in context we can't say this was only talking about the ceremonial aspect(it was talking about that too, Rom. 2:24). If that's true, your statement above is saying that as Christians we should not abstain from stealing or committing adultery, because that's the 'law' that Paul is referring to.

Also, Donna says
How are we to interpret that? The Pharisees were judging Jesus because he and his disciplies were picking corn off. And Jesus replies by saying, "Remember when David went into the temple and ate the shewbread, that it wasn't lawful to eat?" And that's when the phrase comes up, "The sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath."

To me this sounds like he is saying that the Sabbath was not intended to be a burden, but a blessing. It wasn't supposed to be grim. He is saying that the Sabbath was made FOR man, that it was an institution to serve mans good. Not that man was made to serve the good of the Sabbath.

That could be a wrong interpretation, but I don't see how that in anyway teaches against the Sabbath.

More to come, I'll let ya'll respond.

The question for us is one of 'Principles".

I believe and teach that the guiding principles for the church , and individuals, in the NT, under the 'New covenant', are 'contained' in the NT declarations of grace, and expressed in 'grace' language such as "the royal law", "the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus", "law of liberty", "My commandments", "led by the Spirit", "walk in love", "under grace", etc. () They 'supercede', and are contrasted to the 'precepts' as given to Israel in the "Old Covenant" of the Mosaic Law, which was taken out of the way of Israel, in its entirety, and nailed to the cross personally by the Lord Jesus Christ. (Ac. 15:24-29; Gal. 5:1-2 ; Eph. 2:13-18; Col. 2:8-23) These NT principles specifically include 'esteeming of a day', and no 'need' to 'keep' "the Sabbath", or any other day, in that sense. (Rom. 14:5-6; Gal. 4: 9-10; Col. 2:16-17)

There is noting intrinsically wrong with this 'marking of a sabbath day', of itself, should one so desire.

It is just not any sort of a requirement.

And no, the mailman is still perfectly safe around me.

Ed

 

[Jarthur001]

humm

Is the Sabbath day only part of a Jewish law?

1Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. 2And on the seventh day God finished his work that he had done, and he rested on the seventh day from all his work that he had done. 3So God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it God rested from all his work that he had done in creation.

Were the 10 commandments given at creation?

Why did God rest? Did God need to rest from all the work He had done and therefore named the Sabbath "Sabbath", or was the name given because God did in fact rest? Why did God bless one day over all the others? Why is one day holy/set-apart from all others?

 

[christianyouth]

haha, good to hear Ed. I knew you wouldn'y be consistent with your theology.

Jk, thanks for clarifying.

 

[christianyouth]

Here are some links for those who want to reexamine this topic. The book by AW Pink you can probably read in a couple hours, and is a well argued, well written piece.

Remember the Sabbath Day, to keep it Holy by Green bagginns
http://greenbaggins.wordpress.com/2006/02/28/remember-the-sabbath-day-2/

Remember the Sabbath Day, to keep it Holy by Green bagginns

From Sabbath to Lord's Day by Green Baggins
http://greenbaggins.wordpress.com/2005/09/15/from-sabbath-to-lords-day-2/

The Christian Sabbath by A.W. Pink
http://members.aol.com/gregscv/sabbath.htm

J.C. Ryle on the Sabbath
http://www.fpcr.org/blue_banner_articles/ryle_sabbath.htm

I hope everyone considers a couple of points that have been made.

1) It was established at creation, and therefor cannot be seen as just being a Mosaic Ceremonial law. So even if Christ fulfilled the ceremonial aspect, there is no evidence for saying he fulfilled the moral aspect.

2) In Heb 4:1-10 we see that while there WAS a ceremonial aspect strictly for the Jews, there is also the moral aspect for NT Christians

3) That many of the passages that are used to disprove the Sabbath are really arguments against Judaizers, people who were saying they could be justified by keeping the OT ceremonial/moral law.

We need to assume continuity. When Solomon says, "Raise up a child in the way he shall go, and when he is old he will not depart from it", we don't have to find a NT counterpart for this. There is none. If we don't assume continuity, we can say, "The principle of raising your children in a way that insures godliness is for the Old Covenant and therefor doesn't have any relevance to us in the New Covenant."

When it says, "To the man who pleases him, he will give wisdom, knowledge, and happiness" do we have to look for a New Testament affirmation of this? No. But from what it sounds like, when people say, "The New Testament no where affirms the Sabbath as binding" so therefor the Sabbath isn't binding, then we have to say that God giving happiness to the one who pleases him is no longer true, as well.

 

[nunatak]

I am not sure if those posting on this thread are trying to make the case that we must keep the Sabbath. I you are, then:

Col 2:8 See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ.
Col 2:9 For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily,
Col 2:10 and you have been filled in him, who is the head of all rule and authority.
Col 2:11 In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ,
Col 2:12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead.
Col 2:13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,
Col 2:14 by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross.
Col 2:15 He disarmed the rulers and authorities and put them to open shame, by triumphing over them in him.
Col 2:16 Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath.
Col 2:17 These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.
Col 2:18 Let no one disqualify you, insisting on asceticism and worship of angels, going on in detail about visions, puffed up without reason by his sensuous mind,
Col 2:19 and not holding fast to the Head, from whom the whole body, nourished and knit together through its joints and ligaments, grows with a growth that is from God.
Col 2:20 If with Christ you died to the elemental spirits of the world, why, as if you were still alive in the world, do you submit to regulations--
Col 2:21 "Do not handle, Do not taste, Do not touch"
Col 2:22 (referring to things that all perish as they are used)--according to human precepts and teachings?
Col 2:23 These have indeed an appearance of wisdom in promoting self-made religion and asceticism and severity to the body, but they are of no value in stopping the indulgence of the flesh.

 

[EdSutton]

haha, good to hear Ed. I knew you wouldn'y be consistent with your theology.

Jk, thanks for clarifying.

I'm perfectly consistent, here. One is not required to expend some unnecessary effort.

The rural mailbox is out of sight on the road, so I don't generally even see the mailman.

Plus, my dog has a bad attitude by nature, and that, in itself, saves me a lot of effo...

Ed

 

[swaimj]

I think Martin has given outstanding explanations on this thread. Christianyouth said:

In Heb 4:1-10 we see that while there WAS a ceremonial aspect strictly for the Jews, there is also the moral aspect for NT Christians

Today, Christ is our Sabbath rest. Every day we rest in him by faith and participate in salvation. Because of what Christ has done we have "ceased from our own works" and we "rest in him". The author of Hebrews is teaching that we do not need to observe a certain day as our Sabbath because that idea has been superceded by our rest in Christ. When is that rest? "Today" says the author of Hebrews. Enjoy it my friend!

 

[nunatak]

I think Martin has given outstanding explanations on this thread. Christianyouth said:
Today, Christ is our Sabbath rest. Every day we rest in him by faith and participate in salvation. Because of what Christ has done we have "ceased from our own works" and we "rest in him". The author of Hebrews is teaching that we do not need to observe a certain day as our Sabbath because that idea has been superceded by our rest in Christ. When is that rest? "Today" says the author of Hebrews. Enjoy it my friend!

what he said!

 

[Joe]

What example did God himself set? WWGD

What example did Jesus set? WWJD

Is it ALSO one of the ten commandments?

If so, then it's pretty important! Even if you are not a jew. The general consensus here on the BB imo, is we are to follow it "in spirit" unless commanded again in the NT

So.... how do we follow this commandment " in spirit?"

Well the only way to follow it AT ALL, whether "in spirit" or by adhering to it as law, is to rest on the specific day in which this command entails.

This would be on Saturday (actually fri sundown - sat sundown)



Romans 14:5-6
In the same way, some think one day is more holy than another day, while others think every day is alike. You should each be fully convinced that whichever day you choose is acceptable. Those who worship the Lord on a special day do it to honor him. Those who eat any kind of food do so to honor the Lord, since they give thanks to God before eating. And those who refuse to eat certain foods also want to please the Lord and give thanks to God.

It appears if you are convicted to honor the correct Sabbath day, then you must do so. We are to be fully convinced in our own mind of what is acceptable to the Lord.

Colossians 2:16-17
Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

 

[RockRambler]

Jesus gave us 2 commandments:

Matthew 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
Matthew 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Matthew 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Matthew 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Matthew 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Plus this:

John 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. 35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

When man loves one another as Jesus loved us....then we won't murder anyone, commit adultery, steal, bear false witness, etc.

 

[Whowillgo]

We must keep in mind what Christ coming accomplished

Mt 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
17 ¶ Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

The law has not passed away, Christ simply fulfilled the shall and shall nots for me. If I am a Christian then the indwelling Spirit

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, :godisgood:

accomplishes in me what the law did prior to fullfillment. If I do not quench or grieve the Spirit then it guides me with the conviction that the law convicted man in times past.

Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

In essence I am in obedience to the Sabbath when I am in obedience to the Lord.

 

[nunatak]

What example did God himself set? WWGD

What example did Jesus set? WWJD

Is it ALSO one of the ten commandments?[/I]

I don't think we can live our lives by WWJD. *What would Jesus do if he were here today? We are Jesus's hand and feet.*

I want to live my life by what Christ has already done. He did what I can NEVER do.

 

[Joe]

I don't think we can live our lives by WWJD. What would Jesus do if he were here today? We are Jesus's hand and feet. I want to live my life by what Christ has already done. He did what I can NEVER do

Alright but it doesn't matter that you feel it's impossible. It doesn't let us off the hook.

We are to strive daily to be as Christlike as possible in what we do, think, our actions etc..

“Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:” Phil 2:5

"Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye". Col 3:13

I don't understand what you mean by "You want to live your life by what Christ has already done" Christ died for your sins so you can have salvation.

We are his hands and feet yes, Jesus is the head of the church yet it doesn't negate the fact he made us in his image and expects us to strive to be more like him (Christlike) in everything.


“But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.” 2 Corinthians 3:1

Whenever there is a grey area, it is better imo to error on the side of caution to follow in God's image and Christ's footsteps.

 

[nunatak]

Alright but it doesn't matter that you feel it's impossible. It doesn't let us off the hook.

great point

We are to strive daily to be as Christlike as possible in what we do, think, our actions etc..

“Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:” Phil 2:5

"Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye". Col 3:13

Yes. But can I generate this? Make it happen by willing it? Or, like Mary, sit at Christ's feet, and be complete in him? I don't mean to sound crazy, but man, I AM A SINNER. Okay? Christ is everything to me.

I don't understand what you mean by "You want to live your life by what Christ has already done" Christ died for your sins so you can have salvation.

Yes, just that. Live my life based on Christ's death, resurrection, which is the power of God unto salvation.

We are his hands and feet yes, Jesus is the head of the church yet it doesn't negate the fact he made us in his image and expects us to strive to be more like him (Christlike) in everything.

I get that. But does the body have a choice? Do the hands have a choice but to obey the brain? Neither does Christ's body. He works in us to will and to do according to his good pleasure.

Whenever there is a grey area, it is better imo to error on the side of caution to follow in God's image and Christ's footsteps.

I don't see a grey area, just Christ. I don't mean to sound Holy, if I do, I don't mean to. All of my righteousnesses, all of my good intentions, are as filthy rags.

 

[EdSutton]

great point


Yes. But can I generate this? Make it happen by willing it? Or, like Mary, sit at Christ's feet, and be complete in him? I don't mean to sound crazy, but man, I AM A SINNER. Okay? Christ is everything to me.

Yes, just that. Live my life based on Christ's death, resurrection, which is the power of God unto salvation.

I get that. But does the body have a choice? Do the hands have a choice but to obey the brain? Neither does Christ's body. He works in us to will and to do according to his good pleasure.

I don't see a grey area, just Christ. I don't mean to sound Holy, if I do, I don't mean to. All of my righteousnesses, all of my good intentions, are as filthy rags.

Why would you not "mean to sound Holy", but call yourself a sinner, oh great sanctifed saint?? I'm not being facetious here, that is how the Bible describes you, when you are a believer!

Is "just a sinner" any proper way to refer to one that is now an heir with God and a joint-heir with Jesus Christ? Or one that is called a Sin in Christ Jessu" and "sanctified in Christ Jesus"?

I assure you that I have been guilty, in the past, of doing exactly this imoroper referring, as well. But no more!

The Bible, in the NT, calls believers Sanctified, Holy, and Saints (all from the Gk. root " 'agios") ~ 75+ times. There are, by contrast, only 2 references that ever possibly refer to any believer as a 'sinner'. Hence, we are on absolutely firm Biblical ground to refer to a brother or sister, and even oneself, in this manner of "holy". Our insistance (of which I also have in the past been just as guilty as anyone) of habitually referring to ourselves as "just a saved sinner", is to miss 95%+ of what the Scripture now says about us. ("holy" - Mk. 6:20; Rom. 12:1; Eph. 1:4; 5:27; Col. 1:22; 3:12; I Th. 5:27; I Ti. 2:8; Tit. 1:8; Heb. 3:1; I Pe. 1:15,16; 2:5,9; II Pe. 3:11; Jude 20; Rev. 2:6; "saint" - another 50+ refs; "sanctified" - another dozen or so)

As one of us, who is now called sanctified, holy, and a saint, we should all want to both be and also to "sound" holy, IMO.

Ed

 

[nunatak]

Thanks Ed. I am not there yet. But Christ is all in all, and I am complete in him.

 

[rstrats]

donnA,

re: "We do meet on Sunday, the first day of the week because the Bible calls it the Lord's day..."

I am not aware of any scripture that calls the first day of the week the "Lord’s Day". What do you have in mind?

 

[EdSutton]

donnA,

re: "We do meet on Sunday, the first day of the week because the Bible calls it the Lord's day..."

I am not aware of any scripture that calls the first day of the week the "Lord’s Day". What do you have in mind?

Hello rstrats. Long time, no post!

Incidentally, the response to your question oughtta' be good.

Ed